What color phelonion is a priest supposed wear to concelebrate a funeral Mass?

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Looks like it might just be a case of good manners trumping the need to advertise they are (in this case) Latin Rite clerics.
I suspect it is more a matter of Latin sensibilites and perception of the need for uniformity. It isn’t wrong by any means, it just isn’t really part of the Byzantine way of thinking. A cultural misunderstanding, if you will.

Some would consider it good manners to accept food when it is offered, when visiting a home. Others, from a different culture, would consider it obligatory to turn down the food the first time it is offered, and wait for the host to insist. Is one not showing good manners? It depense upon your perpective.

If Mother Theresa were invited to a state dinner where the dress was specified as “Black Tie”, was she showing bad manners to show up in her habit? Would someone from another culture be showing bad manners to come in the best dress clothes of his or her culture, even if it was not a tuxedo or floor length formal dress?
 
There is confusion here between respecting the practices of the Eastern Churches on the one hand, and mixing the rubrics of the various Churches on the other hand.

Rubrics apply to whatever service is being celebrated. The priest does not “bring” his own rubrics when he joins the celebration at another ritual Church.
I don’t think anybody is confused, we just disagree. 🙂 But just in case… it is my understanding that vestments and liturgical color are prescribed by the rubrics. So why an exception for one and not the other?

I know what my own pastor has told me, and what my own bishop has done, and my former bishop and metropolitan. None of these men is known for doing his own thing - they each have shown a commitment to obedience and good litury - and I don’t think they are confused. That’s good enough for me.
 
I don’t think anybody is confused, we just disagree. 🙂 But just in case… it is my understanding that vestments and liturgical color are prescribed by the rubrics. So why an exception for one and not the other?
As I’ve already posted. It is not an exception for one and not the other.

One rule says that the visiting priest wears his own vestments.
Another rule defines the color(s) for the particular celebration. That’s defined by the rubrics.

You are the one confusing the two by trying to combine them. You are the one making the exception for one but not the other.

If you would just read what you typed here, you’ll see that the exception is being made by you.

You are claiming that the exception should be made for the color.
I know what my own pastor has told me, and what my own bishop has done, and my former bishop and metropolitan. None of these men is known for doing his own thing and I don’t think they are confused. That’s good enough for me.
If any one of them sent out an invitation reading “please wear X color” that’s the color the visitor would be expected to wear.
 
As I’ve already posted. It is not an exception for one and not the other.

One rule says that the visiting priest wears his own vestments.
Another rule defines the color(s) for the particular celebration. That’s defined by the rubrics.

You are the one confusing the two by trying to combine them. You are the one making the exception for one but not the other.

If you would just read what you typed here, you’ll see that the exception is being made by you.

You are claiming that the exception should be made for the color.
These are the rubrics that I was able to find regarding priests vestments at Mass. Strictly following these rubrics requires an exception for Eastern vestments, as they are simply different.
IV. Sacred Vestments
335. In the Church, which is the Body of Christ, not all members have the same function. This diversity of offices is shown outwardly in the celebration of the Eucharist by the diversity of sacred vestments, which must therefore be a sign of the function proper to each minister. Moreover, these same sacred vestments should also contribute to the decoration of the sacred action itself.*** The vestments worn by Priests and Deacons, as well as the attire worn by lay ministers, are blessed before being put into liturgical use according to the rite described in the Roman Ritual***.


%between%
336. The sacred garment common to all ordained and instituted ministers of any rank is the alb, to be tied at the waist with a cincture unless it is made so as to fit even without such. Before the alb is put on, should this not completely cover the ordinary clothing at the neck, an amice should be used. The alb may not be exchanged for a surplice, not even over a cassock, on occasions when a chasuble or dalmatic is to be worn or when, according to the norms, only a stole is worn without a chasuble or dalmatic.
337. The vestment proper to the Priest Celebrant at Mass and during other sacred actions directly connected with Mass is the chasuble worn, unless otherwise indicated, over the alb and stole
.
You’ll probably consider this nitpicking, but Byzantine vestments have not been blessed according the rite described in the Roman Ritual. They have been blessed according to a different rite. This alone necessitates a (small) exception to the rubric.

Byzantine vestments do not include an alb, and amice, or a chasuble. Yes, they have equivalents, but they are different garments. They make no mention of the wearing of several items specific to the Byzantine vestments. Again, exceptions must be made in order for a Byzantine (or other) Eastern priest to wear his own vestments.

You say that I am making these exceptions, but I see no provision for Byzantine vestments contained in these rubrics.
 
These are the rubrics that I was able to find regarding priests vestments at Mass. Strictly following these rubrics requires an exception for Eastern vestments, as they are simply different.

You’ll probably consider this nitpicking, but Byzantine vestments have not been blessed according the rite described in the Roman Ritual. They have been blessed according to a different rite. This alone necessitates a (small) exception to the rubric.

Byzantine vestments do not include an alb, and amice, or a chasuble. Yes, they have equivalents, but they are different garments. They make no mention of the wearing of several items specific to the Byzantine vestments. Again, exceptions must be made in order for a Byzantine (or other) Eastern priest to wear his own vestments.

You say that I am making these exceptions, but I see no provision for Byzantine vestments contained in these rubrics.
You are completely confused.

You are confusing and combining different issues all over the place.

There are no rubrics in the Roman Missal for how a Byzantine priest wears his vestments. Of course not. Neither will one find the Latin style vestments defined in the Eastern rubrics. The very fact that you are looking for such only proves that you do not understand what you are posting.

There is a rule that a priest wears his own style of vestment when he visits another ritual Church. That is articulated in the Instruction that accompanied the current Eastern code of canon law. It’s probably mentioned in many other places, but that’s the primary source.

On the other hand the color for vestments is defined by the rubrics for any particular service (whether that’s a Byzantine Divine Liturgy on the Feast of the Holy Cross or a Latin Baptism, or Coptic Night Prayer during Great Lent, or anything else.) The calendar is also relevant here.
  • The rubrics specify the color for the particular celebration.
  • The law specifies that each priest wears his own vestments.
No matter how many times I keep trying to explain to you that these 2 are different norms, you insist (for some reason) to combine and confuse them.
 
You are completely confused.

You are confusing and combining different issues all over the place.

There are no rubrics in the Roman Missal for how a Byzantine priest wears his vestments. Of course not. Neither will one find the Latin style vestments defined in the Eastern rubrics. The very fact that you are looking for such only proves that you do not understand what you are posting.

There is a rule that a priest wears his own style of vestment when he visits another ritual Church. That is articulated in the Instruction that accompanied the current Eastern code of canon law. It’s probably mentioned in many other places, but that’s the primary source.

On the other hand the color for vestments is defined by the rubrics for any particular service (whether that’s a Byzantine Divine Liturgy on the Feast of the Holy Cross or a Latin Baptism, or Coptic Night Prayer during Great Lent, or anything else.) The calendar is also relevant here.
  • The rubrics specify the color for the particular celebration.
  • The law specifies that each priest wears his own vestments.
No matter how many times I keep trying to explain to you that these 2 are different norms, you insist (for some reason) to combine and confuse them.
Fr. David, I respect and appreciate your contribution to this forum, especially in liturgy and sacraments. I believe I have learned much from you over the years.

I am aware of all these details that you have given. In order to clear up any confusion I might have had, I consulted with my own pastor, whom I know, trust and respect. He gave me an answer to the best of his ability, based upon his own knowledge, experience and perpective. You have done the same. I have also looked at the public example of my own bishop and metroplitan, as well as a number of other Eastern Catholic heirarchs, in a variety of situatons. I do not believe them all to be wrong.

I really am not confused about this matter. We simply disagree, and I think that is fine. It is entirely possible that I am wrong and if I’m convinced otherwise, I’d be happy to acknowledge it. Since I personally lack the background in this matter, I’d have to take your arguments to others, and my pastor doesn’t quite have my passion for getting into the nitty-gritty of this stuff on the internet, so I think I’ll just leave him alone. Mabye I’ll ask my bishop the next time I see him, or maybe I’ll learn to just let this go, as it ultimately is above my pay grade.

I have learned that the answer that one gets in these inter-ritual matters very much is determined by the rite of the expert asked. I have a friend with a complicated situation who has yet to get a definitive answer about whether she is Byzantine or Roman Rite. She has asked a number of canon lawers, with both the Latin diocese and the Byzantine eparchy. The Byzantine canon lawyers have invariably told her that she is Byzantine rite. Predictably, the Latin Rite canon lawyers have told her the opposite. Perhaps these matters aren’t as clear-cut as either of us would like, as good and knowledgable people can and do disagree.
 
The idea persists on this thread that our clergy have bad “manners” and are somehow disruptive if they wear vestments which for good reason do not match the color “X” in some “please wear X color” invitation.

I trust our EC clergy to vest according to the directives and rubrics of his typikon. I also trust that our EC clergy vest with reverence and with respect for the Church where they are a visitor.

If his vestment color is other than the “X” given on the invitation sent to both Latin and EC clergy it is offensive to say that wearing that vesture is a show of poor manners in this visitor, Might there be the occasional EC clergy who do whatever pleases them personally, just as there are in the Latin Church? Yes. But when EC clergy come vested in a color that for good reason is other than the “X” which the Latin Church clergy are wearing I say it is none of our business. That is between him and his bishop who has trusted this clergyman to serve at this liturgy. If it bothers anyone present, or if they are merely curious about the difference, they certainly can ask the priest or deacon, or hierarch, tho might have a challenge to get to ask the hierarch, the reason for the color of his vestments in this service.
 
You are completely confused.

You are confusing and combining different issues all over the place.

There are no rubrics in the Roman Missal for how a Byzantine priest wears his vestments. Of course not. Neither will one find the Latin style vestments defined in the Eastern rubrics. The very fact that you are looking for such only proves that you do not understand what you are posting.

There is a rule that a priest wears his own style of vestment when he visits another ritual Church. That is articulated in the Instruction that accompanied the current Eastern code of canon law. It’s probably mentioned in many other places, but that’s the primary source.

On the other hand the color for vestments is defined by the rubrics for any particular service (whether that’s a Byzantine Divine Liturgy on the Feast of the Holy Cross or a Latin Baptism, or Coptic Night Prayer during Great Lent, or anything else.) The calendar is also relevant here.
  • The rubrics specify the color for the particular celebration.
  • The law specifies that each priest wears his own vestments.
No matter how many times I keep trying to explain to you that these 2 are different norms, you insist (for some reason) to combine and confuse them.
What happens when there is a suggestion like - wear green for Latin ordinary time, but there is no green vestment for say, a Syro-Malankara priest? It’s possible to get one made I guess, however, I’ve never seen a totally green Malankara vestment in India or anywhere else.

Here’s a picture of the Maronite Patriarch in Rome wearing the closest color to the Roman ordinary time vestment, but the other Easterners in their normal colors:
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/45...xx49Lq2nTBtL1PB5sQ3T4n1T8QjTPho8HCVdgoXKoRw==
 
The idea persists on this thread that our clergy have bad “manners” if they wear vestments which for good reason do not match the color “X” in some “please wear X color” invitation.

I trust our EC clergy to vest according to the directives and rubrics of his typikon. I also trust that our EC clergy vest with reverence and with respect for the Church where they are a visitor.

If his vestment color is other than the “X” given on the invitation sent to both Latin and EC clergy to then say, as has been said here repeatedly, that wearing that vesture is a show of poor manners in this visitor is offensive to me as an Eastern Catholic who holds our clergy, East and West, in high regard. Might there be the occasional EC clergy who do whatever pleases them personally, just as there are in the Latin Church? Yes.

But when EC clergy come vested in a color that for good reason is other than the “X” which the Latin Church clergy are wearing I say it is none of our business. That is between him and his bishop who has trusted this clergyman to serve at this liturgy. If it bothers anyone present, or if they are merely curious about the difference in color, they certainly can ask the priest or deacon, or hierarch, tho might have a challenge to get to ask the hierarch, the reason for the color of his vestments in this service.
 
Here’s a picture of the Maronite Patriarch in Rome wearing the closest color to the Roman ordinary time vestment, but the other Easterners in their normal colors:
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/45...xx49Lq2nTBtL1PB5sQ3T4n1T8QjTPho8HCVdgoXKoRw==
That looks to be another angle of the photo in post #56, and while I believe he was present, I don’t see the Maronite patriarch in either. The green phaino is worn by Moran Mor Ignation Yowsef III of the SCC.
 
What happens when there is a suggestion like - wear green for Latin ordinary time, but there is no green vestment for say, a Syro-Malankara priest? It’s possible to get one made I guess, however, I’ve never seen a totally green Malankara vestment in India or anywhere else.

Here’s a picture of the Maronite Patriarch in Rome wearing the closest color to the Roman ordinary time vestment, but the other Easterners in their normal colors:
http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/45...xx49Lq2nTBtL1PB5sQ3T4n1T8QjTPho8HCVdgoXKoRw==
In the US I’ve actually seen a few Syriac style vestments in green. It’s a bit funny that you should ask because I just happen to know exactly where to find one.

Not that I’ve ever had the privilege to meet him but here is HH Baselios (if I’m reading the caption correctly) persecution.in

Really the answer to your question is that the visiting priest would probably wear white.

Depending on the circumstances (like how many other priests were attending) the Latin priest might even choose to wear white, even though it’s Ordinary Time, so that they match each other.

The visiting priest is not expected to go out and have a special vestment made—of course not.

The point is not about making burdens for people. It is not about denying the liturgical heritage of any ritual Church.

It is the simple fact that the rubrics (and one of those is vestment color) are those of the overall celebration. A visiting priest brings a set of vestments (if needed), but he does not combine rubrics from his own tradition when he visits in another.
 
In the US I’ve actually seen a few Syriac style vestments in green. It’s a bit funny that you should ask because I just happen to know exactly where to find one.

Not that I’ve ever had the privilege to meet him but here is HH Baselios (if I’m reading the caption correctly) persecution.in

Really the answer to your question is that the visiting priest would probably wear white.

Depending on the circumstances (like how many other priests were attending) the Latin priest might even choose to wear white, even though it’s Ordinary Time, so that they match each other.

The visiting priest is not expected to go out and have a special vestment made—of course not.

The point is not about making burdens for people. It is not about denying the liturgical heritage of any ritual Church.

It is the simple fact that the rubrics (and one of those is vestment color) are those of the overall celebration. A visiting priest brings a set of vestments (if needed), but he does not combine rubrics from his own tradition when he visits in another.
Why do you think this is so hard to grasp for so many? Is it about genuine ignorance or confusion? Is it about misplaced pride?
 
That looks to be another angle of the photo in post #56, and while I believe he was present, I don’t see the **Maronite patriarch **in either. The green phaino is worn by Moran Mor Ignation Yowsef III of the SCC.
His Beatitude Mar Bechara Boutros al-Rahi was definitely at the Extraordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops in the Vatican, Oct. 2014. I saw a number of pictures of him but in none was he vested. They were pictures in meetings etc., not in liturgy.

The SCC is an Oriental Catholic Church isn’t it? Aren’t they West Syrian Rite not Byzantine?
 
In the US I’ve actually seen a few Syriac style vestments in green. It’s a bit funny that you should ask because I just happen to know exactly where to find one.

Not that I’ve ever had the privilege to meet him but here is HH Baselios (if I’m reading the caption correctly) persecution.in
Thanks for posting HH’s picture here, however, this was probably brought from India - the Malankara/Syriac Churches don’t particularly have a Liturgical color sequence (although lately, some are following some of the Byzantine tradition, especially those who have attended Byzantine seminaries), except for the common, but not universal black (rubric is ‘penitential/simple’ not a color) for the Great and Holy Friday of Crucifixion.
Really the answer to your question is that the visiting priest would probably wear white.
How would this fulfill the requirement? The person that doesn’t know why the priest is wearing white can still question - ‘hey this guy is trying to show off by not wearing green like the rest of them!’
It is the simple fact that the rubrics (and one of those is vestment color) are those of the overall celebration. A visiting priest brings a set of vestments (if needed), but he does not combine rubrics from his own tradition when he visits in another.
I don’t know, I’ve seen many combos in my lifetime. From the Pope on down to the local bishop and priest. In fact, I’d say some level of combo is the norm and a ‘strict adherence to the particular Tradition of the host’ is the exception in practice.
Remember Pope Benedict’s visit to the Melkites a few years back? How about the Latin Rite Armenian Mass by Pope Francis? Or nearly every Eastern Liturgy with Pope JP2?
 
Thanks for posting HH’s picture here, however, this was probably brought from India - the Malankara/Syriac Churches don’t particularly have a Liturgical color sequence (although lately, some are following some of the Byzantine tradition, especially those who have attended Byzantine seminaries), except for the common, but not universal black (rubric is ‘penitential/simple’ not a color) for the Great and Holy Friday of Crucifixion.
The colors are “happy” or “sad.”
They don’t need to be precise.
If the celebration calls for vestments in a “happy” color, then that’s what should be worn.
The point is to follow what the rubrics say.
How would this fulfill the requirement? The person that doesn’t know why the priest is wearing white can still question - ‘hey this guy is trying to show off by not wearing green like the rest of them!’
You asked the question, about a particular situation. If he has a white vestment, that would be the best option (in your scenario).
You asked about this happening at a Latin Mass. The Latin rubrics say that white can be used as a substitute for other colors (in most circumstances).
As I said, in that case, I would personally probably use a white vestment (rather than green) to match my guest.
There is no one answer, but different possible responses depending on the circumstances.
I don’t know, I’ve seen many combos in my lifetime. From the Pope on down to the local bishop and priest. In fact, I’d say some level of combo is the norm and a ‘strict adherence to the particular Tradition of the host’ is the exception in practice.
Remember Pope Benedict’s visit to the Melkites a few years back? How about the Latin Rite Armenian Mass by Pope Francis? Or nearly every Eastern Liturgy with Pope JP2?
In the East, the colors are not as strictly defined as in the West. Also, we don’t know the exact reasons why any one priest/bishop made a particular choice at that exact moment. I can’t comment on that.

All I can say is that in general it’s best to match the celebrant because the color for any celebration is determined by the rubrics that apply to the celebration, not the rubrics from a different ritual Church.

It is simply a matter of common courtesy and good manners to make an effort to bring the color that the host requests.

Also, we cannot look at Papal Masses for patterns because Papal celebrations are unique. Those are the only times that the various rituals actually can be mixed, because the Pope is a member of all the Churches. Papal ceremonies have their own rules that don’t apply to parishes. The funeral of St John Paul II was a good example. Different elements from the various liturgical families were combined (even though most of it was the Latin tradition). No such thing is allowed at parish (or even diocesan) services–not in the same way, and not to the same extent that happens at Papal services.

I am not saying that the color choice is a strict rule. Some flexibility, and some accommodation might be needed, especially in cases of necessity. For example, if the Malankara priest visits my parish, he might only have packed a single vestment. If he only has one, then he wears what he has. If he is visiting from his own parish 15 minutes away and he has access to a full closet of vestments, that’s different.

The same thing applies in reverse. If a Latin priest is invited to concelebrate at a Malankara service, he should wear what the host asks him to wear (whether that’s very specific, or it’s more general).

What concerns me is that people are under the false impression that the rubrics of “which color to choose” apply to the individual priest himself—that he “brings” his rubrics when he visits another ritual Church. That’s not how it works. The rubrics are determined by the liturgical books of the celebration itself.
 
As an outside observer, I find this discussion very interesting. And here I thought Judaism was packed with rituals and customs!
 
The norm is: “observing all the prescriptions of the liturgical books of the principal celebrant, having removed any liturgical syncretism and wearing the appropriate vestments and insignia of his own Church sui iuris”

CCEOCanon 701

Concelebratio inter Episcopos et presbyteros diversarum Erclesiarum sui iuris iusta de causa praesertim caritatem fovendi atque unionem inter Ecclesias manifestandi gratia de Episcopi eparchialis licentia fieri potest omnibus praescripta librorum liturgicorum primi celebrantis sequentibus, remoto duolibet syncretismo liturgico et retentis optabiliter vestibus liturgicis et insignibus propriae Ecclesiae sui iuris.

A concelebration between bishops and presbyters of different Churches sui iuris for a just cause, especially that of fostering charity, and for the sake of manifesting unity between the Churches, can be done with the permission of the eparchial bishop, while observing all the prescriptions of the liturgical books of the principal celebrant, having removed any liturgical syncretism and wearing the appropriate vestments and insignia of his own Church sui iuris.

Canon 707

§ 1. Circa panis eucharistici confectionem, preces a sacerdotibus ante celebrationem Divinae Liturgiae persolvendas, ieiunium eucharisticum servandum, vestes liturgicas, tempus et locum celebrationis et huiusmodi iure particulari uniuscuiusque Ecclesiae sui iuris normae accurate statui debent.

§ 1. The preparation of the Eucharistic bread, the prayers performed by the priests before the Divine Liturgy, the observance of the Eucharistic fast, liturgical vestments, the time and place of the celebration and other like matters must be precisely established by the norms of each Church sui iuris.

§ 2. Remota christifidelium admiratione licet uti vestibus liturgicis et pane alterius Ecclesiae sui iuris, si vestes liturgicae et panis propriae Ecclesiae sui iuris praesto non sunt.

§ 2. For a just cause and having removed any astonishment on the part of the Christian faithful, it is permissible to use the liturgical vestments and bread of another Church sui iuris.
 
The norm is: “observing all the prescriptions of the liturgical books of the principal celebrant, having removed any liturgical syncretism and wearing the appropriate vestments and insignia of his own Church sui iuris”

CCEOCanon 701

Concelebratio inter Episcopos et presbyteros diversarum Erclesiarum sui iuris iusta de causa praesertim caritatem fovendi atque unionem inter Ecclesias manifestandi gratia de Episcopi eparchialis licentia fieri potest omnibus praescripta librorum liturgicorum primi celebrantis sequentibus, remoto duolibet syncretismo liturgico et retentis optabiliter vestibus liturgicis et insignibus propriae Ecclesiae sui iuris.

A concelebration between bishops and presbyters of different Churches sui iuris for a just cause, especially that of fostering charity, and for the sake of manifesting unity between the Churches, can be done with the permission of the eparchial bishop, while observing all the prescriptions of the liturgical books of the principal celebrant, having removed any liturgical syncretism and wearing the appropriate vestments and insignia of his own Church sui iuris.

Canon 707

§ 1. Circa panis eucharistici confectionem, preces a sacerdotibus ante celebrationem Divinae Liturgiae persolvendas, ieiunium eucharisticum servandum, vestes liturgicas, tempus et locum celebrationis et huiusmodi iure particulari uniuscuiusque Ecclesiae sui iuris normae accurate statui debent.

§ 1. The preparation of the Eucharistic bread, the prayers performed by the priests before the Divine Liturgy, the observance of the Eucharistic fast, liturgical vestments, the time and place of the celebration and other like matters must be precisely established by the norms of each Church sui iuris.

§ 2. Remota christifidelium admiratione licet uti vestibus liturgicis et pane alterius Ecclesiae sui iuris, si vestes liturgicae et panis propriae Ecclesiae sui iuris praesto non sunt.

§ 2. For a just cause and having removed any astonishment on the part of the Christian faithful, it is permissible to use the liturgical vestments and bread of another Church sui iuris.
I’m still astonished that my church in the US sees fit to use Latin hosts. I don’t see any practical reason except laziness and laxity. Is that an acceptable reason?
 
I’m still astonished that my church in the US sees fit to use Latin hosts. I don’t see any practical reason except laziness and laxity. Is that an acceptable reason?
The Syro-Malabar particular law does not specify wafer or loaf and I do not know of the Syro-Malankara is similar or not:
Art. 139 - Eucharistic bread shall be made of wheat flour and shall have sufficient thickness.

It does seem appropriate to me to use the form of bread that is the ancient use.
 
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