What could make life "not worth living?"

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I’d be curious to hear how you prove that the existence of hell is not necessary for free will.

I suppose that the existence of hell is necessary because God makes clear that actions have consequences. Only a fool believes otherwise.

What consequence other than hell would you suggest that make the case that actions have consequences, and eternal consequences at that?

Eternal annihilation of the soul rather than eternal hell?

Why would that be a consequence that anyone would need to fear?

The opposite of heaven is not annihilation. It is hell. You pays your money and you takes your choice. 🤷
I have discussed this at length in another thread entitled “is eternal suffering pointless.” I have also answered objections. In short, temporal punishment coupled with annihilation could be enough to satisfy justice and allow for moral responsibilty (free will). In order to prove that something is “unnecessary” all one has to do is provide a reasonable, possible alternative.
 
I have discussed this at length in another thread entitled “is eternal suffering pointless.” I have also answered objections. In short, temporal punishment coupled with annihilation could be enough to satisfy justice and allow for moral responsibilty (free will). In order to prove that something is “unnecessary” all one has to do is provide a reasonable, possible alternative.
Well then, you have left eternal heaven out of the equation.

God’s command is to choose one or the other. Annihilation is not an option.

But apparently you think annihilation should be an option.

Does it sound a bit like you are substituting your judgment for God’s.

Or is this just your way of explaining why you will not be a Christian?

That the Christian God does not give fair alternatives to induce a righteous life?
 
I have discussed this at length in another thread entitled “is eternal suffering pointless.” I have also answered objections. In short, temporal punishment coupled with annihilation could be enough to satisfy justice and allow for moral responsibilty (free will).** In order to prove that something is “unnecessary” all one has to do is provide a reasonable, possible alternative**.
Dear PumkinCookie,
You needn’t reply if you have not the inclination or if you feel you have answered this already in the other thread.
For example,
That the SAT is necessary for college admission at a given college or university is not something made unnecessary by the provisions of an arbitrary reasonable alternative. Unless you are represented by a powerful advocate, you don’t get admitted, period unless you submit the scores. If you admit the existence and actions of a powerful advocate, then the possible scenarios open up considerably. Relatedly,
This Advocate is not your doting parent. The advocate pleads your case and shows your worthiness; magnifies it to the exclusion of all fault. If fault is found, the Advocate continues to dwell on the good. But if you stand before the judge and ask for annihilation, the best the Advocate can do is plead for you to live. If the judge allowed annihilation and if there was no advocate, everyone would see justice in it and freewill too. There would be no difference between annihilation and Heaven. All cases could be resolved by the new default, annihilation.

Penitent: I do not repent despite what my advocate has said. I freely want annihilation?
Advocate: Judge please annihilate my friend?
Judge: If I should annihilate him, why did we give him life to begin with? For me to destroy him? Why annihilate him now? Why not when he was 20 or 30 years old. Answer these questions.
 
Because, perhaps, those in hell still cherish their existence, tacitly agreeing with God that their creation was worth it. We’d have to ask them, I guess.
Still cherish their existence? Doctors have told me of their severe burn victims screaming to die because of the pain, but somehow those who have been burning in the lake of fire for thousands of years would rather have that than lapse into a vegetative coma and be erased in their sleep? What is your claim based on?
 
The list could be very long, but for me, it would involve illness that would make me a burden on others and unable to care for myself. To be perfectly honest, I have several serious health conditions, but they have not reached that point. Should that point be reached, contingencies are always in place.

John
 
Still cherish their existence? Doctors have told me of their severe burn victims screaming to die because of the pain, but somehow those who have been burning in the lake of fire for thousands of years would rather have that than lapse into a vegetative coma and be erased in their sleep? What is your claim based on?
We don’t know what hell is like to any real degree. The chief pain is said to be the absence of God. Some people choose darkness, selfishness, lovelessness. In any case hell doesn’t automatically imply a loss of desire for continued existence.
 
We don’t know what hell is like to any real degree. The chief pain is said to be the absence of God. Some people choose darkness, selfishness, lovelessness. In any case hell doesn’t automatically imply a loss of desire for continued existence.
I think the bold text is validated by the experiences of people in pain. They want their lives back.
The text I emphasized with underline, points to the work of Satan in people’s lives.
They have a confluence in that pain can make a person vulnerable to illicit desires.
 
Still cherish their existence? Doctors have told me of their severe burn victims screaming to die because of the pain, but somehow those who have been burning in the lake of fire for thousands of years would rather have that than lapse into a vegetative coma and be erased in their sleep? What is your claim based on?
This comparison does not strike me as valid. The burn victim is screaming to have his pain ended, not to have his existence ended. All the more so this would be true if he believed that his death was not his annihilation, but rather his passage into another state of existence.

We do not know precisely the state of mind of the damned. All we know is that God is not cruel. What they have done, they have done to themselves. If they did not want to be with God, that is their choice. I personally think the pain of hell would be the realization that you made a stupid choice in your life to dissociate yourself from your Creator, and then have to complain throughout eternity that it is the Creator’s fault you made that choice.

Actions have consequences. And according to Scripture, the fool in his heart says there is no God.

He has only fooled and foiled himself. 🤷
 
Do you seriously believe this? The lives of the damned are “worth it” because they’re sacrificial lambs, endlessly burning, for those in heaven? Have you ever read “The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas?”
No. The difference between the damned and the saved is that, although both their lives are " worth it," the saved accepted spiritual life while the damned didn’t. God doesn’t create worthless things.

We could rephrased this by saying that God makes even the lives of the damned work for the greater good, even though they will refuse ultimately to accept Him.

I don’t think I ever espoused a view that those in Hell are sacrificial offerings, nor do I see how my views logically lead to such a conclusion.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
It’s certain from Scripture that hell is not a good place to be.

What’s not certain is whether hell may have some compensations that we are not aware of.

There may be in hell, for all we know, hedonistic pleasures comparable to those experienced by sinners in this life. In that event, hell may not be a screaming horror show to those who live in it. But we can be fairly certain that those in hell will be brought to full and forever knowledge of the fools they have been in this life by denying themselves the pleasure of being in God’s presence.
 
OK dude. Sounds good. I’m not an atheist or a nihilist, nor do I think anyone should be, given the available evidence. However, I respect other’s beliefs.

But, I do think that if there is a hell, then the lives of people who go there are “not worth living” in a very deep way, much deeper than if their lives were simply the result of random fluctuations of matter. Nothing should inspire more despair than the idea that anyone at all is experiencing eternal torment, and yet most Christians seem to ignore it. It is like they think “I got mine” so that’s all that matters. 😦

People here seem to be appealing to a kind of sacrificial consequentialism regarding this question. “The lives of those in hell are worth it…to those who make it to heaven.” Please forgive me, but this seems like a disgusting ethical position. “The suffering of sweatshop workers is worth it…to those who can buy cheap clothes.”
I don’t think of it as a “sacrifical offering,” but rather as God bringing greater good out of our failures. God, for example, brings greater good out of the sin of fornication: a child, and hopefully a marriage too. In the same way, God brings greater good out of the damned, even if the damned sadly don’t benefit from it, even though it is their own will, and only their own will, that they don’t.

My view of Hell is different than the common view: I see Hell as the experience of pure malice and meaninglessness for all eternity.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
:twocents:

As far as we are eternal beings, our being rooted outside of time, there is no possibility of annihilation.
Since in time and through time, we determine who we are as eternal beings, as we are in reality, whom we have chosen to become cannot be annihilated.
That said, we will all be annihilated, either dying to sin, in Christ, or dying in terms of losing all humanity and becoming demonic.
This question boils down to what is annihilated and what remains to be resurrected; the truth of our existence remains once time, as defined by our being in this world, comes to an end.
 
I don’t think of it as a “sacrifical offering,” but rather as God bringing greater good out of our failures. God, for example, brings greater good out of the sin of fornication: a child, and hopefully a marriage too. In the same way, God brings greater good out of the damned, even if the damned sadly don’t benefit from it, even though it is their own will, and only their own will, that they don’t.

My view of Hell is different than the common view: I see Hell as the experience of pure malice and meaninglessness for all eternity.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
What is the “greater good” brought about by endless hell? There are many possible answers, but each of them implies a kind of “sacrifice” on the part of those in hell for the benefit of those in heaven. The theology of hell is a cosmic “win-lose” scenario. Can you think of a situation where someone’s damnation would bring about a greater good? What good, save for salvation, could be greater than eternal damnation is evil?
 
Well then, you have left eternal heaven out of the equation.

God’s command is to choose one or the other. Annihilation is not an option.

But apparently you think annihilation should be an option.

Does it sound a bit like you are substituting your judgment for God’s.

Or is this just your way of explaining why you will not be a Christian?

That the Christian God does not give fair alternatives to induce a righteous life?
Respectfully, you believe God’s command is to choose one or the other. Similarly, I believe God offers us life if we love him, and death if we don’t. There are many reasons I can’t believe Christianity is right about God, the outrageous injustice of hell is just one of the reasons.
 
What is the “greater good” brought about by endless hell? There are many possible answers, but each of them implies a kind of “sacrifice” on the part of those in hell for the benefit of those in heaven. The theology of hell is a cosmic “win-lose” scenario. Can you think of a situation where someone’s damnation would bring about a greater good? What good, save for salvation, could be greater than eternal damnation is evil?
The damned add nothing nor subtract nothing from the joy of those in Heaven. When I’m writing, I’m talking about the lives of the saved and damned, not their afterlives.

The OP seems to be asking if the damned lives are meaningful or meaningless, because if they are meaningless, than why would God even create them to begin with? I answered that the damned lives are meaningful, but not to the damned. If you mean “Sacrifice” in that sense, then that’s fine. But the suffering of the damned in the afterlife is all their fault.

Then, father, I pray thee send him to my own father’s house; for I have five brethren; let him give these a warning, so that they may not come, in their turn, into this place of suffering. Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them listen to these. They will not do that, father Abraham, said he; but if a messenger comes to them from the dead, they will repent. But he answered him, If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will be unbelieving still, though one should rise from the dead (Luke 16:27-31).

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Respectfully, you believe God’s command is to choose one or the other. Similarly, I believe God offers us life if we love him, and death if we don’t. There are many reasons I can’t believe Christianity is right about God, the outrageous injustice of hell is just one of the reasons.
One of the phrases to describe Hell is “the second death.”

Where do you disagree with Christianity? We agree that God offers us either life or death.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Personally, I think the “flames of Hell” are a metaphor. I think the Judgement is more like experiencing your life all over again (life flashing before your eyes) from not only your point of view, but your neighbors’ as well, so that you can experience your own violations of “love thy neighbor” (or worse, experience our violations of “love thy God” :eek: ). If we wake up in the afterlife with God and the Angels, their love for us would help us endure it, amd move pass it, but if we wake with the demons, their malice will cause us to become like them, and unable to move pass it: and no other metaphor seems fit to describe this state of the soul other than Burning.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
 
Dear PumkinCookie,
You needn’t reply if you have not the inclination or if you feel you have answered this already in the other thread.
For example,
That the SAT is necessary for college admission at a given college or university is not something made unnecessary by the provisions of an arbitrary reasonable alternative. Unless you are represented by a powerful advocate, you don’t get admitted, period unless you submit the scores. If you admit the existence and actions of a powerful advocate, then the possible scenarios open up considerably. Relatedly,
This Advocate is not your doting parent. The advocate pleads your case and shows your worthiness; magnifies it to the exclusion of all fault. If fault is found, the Advocate continues to dwell on the good. But if you stand before the judge and ask for annihilation, the best the Advocate can do is plead for you to live. If the judge allowed annihilation and if there was no advocate, everyone would see justice in it and freewill too. There would be no difference between annihilation and Heaven. All cases could be resolved by the new default, annihilation.

Penitent: I do not repent despite what my advocate has said. I freely want annihilation?
Advocate: Judge please annihilate my friend?
Judge: If I should annihilate him, why did we give him life to begin with? For me to destroy him? Why annihilate him now? Why not when he was 20 or 30 years old. Answer these questions.
The SAT is not “necessary” for college admission in the strict philosophical definition of the word “necessary” which is how I’m using it here.

“Necessary:” A proposition such that the denial of it would be a self-contradiction.

If you were to say, for example, that the SAT is “necessary” for college admission, it would mean this (to me):

All colleges require the SAT, and if anything claiming to be a college does not require the SAT, then it is not a college. There are no examples of colleges that do not require the SAT.

All I have to do to show that “the SAT is necessary for college admission” is not a “necessary” truth is give a single example of a college that does not require the SAT, even if that college is merely logically possible. Since no colleges whatsoever before the 20th century required the SAT, I have ample proof that the SAT is not “necessary” or “intrinsic” to “college-ness.”

So, all I have to do to show that hell is not “necessary” for life, existence, justice, etc, is to give a logically possible alternative. All I have to do is show that hell is not “intrinsically required” to blow a giant hole in the idea that God’s “hands are tied” and he “has no choice” but to create endless, eternal hell. Annihilation is one such possibility. Now, hell could still be “arbitrarily required” by God, just like the SAT is “arbitrarily required” by many colleges, but neither is certainly necessary.

Penitent: I do not repent, but acknowledge my guilt.

Advocate: My client refuses to repent.

Judge: I sentence you to death.

Advocate: Why didn’t you sentence my client to death years ago? After all, you have always known this would happen? In fact, why didn’t you prevent his birth in the first place?

Judge: Well, he hadn’t committed the crimes yet. I can’t punish someone for something they would certainly do if given the chance, only for that which they have actually done. Also, I am exceedingly generous in that I want to give everyone a chance to repent. Many do repent in the time given to them. This one chooses not to repent, and so my sentence is death.
 
One of the phrases to describe Hell is “the second death.”

Where do you disagree with Christianity? We agree that God offers us either life or death.

Christi pax,

Lucretius
I don’t think so. The RCC says that we will live forever no matter what we do, it just offers better accommodations for those who believe in Jesus, are baptized, and submit to the Roman Pontiff.

Death= cessation of existence, total destruction.
Hell= infinite prolongation of existence in endless physical and spiritual torment.
 
The damned add nothing nor subtract nothing from the joy of those in Heaven. When I’m writing, I’m talking about the lives of the saved and damned, not their afterlives.

The OP seems to be asking if the damned lives are meaningful or meaningless, because if they are meaningless, than why would God even create them to begin with? I answered that the damned lives are meaningful, but not to the damned. If you mean “Sacrifice” in that sense, then that’s fine. But the suffering of the damned in the afterlife is all their fault.

Then, father, I pray thee send him to my own father’s house; for I have five brethren; let him give these a warning, so that they may not come, in their turn, into this place of suffering. Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them listen to these. They will not do that, father Abraham, said he; but if a messenger comes to them from the dead, they will repent. But he answered him, If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will be unbelieving still, though one should rise from the dead (Luke 16:27-31).

Christi pax,

Lucretius
You may as well just come right out and say it: “I got mine. What happens to those guys is not my problem.” The rich man in this passage is morally superior to those who have this view, ironically enough.

Also, odd that neither Moses nor any of the prophets warned of a place of eternal damnation. Death: yes. Endless torment: totally absent from the law and the prophets. I wonder why that is? Seriously! Shouldn’t something important like that be stated clearly, early, and often? :hmmm:
 
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