What Constitutes "Full Knowledge" For a Mortal Sin

[jmcrae]

But why would God only give incontrovertible evidence to only a few people? Doing so would remove what is for most people the biggest obstacle to belief: lack of incontrovertible evidence. Why would God only choose certain people? This, I suppose, begs the answer that God works in ways that we humans cannot understand. Then, I posit, how are we to know anything about Him? How are we to know that He didn’t just give Moses the 10 Commandments as a test, that those rules are meant to be broken, that our fulfillment comes in embracing our most basic selves? It’s a pretty ridiculous idea, but if God is truly inscrutable…

I don’t think that God is “inscrutable” - in fact, He came to earth in human form to reveal Himself to us in terms we can understand - so, no - I don’t think that God is even trying to be obscure to us. He wants us to know Him. But we have to be open to the experience. You are right that there is no scientific evidence for what we believe - that’s because science is not about discerning God. Science is concerned only with the created universe. There are plenty of scientists who believe in God, because they know of no other explanation for how it is that everything has rules, and stays organized.

Science is not God - if you are measuring God with science, then again you have it backwards. We measure science by what God has revealed to us; not the other way around.

You wouldn’t use the child to gauge the height of the measuring stick; you’d use the measuring stick to gauge the height of the child, because the child’s height is constantly changing, whereas the measuring stick remains always the same. In the same way, science is always changing; God remains always the same.

This entire paragraph requires faith, so as long as that’s up in the air (because I really have never heard of scientific evidence for transubstantiation) I don’t think I should be talking about it.

And yet, it’s an occurrence that we experience at every Mass. Sure, there is no scientific explanation for it, but it still happens, every single time - and every single time, it blows me away.

 

[Brooklyn]

I don’t think that God is “inscrutable” - in fact, He came to earth in human form to reveal Himself to us in terms we can understand - so, no - I don’t think that God is even trying to be obscure to us.

Again, I have to disagree with this statement. Just recently on EWTN I heard a priest talking about the Trinity, and he said he felt the purpose of the Trinity is to remind us that we can never understand God, that he will always be beyond our comprehension. Isa 55:8 says: "“My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the LORD. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.” I can only speak for myself personally, but the more I think I understand, I realize how little I actually do understand about God. I don’t know how he can have no beginning and no end, I don’t know how he could create the universe out of nothing, I don’t know how he could empty himself of his divinity and come to earth as a man. Maybe you’re smarter than I am, but I don’t understand God at all. I don’t know how he can love me as he does, despite my sinfulness and his perfection. I just know that he does.

God is not what you imagine or what you think you understand. If you understand you have failed. ~Saint Augustine

 

[jmcrae]

Again, I have to disagree with this statement. Just recently on EWTN I heard a priest talking about the Trinity, and he said he felt the purpose of the Trinity is to remind us that we can never understand God, that he will always be beyond our comprehension. Isa 55:8 says: "“My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the LORD. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine.” I can only speak for myself personally, but the more I think I understand, I realize how little I actually do understand about God. I don’t know how he can have no beginning and no end, I don’t know how he could create the universe out of nothing, I don’t know how he could empty himself of his divinity and come to earth as a man. Maybe you’re smarter than I am, but I don’t understand God at all. I don’t know how he can love me as he does, despite my sinfulness and his perfection. I just know that he does.

 

[Brooklyn]

Brooklyn;6604810:

Obviously, yes, there are mysteries that we will never understand. My point is, Jesus came to the earth, not to confuse us, but to enter into a relationship with us, where we could know Him, and he could know us. God is not

deliberately trying to confuse us, and faith is not a game of God saying “what improbable things shall I get them to believe, today?” and then punishing us if we don’t “get it.”

That’s not what’s going on.

Also, it is not “the purpose of the Trinity” to remind us that we can’t know God fully. The Trinity is a description of God that we don’t fully understand, yet that we know to be true. It hasn’t got a “purpose” any more than the fact that the sky is blue has a “purpose” - it’s just a description of an experience of reality.

Of course, I agree that Jesus did not come to earth to confuse us. He came to earth to rescue us from death. But I have to go with St. Augustine’s statement: God is not what you imagine or what you think you understand. If you understand you have failed.

Can you honestly say you “understand” God? If so, in what way? Do you understand no beginning and no end? Do you truly understand the “Trinity” in any sense of the word? Do you understand how the bread and wine are transformed into Jesus Christ? Do you even understand how our sins are wiped clean and we are made into new creatures through his blood? Do you understand how Jesus can be in all the Catholic tabernacles of the world? Do you understand how he gave up his divinity to become a man? Like I said, maybe you’re smarter than me, because I don’t "get " God at all. I repeat, all I know is that he loves me and wants me to be with him. That is all I really understand, and I think that is all he expects me to understand.

 

[jmcrae]

Of course, I agree that Jesus did not come to earth to confuse us. He came to earth to rescue us from death. But I have to go with St. Augustine’s statement: God is not what you imagine or what you think you understand. If you understand you have failed.

Can you honestly say you “understand” God? If so, in what way? Do you understand no beginning and no end? Do you truly understand the “Trinity” in any sense of the word? Do you understand how the bread and wine are transformed into Jesus Christ? Do you even understand how our sins are wiped clean and we are made into new creatures through his blood? Do you understand how Jesus can be in all the Catholic tabernacles of the world? Do you understand how he gave up his divinity to become a man? Like I said, maybe you’re smarter than me, because I don’t "get " God at all. I repeat, all I know is that he loves me and wants me to be with him. That is all I really understand, and I think that is all he expects me to understand.

Well, I would say that He also expects us to understand and follow His commandments, and to understand the teachings of His Church as best we can, and be members of His Church, as well, but for the most part, I agree with you.

The person I was responding to is expressing the opinion that if you can’t understand every single little detail, then God is either playing a trick on us, or does not exist. I am trying to explain to him that we don’t have to believe blindly, God is not playing a trick, and it is possible to read things, hear things, experience things, and know things about God.

 

[aperture]

I hate to leave unmentioned your first post, since I can tell you really put some thought into it, but the whole thing relies on faith; faith that the crucifixion was God, that communion is God, that Adam and Eve and original sin are real. I’m not there yet.

The only way you can develop faith is just stepping out and believing something, even if you don’t understand it. Trust me, none of us truly understands transubstantiation. How does a piece of bread and cup of wine become the great God of the universe? We all struggled with that at one time or another. But that is where prayer comes in. If you truly pray to God, be very honest with Him and tell Him, this is a little much for you to believe, he will give you the faith you seek. As the father of a child healed by Jesus said, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief.

I really suggest just meditating on a crucifix. And if at all possible, please go and spend time in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Adoration is always best, but just going to any Catholic Church and spending time in front of the tabernacle will be just as helpful. If you spend time in the presence, of Christ, even if you don’t understand or even accept it, you will find it will have a profound effect on you, because it’s real.

As suggested, even though it might seem like the most boring thing to do, try to pray the Rosary. If you reach out to our Blessed Mother, again even if you don’t fully accept that it’s real, she will lead you to her Son.

My issue with this - this “try it, and you will probably find that you like it!” is that this is basically no different from a Muslim or Buddhist saying to me “try praying to Allah” or “try praying for enlightenment.” If my feeling fulfilled is the way in which this process bears fruition - well, Catholics/Christians hardly have a monopoly on that.

 

[Brooklyn]

I hate to leave unmentioned your first post, since I can tell you really put some thought into it, but the whole thing relies on faith; faith that the crucifixion was God, that communion is God, that Adam and Eve and original sin are real. I’m not there yet.

My issue with this - this “try it, and you will probably find that you like it!” is that this is basically no different from a Muslim or Buddhist saying to me “try praying to Allah” or “try praying for enlightenment.” If my feeling fulfilled is the way in which this process bears fruition - well, Catholics/Christians hardly have a monopoly on that.

I’m not sure how any of us can help you if you’re not willing to take any advice. None of us can wave a magic wand and poof! you are a faith filled Christian. Just as you have to work to build up your body, you have to work to build up your faith.

The first thing you need to realize is that you are a sinner in need of a saviour. If you don’t believe that, then you will see no need for God in your life. If you think that spirituality is just a matter of finding something that will make you feel good, then you will never see how Christianity is different. If you think you are basically a “good” person and just need to sort of fine tune things, then you will not see any need for the death of Jesus Christ or a reason to accept his sacrifice.

But you do seem to be searching, and we can’t expect that you will look at one of our posts say “Aha, the answer to everything.” I do hope you will continue on your search. When you’re sitting and feeling very confused and not understanding why there is so much evil in the world and why nothing really seems all that satisfying to you, maybe you will just talk to God and give him a chance. One thing I can guarantee, whether you believe it or not, Jesus Christ is constantly reaching out to you with his mercy and love, always inviting you to come to him. It’s up to you whether you answer or not. That is your free will.

 

[aperture]

I’m not sure how any of us can help you if you’re not willing to take any advice. None of us can wave a magic wand and poof! you are a faith filled Christian. Just as you have to work to build up your body, you have to work to build up your faith.

The first thing you need to realize is that you are a sinner in need of a saviour. If you don’t believe that, then you will see no need for God in your life. If you think that spirituality is just a matter of finding something that will make you feel good, then you will never see how Christianity is different. If you think you are basically a “good” person and just need to sort of fine tune things, then you will not see any need for the death of Jesus Christ or a reason to accept his sacrifice.

But you do seem to be searching, and we can’t expect that you will look at one of our posts say “Aha, the answer to everything.” I do hope you will continue on your search. When you’re sitting and feeling very confused and not understanding why there is so much evil in the world and why nothing really seems all that satisfying to you, maybe you will just talk to God and give him a chance. One thing I can guarantee, whether you believe it or not, Jesus Christ is constantly reaching out to you with his mercy and love, always inviting you to come to him. It’s up to you whether you answer or not. That is your free will.

But do you see why I am so hesitant to try praying the rosary or viewing the tabernacle? It’s because these pieces of advice are based on your own experience. You have tried these things; you have found them immensely fulfilling. Similarly, Muslims around the world find praying to Allah immensely fulfilling; Buddhists around the world find meditation immensely fulfilling. There isn’t any objective reason to choose one over the other, except that you are talking to me right now rather than a Muslim or Buddhist.

If I follow your advice and pray daily, attend Mass often, become a hard-core Catholic, and really become happy, I’ll never know if it’s because of Catholicism or because safe ritual and quite, calming prayer are generally positive things. I’ll never know whether Islam or Buddhism would have been better, and I’ll never have solid, objective ground.

Really, as I see it right now, there are a multitude of parallel paths. Many claim closeness with God, true fulfillment, eternal happiness…none of them seem different. I’m sure there are Jewish Brooklyns and Hindu jmcraes the world over, people who are genuinely committed to their religions and love them. The only reason I’m being steered to Catholicism right now is because I’m talking to the Catholic Brooklyn and jmcrae.

 

[Brooklyn]

But do you see why I am so hesitant to try praying the rosary or viewing the tabernacle? It’s because these pieces of advice are based on your own experience. You have tried these things; you have found them immensely fulfilling. Similarly, Muslims around the world find praying to Allah immensely fulfilling; Buddhists around the world find meditation immensely fulfilling. There isn’t any objective reason to choose one over the other, except that you are talking to me right now rather than a Muslim or Buddhist.

If I follow your advice and pray daily, attend Mass often, become a hard-core Catholic, and really become happy, I’ll never know if it’s because of Catholicism or because safe ritual and quite, calming prayer are generally positive things. I’ll never know whether Islam or Buddhism would have been better, and I’ll never have solid, objective ground.

Really, as I see it right now, there are a multitude of parallel paths. Many claim closeness with God, true fulfillment, eternal happiness…none of them seem different. I’m sure there are Jewish Brooklyns and Hindu jmcraes the world over, people who are genuinely committed to their religions and love them. The only reason I’m being steered to Catholicism right now is because I’m talking to the Catholic Brooklyn and jmcrae.

No other religion except Christianity has a God who offers himself as a saviour to save his creation. There is no other religion where you will see God hanging on a cross. Didn’t you ever wonder about that? Every other religion basically says you just need to be a “good” person and do what God tells you, and than you’ll be okay. Christianity says you are a hopelessly lost sinner, just as that child born with AIDS is doomed to die, and there is only one way to true life, and that is through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. No other religion says anything close to that. Only Christianity offers you the mercy and love of God. Only in Christianity does God reach out to you, no matter what you do. Jesus Christ tells us that without him, it is impossible to please God, but that with him, everything is possible. Jesus Christ says, you are a hopeless and helpless sinner. You cannot overcome on your own. You need me. No other religion says that. With every other religion, you are basically on your own. You are never on your own with Jesus Christ. In fact, if you are without him, that is because you have pushed him away. He will never voluntarily leave you.

You may not accept any of this, but please, don’t confuse the way of Christ with any other way. It is so completely different as to be in an entirely different universe.

 

[IntegraCatholic]

But do you see why I am so hesitant to try praying the rosary or viewing the tabernacle? It’s because these pieces of advice are based on your own experience. You have tried these things; you have found them immensely fulfilling. Similarly, Muslims around the world find praying to Allah immensely fulfilling; Buddhists around the world find meditation immensely fulfilling. There isn’t any objective reason to choose one over the other, except that you are talking to me right now rather than a Muslim or Buddhist.

You are right in some sense. Ultimately, faith is a gift of God. You can’t “will” yourself into faith. I highly recommend that you spend as much time as you possibly can earnestly praying to God for the gift of faith in this regard. As far as choosing between Christianity and other religions, the Church alone can be supported by fitting arguments and miracles. Get a book about Eucharistic miracles (especially Lanciano). Read about St. Januarius’s blood, which liquifies every year on his feast day. Read about the innumerable cases of the incorruptibles from the Middle Ages and after (before modern means of preserving bodies). Read about the lives of the saints! It is amazing what you will find in the life of a St. Vincent Ferrer and in a St. Gregory the Wonder-worker. There are such a superabundance of miracles that they cannot be explained away.

Read apologetics books about the reasonableness of the Catholic faith. It cannot be proved by reason because it is faith, but it can be explained as far as possible by reason and be shown not to contradict reason. Judaism is illogical; look at all the prophesies that point to our Lord Jesus Christ in the Old Testament that they ignore! Mohammedanism is illogical. They say that God can contradict himself! The Eastern religions are irrational; they deny the existence of one God, which can be proved by reason alone. While the Catholic faith cannot be demonstrated by reason, it is the only religion that cannot be disproven by reason. All these other religions are contrary to reason.

Furthermore, consider, what is more full of love than a God willing to be made less than an insect compared to himself, to be made man, to suffer, die, to give himself to us in the Blessed Sacrament! Truly no nations gods are so nigh to it as our true God is close to us! (Deut. 4. 7.) How inspiring such a concept is! And read the lives of the early martyrs and how the conquered all human respect and convinced pagans to embrace the faith by their good example alone. How inspiring! A certain non-Catholic said that nothing is more beautiful than the Catholic faith, though he never brought himself to accept it. Don’t be that person! Pray to God for grace; he is always willing to bestow it upon those who call upon his name in truth.

 

[Brooklyn]

aperture, I think this quote might apply to you:

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.
Gilbert K. Chesterton

Just something to think about. God bless you in your search.

 

[aperture]

The Eastern religions are irrational; they deny the existence of one God, which can be proved by reason alone.

Wait, what? How?