What could make life "not worth living?"

[Lucretius]

I don’t think so. The RCC says that we will live forever no matter what we do, it just offers better accommodations for those who believe in Jesus, are baptized, and submit to the Roman Pontiff.

Death= cessation of existence, total destruction.
Hell= infinite prolongation of existence in endless physical and spiritual torment.

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that God positively “tortures” the damned. The only torturing that God does is that the damned are repulsed by God’s very being: their hearts are so fallen that they find God a burden, rather than a Joy. To put it simply, you seem to object to the idea that any of the torment of Hell is caused by God directly, a thesis I myself agree with. However, the correct view is that the torture of Hell is cause by the soul itself.

Your other objection is that God would allow a soul to live eternally to experience this. I think my response on such a hard question is that we have to remember that eternal doesn’t mean for all time, it means outside of time. To experience Hell is not like being thrown into a fire for a long period of time. Instead the damned would experience this torture in might be called a moment that feels like a thousand years, if that makes sense. On this view its harder to see how a soul could do things like “change their minds” in Hell (as they will be in the mindset they died with for eternity), or how God could eventually “eliminate” the damned’s existence after they balanced the scales of Justice (there’s no time, so one cannot change in eternity).

You are correct, though: no human ultimately ceases to exist. However, this is a logical conclusion of not only philosophical inquiry, but also Revelation: the Resurrection doesn’t make sense if human souls ceased to exist. Catholics share this principle with our Jewish older brothers

When you say “Noahide,” do you mean you are a Gentile that recognizes the Jewish religion, but also understands that he doesn’t need to (and really isn’t encouraged to) convert?

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[Lucretius]

You may as well just come right out and say it: “I got mine. What happens to those guys is not my problem.” The rich man in this passage is morally superior to those who have this view, ironically enough.

I disagree. An analogical situation would be a young man, who after being warned by his parents all his life about fornication, comes home with HIV. What can the parents say other than “we warned you” and “there’s nothing we can do now.”

Also, odd that neither Moses nor any of the prophets warned of a place of eternal damnation. Death: yes. Endless torment: totally absent from the law and the prophets. I wonder why that is? Seriously! Shouldn’t something important like that be stated clearly, early, and often?

Even modern Jews recognize something like eternal damnation for some, like Jews who converted to another religion, and some might throw Pharaoh into that group.

Furthermore, Christians would say at least that, even if we assume that the prophets don’t mention Hell, Messiah Himself revealed it.

Anyway, the Tanakh doesn’t get explicit about the afterlife. The Sadducees even rejected the concept altogether, and even argued against the Prophets on the grounds that they introduced things the Torah didn’t discuss explicitly, just as you might argue that Jesus’s teaching is wrong because it explicitly introduces Hell

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[PumpkinCookie]

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that God positively “tortures” the damned. The only torturing that God does is that the damned are repulsed by God’s very being: their hearts are so fallen that they find God a burden, rather than a Joy. To put it simply, you seem to object to the idea that any of the torment of Hell is caused by God directly, a thesis I myself agree with. However, the correct view is that the torture of Hell is cause by the soul itself.

Your other objection is that God would allow a soul to live eternally to experience this. I think my response on such a hard question is that we have to remember that eternal doesn’t mean for all time, it means outside of time. To experience Hell is not like being thrown into a fire for a long period of time. Instead the damned would experience this torture in might be called a moment that feels like a thousand years, if that makes sense. On this view its harder to see how a soul could do things like “change their minds” in Hell (as they will be in the mindset they died with for eternity), or how God could eventually “eliminate” the damned’s existence after they balanced the scales of Justice (there’s no time, so one cannot change in eternity).

You are correct, though: no human ultimately ceases to exist. However, this is a logical conclusion of not only philosophical inquiry, but also Revelation: the Resurrection doesn’t make sense if human souls ceased to exist. Catholics share this principle with our Jewish older brothers

When you say “Noahide,” do you mean you are a Gentile that recognizes the Jewish religion, but also understands that he doesn’t need to (and really isn’t encouraged to) convert?

Christi pax,

Lucretius

The “timelessness” defense that always and inevitably comes up is a good one, the problem is that it conflicts with the implications of Catholic teaching. The RCC insists that there are human bodies (glorified or otherwise) in both heaven and hell. Not “now” of course, whatever that means, but for “eternity.” So, the RCC has already implied change in the afterlife, since we will go from a disembodied state to an embodied state at some point in time. Further, bodies imply space which necessarily implies time.

Even if the torments of hell aren’t caused directly by God, the existence of the damned is continuously sustained by God at each and every moment. All he would have to do is “let go” and they would vanish. What is the point of keeping them alive forever? Indeed, their existence would be miraculous since God would sustain them as they harm and torment themselves forever. Why? Reasoning backward from the resurrection doesn’t prove that souls exist endlessly and by necessity. A general resurrection hasn’t happened, so we shouldn’t reason based on something that hasn’t ever taken place!

Further: not so! Jews are not a monolithic group of unified belief. I’m sure you can find a rabbi or some believers who believe in endless hell, or necessarily and intrinsically indestructible souls, but this has never been the majority opinion. There are good reasons to suppose, based on reading just the Tanakh, that there is no eternal life at all. However, I do believe in eternal life for those who love God and obey his commands, and permanent and final death for those who hate God and disobey him. I also believe in temporary “hell” where everything is sorted out.

Yes, I am a Gentile but I believe in God and I believe the Torah tells us about the one true God. I feel no strong call to “change tribes” and become a Jewish person. I suppose some people do, but instead I feel that God is calling me to obey him as a Gentile. I suppose one can obey God as a member of any religion or culture. I personally cannot, but it would be inappropriate to detail an explanation here.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

I disagree. An analogical situation would be a young man, who after being warned by his parents all his life about fornication, comes home with HIV. What can the parents say other than “we warned you” and “there’s nothing we can do now.”

How about “we love you son?” If the parents were people of means they would pay for the best treatment. They would support the son and do everything they could to ensure that he would be healed. I’m sure the scare would put him back on the straight and narrow very quickly! The parents you described are morally deficient and callous. Is God that way too, in your view?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

:twocents:

As far as we are eternal beings, our being rooted outside of time, there is no possibility of annihilation.
Since in time and through time, we determine who we are as eternal beings, as we are in reality, whom we have chosen to become cannot be annihilated.
That said, we will all be annihilated, either dying to sin, in Christ, or dying in terms of losing all humanity and becoming demonic.
This question boils down to what is annihilated and what remains to be resurrected; the truth of our existence remains once time, as defined by our being in this world, comes to an end.

Our being is rooted within time, at a specific moment when our bodies are created and we are ensouled by the direct action of God. Our souls are creatures just like dust, stars, water, animals, and every other thing. In our process of becoming our bodies grow and then die. We are “becoming” dead with every passing moment. There is no reason to suppose our souls cannot die, especially if, as we age, we increase in bitterness, hate, suspicion, cynicism, and selfishness. As the body becomes weary, bent, and broken, so too our souls age with every act of cruelty and selfishness. As the body has a limit and eventually expires, so too the soul will expire. Unless, the soul is obedient to God by loving others. Then, the soul is becoming more and more alive with each passing year. At the death of the body, the soul has grown so vital that it is propelled into the afterlife by a miracle of God’s love and generosity.

 

[Aloysium]

Our being is rooted within time, at a specific moment when our bodies are created and we are ensouled by the direct action of God. Our souls are creatures just like dust, stars, water, animals, and every other thing. In our process of becoming our bodies grow and then die. We are “becoming” dead with every passing moment. There is no reason to suppose our souls cannot die, especially if, as we age, we increase in bitterness, hate, suspicion, cynicism, and selfishness. As the body becomes weary, bent, and broken, so too our souls age with every act of cruelty and selfishness. As the body has a limit and eventually expires, so too the soul will expire. Unless, the soul is obedient to God by loving others. Then, the soul is becoming more and more alive with each passing year. At the death of the body, the soul has grown so vital that it is propelled into the afterlife by a miracle of God’s love and generosity.

That’s not how I see it.
Our being is rooted in God, He breathed into the dust giving us life.
While living our lives in time, who we are existentially, is outside of time - eternal.
Our life begins in time at conception when the person is created, a part of the history of the world.
The person lives out his/her life, participating in their own creation over time.
The totality of that person, who has a beginning and end, exists within eternity.
Whom one becomes in time is encompassed by the eternal.
There is no annihilation, although death comes to all.
We enter as we are, as we have chosen ourselves to be, into life resurrected and eternal, as a body-spirit unity.
The incarnation, death and resurrection of the Son, provides us with the possibility of entering into joyous, communion with God and not damnation, where sin does lead.

 

[BobCatholic]

Life is not worth living if God does not show you any sort of love.

Life is not worth living if you know you’re going to hell, and every attempt to live in God’s grace is going to fail.

Life is not worth living if you’re in hell.

Life is not worth living unless you’re perfectly holy and God loves you.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Life is not worth living if God does not show you any sort of love.

Life is not worth living if you know you’re going to hell, and every attempt to live in God’s grace is going to fail.

Life is not worth living if you’re in hell.

Life is not worth living unless you’re perfectly holy and God loves you.

So, in other words, life is not worth living for…well just about everyone! What a dark view.

Come on now, you don’t actually believe this do you?

 

[BobCatholic]

So, in other words, life is not worth living for…well just about everyone! What a dark view.

Come on now, you don’t actually believe this do you?

OK, so if everyone is going to hell, then why is life worth living?

It is like the moment the kid is sitting in his room, hearing his dad come upstairs to whoop his butt with a belt. That’s life.

 

[Abba]

Scripture does hint that the hell-bound soul would be better off if never born (Matt. 26:24).

Hello,

Scripture does not “hint that the hell-bound soul would be better off if never born.” What is said in scripture is:

Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

Hence, woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man - specifically - Judas. That’s it and nothing else. Why woe? Some will argue because he went straight to hell after hanging himself - but that is pure speculation. It could also be because through the centuries he would be looked down upon and woe - he sin was one of a kind - it cannot be duplicate.
So, we do not know where Judas is - period.

As you were.

 

[BobCatholic]

Hence, woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man - specifically - Judas.

Mortal sin is betraying Jesus. If one dies unrepentant, they go to hell.

So this is not only about Judas. It is about anyone going to hell.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

OK, so if everyone is going to hell, then why is life worth living?

It is like the moment the kid is sitting in his room, hearing his dad come upstairs to whoop his butt with a belt. That’s life.

If everyone is going to hell, then yes life would definitely not be worth living, I can agree with that. You don’t think everyone is going to hell though do you? I imagine that would obliterate any kind of joy.

 

[BobCatholic]

If everyone is going to hell, then yes life would definitely not be worth living, I can agree with that. You don’t think everyone is going to hell though do you? I imagine that would obliterate any kind of joy.

I don’t believe everyone is going to hell.

But those who are, their lives are not worth living. Their life is death row.

For those who are going to heaven, their lives are worth living.