What constitutes stealing music?

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I think you are taking this way out of proportion. I actually couldn’t believe it when you compared stealing to listening to music on youtube.

It is not the same. The person might have bought the song and is simply sharing it by letting you listen to it. Its not the same as stealing, especially if the artists actually uploads it.

Youtube is not a downloading service. You aren’t stealing anything. 🤷
 
I think you are taking this way out of proportion. I actually couldn’t believe it when you compared stealing to listening to music on youtube.

It is not the same. The person might have bought the song and is simply sharing it by letting you listen to it. Its not the same as stealing, especially if the artists actually uploads it.

Youtube is not a downloading service. You aren’t stealing anything. 🤷
Ah, but that is where you and I disagree. What if someone listened to a song on YouTube until they got tired of that song, never listening to it again. If that song weren’t on YouTube, they might have bought the mp3 version of that song, so they could listen to it again after they heard it on the radio, etc. I guess the distinction lies in what you are buying when you buy a digital song or CD. Are you just buying the ability to listen to the song in its original format whenever you want, or are you buying the rights to do whatever you want with that song, such as burning extra personal copies, using tracks as background music for your latest home movie, transferring tracks to portable music players? If the former, then how isn’t listening to a song on YouTube robbing an artist of potential record sales?

In the past, I’ve heard of record companies implementing DRM in CDs that would infect Windows installations if users so much inserted the disc in their computer (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal) Should we morally, then, side with the artist or the record company?
 
Oh please. What’s “legal” about youtube?
news.viacom.com/news/Pages/youtubelitigation.aspx

So far, the courts have ruled in favor of Youtube.

I disagree with your objection to Youtube. They do not “allow” illegal music on their website. They vigorously remove illegal content. And, they do have a lot of music there with the blessings of the copyright owners.

I don’t know the details of Viacom’s lawsuit. I suspect it’s mostly an attempt to get some loot from Google’s deep pockets. I don’t think it’s fair to compare Youtube to P2P websites.
 
Ah, but that is where you and I disagree. What if someone listened to a song on YouTube until they got tired of that song, never listening to it again. If that song weren’t on YouTube, they might have bought the mp3 version of that song, so they could listen to it again after they heard it on the radio, etc. I guess the distinction lies in what you are buying when you buy a digital song or CD. Are you just buying the ability to listen to the song in its original format whenever you want, or are you buying the rights to do whatever you want with that song, such as burning extra personal copies, using tracks as background music for your latest home movie, transferring tracks to portable music players? If the former, then how isn’t listening to a song on YouTube robbing an artist of potential record sales?

In the past, I’ve heard of record companies implementing DRM in CDs that would infect Windows installations if users so much inserted the disc in their computer (see: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal) Should we morally, then, side with the artist or the record company?
I know exactly what you’re getting across, but if that was the case, the artists would not have uploaded it because they know that very well could have happened. They are sharing their music with you without the ability to buy it. So its really on them. You should not feel guilty.
 
If you still feel that uneasy about it then stop visiting YT…That simple.

Go out and buy the CD or buy the MP3 from ITunes.
 
Okay, guys, guys, guys. You and your youtube terror…

It’s story time:
I enjoy making AMV’s.
(Anime music videos, using footage from anime set to music, with some heavy duty editing. It’s my little hobby.)

And from doing this, I know aaaallll the pains of youtube and copyright laws.
(Many of these laws really should be tweaked for artistic matters, especially when it’s the record companies taking issue to something the artists themselves don’t mind.)

Anyway, youtube has CRACKED DOWN in recent years. They have censors and stuff when you upload a video. It can tell what song’s on there, and if they don’t want it up, they don’t let you upload.

Basically, if it’s on youtube at all, whether uploaded by the official company or someone else, it’s allowed, it’s legal, it’s not stealing. The owner of the music gave permission for that content to be on youtube.

Otherwise it never would have made it past the uploading process.

I hope that helps a bit.
 
**Follow your conscience. I have been having very similar issues latey. I actually deleted 30gb worth of music off of my computer because I either burned it from somebody or downloaded it illegally. Anyway, if you feel like what you’re doing is wrong, don’t do it! That’s the only “hard and fast rule” I can think of that applies to any give situation 🙂 **
 
Hi Everyone:

It is worth pointing out in this space that some jurisdictions (such as Canada) have effectively legalized the use of sharing music online, whether paid or free. Here in Canada, for example, the government places a “levy” (tax) on all blank CDs, which is used to compensate the artists for any lost revenue. Canada’s current private copying levies are 24 cents apiece for cassettes (this law had been around a long time!) and 29 cents apiece for every blank CD that you buy. Two thirds of the tax goes to authors/publishers, about 20% to performers, and the rest to the record companies. In exchange, citizens of Canada are legally permitted to makes copies of music for their own personal, noncommercial use. You’re just not allowed to mass produce CDs and sell them, but a copy for yourself is just fine. Now they’re batting around a proposal in the courts about whether there should be a tax on other forms of media too…say MP3 players, Ipods, whatever. But this has not yet been decided (the last time it went before the judges, the court ruled there was no legal right to put a levy/tax on MP3 players. That was back in 2008, I believe.)

My main point, I think, is that we should not assume that free downloads (getting music without paying anything) is automatically stealing, as some on the thread seem to posit…as in a sense, you’ve already paid for them with every blank CD you buy.

Those interested in following the intricacies of Canadian copyright law can do no better than Michael Geist’s Blog. The latest posts on the new Copyright Bill, C-32, is here:

michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5519/125/

Jacques
 
If you use limewire/frostwire/bearshare/any peer to peer file sharing program or downloading music from warez torrent sites, than you are stealing music.

Personally I would use anything from iTunes. Their free radio is good, and you can purchase songs for about a buck each.
 
Oh please. What’s “legal” about youtube?

news.viacom.com/news/Pages/youtubelitigation.aspx

It’s not the servivce that’s illegal, it’s the fact that they have allowed illegally obtained videos and music to be downloaded in the past, and making lots of money off that. When the artist “Prince” removed his videos from youtube, some people cried over it. Now, a few people have downloaded some of his videos under a vague “criticism” excuse.

Unless the video has the name of the musician and/or his current recording company, odds are it’s there illegally. What youtube allowed was wrong: they let stolen material onto their system and when caught, were told to have it removed.

The same thing happens with the media company I work for. Someone tells us our books are on some ‘file sharing’ site and we contact them to have it removed. And believe me, this has happened more than once.

Be careful. Too often, stolen music and/or videos ends up on places like youtube.

If the artist wants to push their own work, then you should go to yourfavoriteartist.com and find it there.

Peace,
Ed
Don’t forget that there are exceptions for fair use too (for example, parodies).

It’s complicated here in Canada too (I can’t remember whether the latest ruling said downloading is legal, illegal, illegal to upload, or whatever it was. Wikipedia suggests that the RCMP don’t care enough to actually investigate). I use iTunes Music Store.

A lot of artists put their music up on youtube now though. It’s basically free advertising for them. Someone can go and listen to their new song, and then they might buy the full song on iTunes (to which to usually have a link) or something (I do that all the time. I’ll often listen to a song on youtube before buying it because iTunes only has a 30 second preview).
 
Don’t forget that there are exceptions for fair use too (for example, parodies).

It’s complicated here in Canada too (I can’t remember whether the latest ruling said downloading is legal, illegal, illegal to upload, or whatever it was. Wikipedia suggests that the RCMP don’t care enough to actually investigate). I use iTunes Music Store.

A lot of artists put their music up on youtube now though. It’s basically free advertising for them. Someone can go and listen to their new song, and then they might buy the full song on iTunes (to which to usually have a link) or something (I do that all the time. I’ll often listen to a song on youtube before buying it because iTunes only has a 30 second preview).
Sad. Anything to circumvent the spirit and letter of the law. Viacom sued youtube, and lost, but is appealing the decision. Google has been sued by book publishers and lost. Now google is being sued by photographers and visual artists.

It’s not free advertising. That is false. Advertising is targeted. It is not a scattershot process. Why should I buy a song I can get for free?

Stealing means “I can get it for free.” That’s all.

Peace,
Ed
 
Don’t forget that there are exceptions for fair use too (for example, parodies).

It’s complicated here in Canada too (I can’t remember whether the latest ruling said downloading is legal, illegal, illegal to upload, or whatever it was. Wikipedia suggests that the RCMP don’t care enough to actually investigate). I use iTunes Music Store.

A lot of artists put their music up on youtube now though. It’s basically free advertising for them. Someone can go and listen to their new song, and then they might buy the full song on iTunes (to which to usually have a link) or something (I do that all the time. I’ll often listen to a song on youtube before buying it because iTunes only has a 30 second preview).
Hi Everyone:

Copyright law (the so-called “intellectual property” clauses) is actually quite complicated. Michael Geist, the Canada Research Chair of Internet/Ecommerce law at the University of Ottawa (whose blog I quoted earlier) keeps an exhaustive round-up of everything going on in Canadian Copyright law, here: michaelgeist.ca/ As you said, there are numerous exemptions to the “all music downloading is stealing” crowd, including fair use, parodies, educational work, research, and several more. The pull quote from your citation on File Sharing in Canada is here:

“Downloading music or films for personal use, or non-profit use is no longer targeted, and is legal.” Noël St-Hilaire, head of copyright theft investigations of the RCMP, said in an interview with Le Devoir."

Now if the head of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police’s own Copyright Legal Division says it’s legal in Canada, then we really ought not to worry about it anymore. The key is that this is only for personal/non-profit use. You can’t download a movie/album and burn thousands of copies and sell them. That is illegal, and has been punished here. I mean no disrespect to our American friends, but their law stops at the 49th parallel, and does not apply here. Many other countries (Europe, Australia, New Zealand, etc) has similar laws that, quite frankly, differ from the rather strict DMCA copyright laws present in the United States.

One of the reasons people are so confused about copyright is that the media changes so fast. Even in my lifetime, I was assured by the media companies that home taping (with cassettes!) with “kill the music industry”. The VCR, meanwhile was supposed to put the Movie Companies out of business, because people would “illegally” videotape programs off TV instead of going to the movie theaters (they actually believed this, back in the 1980s). Now we are told that computer downloads are the new evil that will destroy the media corporations. It’s the same old histrionics, only the medium has changed.

The reason why stealing is wrong is because you are depriving someone of the use of an object…if you take his car, he cannot drive it. But songs are not physical objects, and it is silly to apply laws designed for physical objects to abstract ideas. If you make a computer copy of someone’s CD, you are not depriving the owner of that CD of anything. He can still use it, play it, even give it away. The fact that you are legally allowed to give away your own purchased CDs shows that it is fallacious to argue that getting music for free is automatically theft.

Canadian copyright law says that “copyright comes into existence automatically, at the time the work was created, and, in the case of most works, it continues until the end of the calendar year in which the author of the work dies (regardless of whether the author has sold or assigned the copyright in the work or not), and continues for an additional period of 50 years”. It is largely derived from British copyright law, which is a Renaissance invention…there is nothing intrinsic about abstract ideas that “entitles” them to copyright protection. I myself have written about two dozen academic articles (and a couple of published books), which were put on Google and more specialized online journal databases…these were all copyrighted, but there was no effort to “compensate” me for the alleged “loss” I suffered from this, and people are “copying” my creative work all the time. Many of these were written before filesharing even existed, so it’s difficult to argue that the journals/publishers/editors earned the “rights” to redistribute them online when I sent them my efforts, as that option did not as yet exist. None of these companies have ever contacted me about redistributing my work, nor do I expect them to. Academic research would grind to a halt if we attempted to treat journals/books/papers as Media corporations attempt to treat songs (as profit-driven vessels).

Until the modern era, almost all music was created/produced by amateurs working under rich patrons. Musicians were “paid” by their live performances, primarily. The reason why we have so many problems with copyright law is because we have subordinated music to corporate interests…it has become a “commodity” instead of an art. Corporations have some rights, obviously, but they cannot subordinate the rights of individuals under justice and natural law.

Jacques
 
Very sad. Artists - all commercial artists - work for a corporate entity. The media company I work for hires commercial artists and writers. That’s how some of them make a living, as in my case, and how others make additional money. It is a long-standing process. If a musician signs with a recording company they get a contract. It is false to say anything negative about that. This includes professional photographers who work for a studio and who are sent on assignment.

The lie being pedalled today is you can take digital bits off some file stealing site and you are not taking anything tangible. Wrong. You are stealing something you can listen to or watch as often as you like. In the near future, computer games and movies will be delivered digitally, some are today.

A few years back, writers in Hollywood went on strike. Why? So they could get their monetary cut of movies and TV shows they wrote that will be rebroadcast on digital devices.

The rules for Intellectual Property are clear. I’ve read my fair share of the law and have been involved in contract negotiations. It all gets spelled out.

Today - go ahead, put your work online for nothing. No problem. Just don’t expect to make much money doing it. Live performances? Where? Booked by who? That’s why Booking Agents exist.

Peace,
Ed

What is being sold to the public is an immoral and illegal mindset - it’s alright to steal. It is not.
 
Hi Everyone:

I wanted to develop the idea about “tangibility” a little more, because I think it helps us to understand better what is going on here. I didn’t write of it yesterday because it would have made the discussion too unwieldy, but it might be possible to sketch out a few things that I think are guiding principles that apply to any digital work, be it a song, a movie, an ebook, a journal article, whatever. I agree that most musical artists today are commercial, as they work for corporate entities…but there’s no reason music has to be made on this model, and I think there are many compelling reasons to suggest that it would be better off if it did not (they include, but are not limited to, the increase of musical diversity, creativity, originality, and user satisfaction).

Upton Sinclair, the American author who documented the horrors of Chicago slaughterhouses in the 19th century, reminds us that “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it” This applies to both sides of this debate: my job depends upon the free and unrestricted flow of information, which is why Canadian laws routinely waive many copyright restrictions for educational institutions. My students would think I had gone mad if I said to them, ok, here’s how the new iEducate Store works…when I teach you a formula (say Snell’s law in optics), you pay me 99 cents (the iTunes model for songs)…if I teach you two formulas, that’s $1.98. This would be crazy even if I were teaching them original research that I myself had created, rather than anyone else (now admittedly my own contributions are rather small and insignificant, but they do exist, and could, potentially, be “billable” items, if I looked upon information in this way…but I don’t). Treating academic information/journal articles as discrete, billable corporate “units” is absurd; teaching would become impossible, and research would wither on the vine. Public libraries would cease to function if you had to pay a fee every time you wanted to read a book.

I am paid instead for my ability to research and teach, which is a sort of “performance art”…when I am practicing this art, I am helping my students learn (all learning is, at root level, a rearrangement of neurons in the brain, just as all digital data is, at root level, a rearrangement of magnetic bits on a hard drive). When you download a song, all you are doing, is rearranging bits on a drive that you already own. You are making an image or visualization of something that exists in another “brain” (the sharing computer); you are not taking anything from that computer at all, because that computer still has the magnetic bits that it had before, oriented in the same manner. Again, to “steal” something means that you are depriving someone else of the use of a real object that they already own…merely xeroxing a book does not destroy that book. When I create an image in my mind of a physical object, I do not destroy or damage the object in any way; if I have an eidetic memory, I might even be able to make a “perfect” copy of the object in my mind, but the tangible object is obviously not affected by my perception of it at all. And if I share my image (describe it in great detail), all I have done is reproduce that image (albeit imperfectly) in another mind; I have not lost my own image, rather I have made two, when before there was one. Filesharing is really more like “reproduction” in this sense, except that the offspring are exact clones, and their effective cost in resources is zero. Under this model, the downloading computer is rather like a student, if you will; as it reorders and restructures its sectors into greater and greater complexity, it is doing what we call “learning” in a human brain.

The Internet by its very nature is similar, as you can see in this very discussion board…there are no fees of any kind charged for the creative posts I make (or anyone else), and people are free to use pieces from them, quote them, copy them, or do whatever they want with them (and our colleagues at Google and the Wayback Archive) will helpfully cache/copy them for anyone else, long after we are gone. Imagine what would happen if you had to charge, say, 99 cents a thread (the iCatholicAnswersForumStore) for someone who wanted to read/copy/quote them! A profit-driven model is obviously a non-starter for a discussion board.

For an interesting “cautionary tale” on how the corporate model for the internet has gone disastrously wrong in understanding it, you can’t do better than Richard Stallman’s “The Right to Read”, given here: gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html I find the alleged “Right to Read” terrifying…hopefully you do too, and if you do, you’ll better understand where I am coming from.

I continue to maintain that the United States is not the world…while Americans may view song downloading as illegal because it is “stealing”, many countries (including my Canada) do not, and instead agree that making a copy of a song does not take the song away from anybody, and thus fails the legal test of theft.

Jacques
 
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