What could make life "not worth living?"

[PumpkinCookie]

Warning: sensitive, grieving, and scrupulous people should NOT read this thread. Just forget about this and have a good day.

When I was a Catholic, I was a big fan of Fulton Sheen. I still appreciate his masterful and dramatic presentations, and occasionally watch an episode of “Life Is Worth Living” on Youtube. I fully agree with the sentiment: I truly believe life is worth living. However, I do wonder if this general truth admits any exceptions? Can you think of a set of circumstances which would tip the balance of a human life toward “not worth it?” I can think of some examples from scripture:

• Jesus seems to think the life of Judas was “not worth it” in the sense that he admits it would have been “better” for him to never have been born in the first place.
• God seems to think all the antediluvian people (except Noah and family) were “not worth it” since he “regretted having made them.”
• Jesus says it would be better to die a violent death by drowning than live and cause (either simpletons, innocents, or children) to sin.

Can you think of a life that would not be worth living? What about the antichrist? Satan? Stalin? What about the multitudes of people who believe their lives aren’t worth it? Are they all insane? Stupid? Deceived?

Personally, my answer to this question is that a life lived in hell is simply not worth it, over all. The infinitude of torment that comprises that life for eternity totally outweighs any finite goods they may have experienced or provided for others.

For example: [rich famous tech billionaire couple]. [Couple’s foundation] has done so much good for humanity because of their vast wealth. But, they support contraception, so eternal hell is looking likely (NO, I am NOT “judging” them, just pointing out the facts). Even though they have benefited millions of people, I would still say their lives are probably not worth living, and it would have been better if they had never been born in the first place, if they end up in endless hell. The finite benefits they have provided to large numbers of people are still outweighed by the endless torment they will experience.

Another example: A baby born with some kind of degenerative disease that causes relentless excruciating pain and ends with death. The baby did not have time to be baptized and descends immediately and permanently to endless hell (although with less or different punishment than the benevolent billionaires mentioned above). Can it be said that this life is “worth it?” To whom? The parents? The doctors? The community? Maybe the bereaved parents will be “stronger” or “more loving” after they go through the process of grief? If we were to ask the baby what he or she thought, do you think he or she would agree that his or her life is “worth living?”

What I want to know is: why is this “wrong-headed?” Why is a life lived in endless hell “worth it?” Can you think of a reason? Make your case, but make it a positive case please. Like this:

“A life lived in endless hell is worth it because…[your answer here]…”

Also, it is possible there are other examples of lives that are not worth living. I can’t think of any, to be honest. However, make your case, but make it a positive case, like this:

“A life that is [circumstance here] is not worth living because [your answer here]…”

 

[meltzerboy]

Warning: sensitive, grieving, and scrupulous people should NOT read this thread. Just forget about this and have a good day.

When I was a Catholic, I was a big fan of Fulton Sheen. I still appreciate his masterful and dramatic presentations, and occasionally watch an episode of “Life Is Worth Living” on Youtube. I fully agree with the sentiment: I truly believe life is worth living. However, I do wonder if this general truth admits any exceptions? Can you think of a set of circumstances which would tip the balance of a human life toward “not worth it?” I can think of some examples from scripture:

• Jesus seems to think the life of Judas was “not worth it” in the sense that he admits it would have been “better” for him to never have been born in the first place.
• God seems to think all the antediluvian people (except Noah and family) were “not worth it” since he “regretted having made them.”
• Jesus says it would be better to die a violent death by drowning than live and cause (either simpletons, innocents, or children) to sin.

Can you think of a life that would not be worth living? What about the antichrist? Satan? Stalin? What about the multitudes of people who believe their lives aren’t worth it? Are they all insane? Stupid? Deceived?

Personally, my answer to this question is that a life lived in hell is simply not worth it, over all. The infinitude of torment that comprises that life for eternity totally outweighs any finite goods they may have experienced or provided for others.

For example: [rich famous tech billionaire couple]. [Couple’s foundation] has done so much good for humanity because of their vast wealth. But, they support contraception, so eternal hell is looking likely (NO, I am NOT “judging” them, just pointing out the facts). Even though they have benefited millions of people, I would still say their lives are probably not worth living, and it would have been better if they had never been born in the first place, if they end up in endless hell. The finite benefits they have provided to large numbers of people are still outweighed by the endless torment they will experience.

Another example: A baby born with some kind of degenerative disease that causes relentless excruciating pain and ends with death. The baby did not have time to be baptized and descends immediately and permanently to endless hell (although with less or different punishment than the benevolent billionaires mentioned above). Can it be said that this life is “worth it?” To whom? The parents? The doctors? The community? Maybe the bereaved parents will be “stronger” or “more loving” after they go through the process of grief? If we were to ask the baby what he or she thought, do you think he or she would agree that his or her life is “worth living?”

What I want to know is: why is this “wrong-headed?” Why is a life lived in endless hell “worth it?” Can you think of a reason? Make your case, but make it a positive case please. Like this:

“A life lived in endless hell is worth it because…[your answer here]…”

Also, it is possible there are other examples of lives that are not worth living. I can’t think of any, to be honest. However, make your case, but make it a positive case, like this:

“A life that is [circumstance here] is not worth living because [your answer here]…”

Before I answer, I would like to ask you a question. It seems that one of your main points is that if one ends up in hell, then whatever earthly pleasures one experiences and whatever good one has done toward others here on earth, is of no consequence. My question is do you believe the reverse? That is, if one ends up in heaven, then whatever pain and suffering one experiences and whatever bad one has done toward others here on earth, is of no consequence?

 

[Trident_H]

Well this thread made me a bit sad. But it’s really true actually. I suddenly realized that my life was not worth living. Unless I do something about that. Unless I work through the hard stuff and get better for it. But I mean even if I do there is no guarantee. I guess I’ve just got to work on things and take my chances.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[Regina7]

Before I answer, I would like to ask you a question. It seems that one of your main points is that if one ends up in hell, then whatever earthly pleasures one experiences and whatever good one has done toward others here on earth, is of no consequence. My question is do you believe the reverse? That is, if one ends up in heaven, then whatever pain and suffering one experiences and whatever bad one has done toward others here on earth, is of no consequence?

Yes, if one ends in heaven, then nothing else matters. Though I question whether a person who has hurt others significantly will end up in heaven.

 

[Regina7]

The person who ends up in hell may have some worth- perhaps that person will change the ways of another headed down the wrong path. Of course, this won’t matter to the person burning in hell.

An un baptized baby who dies will not go to hell. I believe this was clarified with Pope Paul VI, but I’m not positive. The logic is that only we choose heaven or hell. A baby, lacking any knowledge or ability to choose this, is not held accountable. The parents, on the other hand, will be held accountable.

 

[meltzerboy]

Yes, if one ends in heaven, then nothing else matters. Though I question whether a person who has hurt others significantly will end up in heaven.

If the latter repents, that is, seeks forgiveness from others, then one may be forgiven. But one has still hurt others initially.

Are you then agreeing with the OP that life on earth may not be worth living unless one goes to heaven? Even if one has done some good for others but ends by committing a mortal sin and does not go to heaven oneself?

 

[Regina7]

Yes, a person may seek forgiveness.

I think some people think that a life of pain on earth can’t be fruitful. Pain can have worth if we unite it to the cross.

I could do all sorts of good on earth (feed the poor, etc) but if I go to hell, then really what does it matter? If I’m not helping others get to heaven, does feeding someone a meal really matter in the scheme of life? Now, a person headed towards heaven will be helping others because that’s what Christians should do. But, yes, I could feed the hungry every day, but if I’m an abortionist on the side, then what is my life worth? Every sin affects the Church, personal or public.

 

[MarcoPolo]

A baby born with some kind of degenerative disease that causes relentless excruciating pain and ends with death. The baby did not have time to be baptized and descends immediately and permanently to endless hell

For Catholics, the above is not Catholic teaching, FYI.

Regarding your examples, they seem to focus on physical suffering. For Catholics, the answer to that comes in the example of Christ, who accepted suffering, and through it, brought about glory. And so we have some shadowy glimpse that suffering in union with Christ has redemptive value.

Scripture does hint that the hell-bound soul would be better off if never born (Matt. 26:24). But even in that case, would that souls example benefit others and is there “worth” to that life? You could probably argue yes in that sense.

 

[Lucretius]

Warning: sensitive, grieving, and scrupulous people should NOT read this thread. Just forget about this and have a good day.

When I was a Catholic, I was a big fan of Fulton Sheen. I still appreciate his masterful and dramatic presentations, and occasionally watch an episode of “Life Is Worth Living” on Youtube. I fully agree with the sentiment: I truly believe life is worth living. However, I do wonder if this general truth admits any exceptions? Can you think of a set of circumstances which would tip the balance of a human life toward “not worth it?” I can think of some examples from scripture:

• Jesus seems to think the life of Judas was “not worth it” in the sense that he admits it would have been “better” for him to never have been born in the first place.
• God seems to think all the antediluvian people (except Noah and family) were “not worth it” since he “regretted having made them.”
• Jesus says it would be better to die a violent death by drowning than live and cause (either simpletons, innocents, or children) to sin.

Can you think of a life that would not be worth living? What about the antichrist? Satan? Stalin? What about the multitudes of people who believe their lives aren’t worth it? Are they all insane? Stupid? Deceived?

Personally, my answer to this question is that a life lived in hell is simply not worth it, over all. The infinitude of torment that comprises that life for eternity totally outweighs any finite goods they may have experienced or provided for others.

For example: [rich famous tech billionaire couple]. [Couple’s foundation] has done so much good for humanity because of their vast wealth. But, they support contraception, so eternal hell is looking likely (NO, I am NOT “judging” them, just pointing out the facts). Even though they have benefited millions of people, I would still say their lives are probably not worth living, and it would have been better if they had never been born in the first place, if they end up in endless hell. The finite benefits they have provided to large numbers of people are still outweighed by the endless torment they will experience.

Another example: A baby born with some kind of degenerative disease that causes relentless excruciating pain and ends with death. The baby did not have time to be baptized and descends immediately and permanently to endless hell (although with less or different punishment than the benevolent billionaires mentioned above). Can it be said that this life is “worth it?” To whom? The parents? The doctors? The community? Maybe the bereaved parents will be “stronger” or “more loving” after they go through the process of grief? If we were to ask the baby what he or she thought, do you think he or she would agree that his or her life is “worth living?”

What I want to know is: why is this “wrong-headed?” Why is a life lived in endless hell “worth it?” Can you think of a reason? Make your case, but make it a positive case please. Like this:

“A life lived in endless hell is worth it because…[your answer here]…”

Also, it is possible there are other examples of lives that are not worth living. I can’t think of any, to be honest. However, make your case, but make it a positive case, like this:

“A life that is [circumstance here] is not worth living because [your answer here]…”

What is “meaning?” To a Christian, the goal of life is to know and love God. Anything less makes a life meaningless, because ultimately God is meaning. The book of Ecclesiastes is the best existential philosophy writing ever (even better than Kierkegaard), and it ends with the command to follow the commandments. Even Christianity does nihilism better than the nihilists! This Scripture is the best reflection of the world without the Incarnation.

From my personal life, I’ve rejected Western atheism on the grounds that it is nihilism: that it rejects meaning in the world. I’ve found, in part from meditating on Viktor Frankl, that a man must believe in meaning, else he distracts himself with carnal pleasures and television (not to mention its incoherence) I then learned that ultimately any philosophical position that accepts objective meaning, in a sense, a fortiori leads to the Christian view. In other words, all roads lead to Rome, but all those Roads lead out of Rome too: into the wild wilderness of subjectivist, meaningless nihilistic self worship. If one will not choose Christ, he is left with nothing.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Before I answer, I would like to ask you a question. It seems that one of your main points is that if one ends up in hell, then whatever earthly pleasures one experiences and whatever good one has done toward others here on earth, is of no consequence. My question is do you believe the reverse? That is, if one ends up in heaven, then whatever pain and suffering one experiences and whatever bad one has done toward others here on earth, is of no consequence?

This is a deep and insightful question. It is an excellent illustration of why I come to this forum, to discover new ways of thinking from different perspectives. I am still thinking about this. Unfortunately my earthly duties prevent me from thinking about this exclusively. I will get back to you soon.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

For Catholics, the above is not Catholic teaching, FYI.

Regarding your examples, they seem to focus on physical suffering. For Catholics, the answer to that comes in the example of Christ, who accepted suffering, and through it, brought about glory. And so we have some shadowy glimpse that suffering in union with Christ has redemptive value.

Scripture does hint that the hell-bound soul would be better off if never born (Matt. 26:24). But even in that case, would that souls example benefit others and is there “worth” to that life? You could probably argue yes in that sense.

That infants go to hell for nothing other than original sin is logically implied by the Church’s infallible statements.

The souls of those who die in mortal sin or with original sin only, however, immediately descend to hell, to be punished moreover with disparate punishments. They will go into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

• Infallible statement about morals and faith, Council of Florence

The holy Roman church, founded on the words of our Lord and Saviour, firmly believes, professes and preaches that … With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God, it admonishes that sacred baptism is not to be deferred for forty or eighty days or any other period of time in accordance with the usage of some people, but it should be conferred as soon as it conveniently can; and if there is imminent danger of death, the child should be baptized straightaway without any delay, even by a lay man or a woman in the form of the church, if there is no priest, as is contained more fully in the decree on the Armenians.

-Also Council of Florence (emphasis is mine)

Be assured, and doubt not, that not only men who have attained the use of their reason, but also little children who have begun to live in their mothers’ womb and have there died, or who, having been just born, have passed away from the world without the sacrament of holy baptism, administered in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, must be punished by the eternal torture of undying fire; for although they have committed no sin by their own will, they have nevertheless drawn with them the condemnation of original sin, by their carnal conception and nativity." (sec. 70.)

• Bishop St. Fulgentius (not infallible, but an important father of the Church).

Let’s stay focused though. Please complete this sentence:

A life lived in hell for all eternity is “worth it” because…

 

[Aloysium]

. . . When I was a Catholic . . . I truly believe life is worth living. . . .

Poorly catechized, I would think.

I agree with you, but it is my faith in God that leads me to that conclusion.
Without God, life is reduced to a filling of one’s cup with evanessence.

For the unthinking and unprepared, there are no riches, no pleasure, no honour, no amount of power worth the pain of losing it all at the end of one’s life, when all that was, is no more.
For those who live each moment to its fullest, clinging to no future reward, but doing what has to be done, even in this case, there is no meaning to selfish quests.

When it all goes bad, wherein lies the hope that gives the toil and suffering significance?
It’s in love that we find purpose, the strength to carry on, and the joy of existence.

Since God exists, all life is worth the living. Those who do not know him might think otherwise.

 

[meltzerboy]

Yes, a person may seek forgiveness.

I think some people think that a life of pain on earth can’t be fruitful. Pain can have worth if we unite it to the cross.

I could do all sorts of good on earth (feed the poor, etc) but if I go to hell, then really what does it matter? If I’m not helping others get to heaven, does feeding someone a meal really matter in the scheme of life? Now, a person headed towards heaven will be helping others because that’s what Christians should do. But, yes, I could feed the hungry every day, but if I’m an abortionist on the side, then what is my life worth? Every sin affects the Church, personal or public.

My answer to you is YES: feeding the poor DOES matter even if you are going to hell because of mortal sins you have committed and not repented for. It matters to those you have fed, not merely because it satisfies them physically but also emotionally and spiritually, and it matters to G-d. Every act of kindness and charity bestowed on others counts in the eyes of G-d just as much as every act of unkindness and hatred. Admittedly, I am speaking from a Jewish bias since Judaism emphasizes the importance of our sincere, good behavior toward others, more than our sinful behavior and more than our faith. It seems to me so does Christianity: “…faith, hope, and love, abide these three, but the greatest of these is love.”

 

[Regina7]

My answer to you is YES: feeding the poor DOES matter even if you are going to hell because of mortal sins you have committed and not repented for. It matters to those you have fed, not merely because it satisfies them physically but also emotionally and spiritually, and it matters to G-d. Every act of kindness and charity bestowed on others counts in the eyes of G-d just as much as every act of unkindness and hatred. Admittedly, I am speaking from a Jewish bias since Judaism emphasizes the importance of our sincere, good behavior toward others, more than our sinful behavior and more than our faith. It seems to me so does Christianity: “…faith, hope, and love, abide these three, but the greatest of these is love.”

Yes, it matters for the person receiving the food. But I was looking at it from the perspective of the person in hell.

 

[MarcoPolo]

That infants go to hell for nothing other than original sin is logically implied by the Church’s infallible statements.

• Infallible statement about morals and faith, Council of Florence

-Also Council of Florence (emphasis is mine)

• Bishop St. Fulgentius (not infallible, but an important father of the Church).

That is not the Church’s position. The Church specifically does not interpret the quotes you cite as an infallible implication. See:
*CCC#1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.*See also the lengthy THE HOPE OF SALVATION FOR INFANTS WHO DIE WITHOUT BEING BAPTISED

Let’s stay focused though. Please complete this sentence:

A life lived in hell for all eternity is “worth it” because…

Very well, apologies for the tangent, although it was in the OP. I will complete your sentence this way: *A life lived in hell for all eternity is “worth it” because that soul’s example could enlighten multitudes as well as reveal the infinite goodness of God, for if we see that a soul goes to hell only by his own choice, then it reveals the vast goodness of the One rejected. *

But ultimately, I think the idea of “worth it” is kind of a word game and I leave it in quotes above.

 

[Jesus_Lives]

Warning: sensitive, grieving, and scrupulous people should NOT read this thread. Just forget about this and have a good day.

When I was a Catholic, I was a big fan of Fulton Sheen. I still appreciate his masterful and dramatic presentations, and occasionally watch an episode of “Life Is Worth Living” on Youtube. I fully agree with the sentiment: I truly believe life is worth living. However, I do wonder if this general truth admits any exceptions? Can you think of a set of circumstances which would tip the balance of a human life toward “not worth it?” I can think of some examples from scripture:

• Jesus seems to think the life of Judas was “not worth it” in the sense that he admits it would have been “better” for him to never have been born in the first place.
• God seems to think all the antediluvian people (except Noah and family) were “not worth it” since he “regretted having made them.”
• Jesus says it would be better to die a violent death by drowning than live and cause (either simpletons, innocents, or children) to sin.

Can you think of a life that would not be worth living? What about the antichrist? Satan? Stalin? What about the multitudes of people who believe their lives aren’t worth it? Are they all insane? Stupid? Deceived?

Personally, my answer to this question is that a life lived in hell is simply not worth it, over all. The infinitude of torment that comprises that life for eternity totally outweighs any finite goods they may have experienced or provided for others.

For example: [rich famous tech billionaire couple]. [Couple’s foundation] has done so much good for humanity because of their vast wealth. But, they support contraception, so eternal hell is looking likely (NO, I am NOT “judging” them, just pointing out the facts). Even though they have benefited millions of people, I would still say their lives are probably not worth living, and it would have been better if they had never been born in the first place, if they end up in endless hell. The finite benefits they have provided to large numbers of people are still outweighed by the endless torment they will experience.

Another example: A baby born with some kind of degenerative disease that causes relentless excruciating pain and ends with death. The baby did not have time to be baptized and descends immediately and permanently to endless hell (although with less or different punishment than the benevolent billionaires mentioned above). Can it be said that this life is “worth it?” To whom? The parents? The doctors? The community? Maybe the bereaved parents will be “stronger” or “more loving” after they go through the process of grief? If we were to ask the baby what he or she thought, do you think he or she would agree that his or her life is “worth living?”

What I want to know is: why is this “wrong-headed?” Why is a life lived in endless hell “worth it?” Can you think of a reason? Make your case, but make it a positive case please. Like this:

“A life lived in endless hell is worth it because…[your answer here]…”

Also, it is possible there are other examples of lives that are not worth living. I can’t think of any, to be honest. However, make your case, but make it a positive case, like this:

“A life that is [circumstance here] is not worth living because [your answer here]…”

Depression makes life not worth living for many people who have it.

 

[Lucretius]

I just found this on a blog a follow: thomism.wordpress.com/2015/08/31/a-thesis-in-predestination/

Just because it would be better for Joe if he were never born, it doesn’t follow that everyone else would be better off if he weren’t.

Let’s look at Judas. Judas, following Christ’s Words, personally would have been better off not born; however, for the rest of us, his actions led to the Sacrifice that reconciled creation with God. In other words, it is better for Judas that he not be born, but for us, it was good for him to be born.

This might sound like the rest of us are using Judas at his expense, but remember that he too could have repented like St. Peter, and enjoyed the fruit of his actions*

Christi pax,

Lucretius

*hopefully in the end he did do this

 

[Lucretius]

Depression makes life not worth living for many people who have it.

A depression person looks deep into the nature of things and finds emptiness. He gazes straight into the being of things, and he sees that there is nothing. It’s feels literally like Hell on Earth.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[Aloysium]

Depression makes life not worth living for many people who have it.

Further to what Lucretius says, depression makes it feel like life is not worth living. The person is mentally ill. Medication and psychotherapy most often are very effective in pulling the person out of their personal hell.

 

[fhansen]

Warning: sensitive, grieving, and scrupulous people should NOT read this thread. Just forget about this and have a good day.

When I was a Catholic, I was a big fan of Fulton Sheen. I still appreciate his masterful and dramatic presentations, and occasionally watch an episode of “Life Is Worth Living” on Youtube. I fully agree with the sentiment: I truly believe life is worth living. However, I do wonder if this general truth admits any exceptions? Can you think of a set of circumstances which would tip the balance of a human life toward “not worth it?” I can think of some examples from scripture:

• Jesus seems to think the life of Judas was “not worth it” in the sense that he admits it would have been “better” for him to never have been born in the first place.
• God seems to think all the antediluvian people (except Noah and family) were “not worth it” since he “regretted having made them.”
• Jesus says it would be better to die a violent death by drowning than live and cause (either simpletons, innocents, or children) to sin.

Can you think of a life that would not be worth living? What about the antichrist? Satan? Stalin? What about the multitudes of people who believe their lives aren’t worth it? Are they all insane? Stupid? Deceived?

Personally, my answer to this question is that a life lived in hell is simply not worth it, over all. The infinitude of torment that comprises that life for eternity totally outweighs any finite goods they may have experienced or provided for others.

For example: [rich famous tech billionaire couple]. [Couple’s foundation] has done so much good for humanity because of their vast wealth. But, they support contraception, so eternal hell is looking likely (NO, I am NOT “judging” them, just pointing out the facts). Even though they have benefited millions of people, I would still say their lives are probably not worth living, and it would have been better if they had never been born in the first place, if they end up in endless hell. The finite benefits they have provided to large numbers of people are still outweighed by the endless torment they will experience.

Another example: A baby born with some kind of degenerative disease that causes relentless excruciating pain and ends with death. The baby did not have time to be baptized and descends immediately and permanently to endless hell (although with less or different punishment than the benevolent billionaires mentioned above). Can it be said that this life is “worth it?” To whom? The parents? The doctors? The community? Maybe the bereaved parents will be “stronger” or “more loving” after they go through the process of grief? If we were to ask the baby what he or she thought, do you think he or she would agree that his or her life is “worth living?”

What I want to know is: why is this “wrong-headed?” Why is a life lived in endless hell “worth it?” Can you think of a reason? Make your case, but make it a positive case please. Like this:

“A life lived in endless hell is worth it because…[your answer here]…”

Also, it is possible there are other examples of lives that are not worth living. I can’t think of any, to be honest. However, make your case, but make it a positive case, like this:

“A life that is [circumstance here] is not worth living because [your answer here]…”

Because, perhaps, those in hell still cherish their existence, tacitly agreeing with God that their creation was worth it. We’d have to ask them, I guess.