What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[frangiuliano115]

Thanks, that makes sense and may ease some tension for me personally. My confusion may have come from so many considering the Catholic Church as The Church, rather than Christ Himself.

Laughing Boy in post no. 153 has given you the correct answer.

You simplify it with one sentence.

I’ve been trying to explain this difference for 3 months and have been unable to.

Everyone who believes in Christ is a member of the Church. Catholic means universal in Greek and was used in that way in the beginning of Christianity and I think this causes much confusion. We, as catholics, also have the CCC which could be used. The salvation of others is spoken of in pp no. 1271 but we love to ignore it.

Could you imagine if only Catholics went to heaven??

Christ IS the Church.
The Church is everyone who believes and follows Him. It is the Body of Christ.

I thank you!

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Show me a Mass that teaches tha!. I have been going to Daily Mass for over 40 years and I’ve NEVER heard that!! The Catholic Church teaches us to NOT judge others, but to follow what Jesus Christ teaches and to pray for all. God Bless, Memaw

Aren’t we judging the soul of others when we state that “outside the church there is no salvation” intending to mean the Catholic Church??

TC3033 doesn’t mean he hears it said at Mass, he means that the people AT the Mass believe this so why should he attend.

It would be nice if we, as catholics, could state clearly what the CCC teaches. I mean, sometimes I get confused! Well, not really…

Fran

 

[MartinJordan]

I wish you could tell me what I am misunderstanding. Is the mass a sacrifice or not? Could Catholics be forgiven without the sacrifice of the mass? I listened to a lecture by Scott Hahn in which he spoke of " both sacrifices". Is there a sacrifice at the hands of the priest as claimed in the liturgy or not?

My faith is much different. I have a part in the sacrifice of the cross because I was “in Christ” and He carried my sins, not a “re-presentation” The communion for me is to do what Jesus asked, that is to remember Him. I do not find “representation” in scripture.

Thanks for your help!

I know the question was not to me however, I think it might help to understand by what the Church calls an “unbloody sacrifice”.

Jesus told us to “do” it in memory of him (and recall that this was before he suffered and taken to Calvary) thus we partake in the Thanksgiving (Eucharist-under the appearances of bread and wine;therefore unbloody) in every Mass.

Finally, Jesus’ work is finished, but not ours… So we have to do what he taught with gratitude till he comes again.

MJ

 

[frangiuliano115]

Dear Fran - You have hit a very good point in our relationship with God and our path to Salvation. You may be not aware that there are other religious scriptures that warn us that Love and Attachment to Names and Promises can also become a veil to knowing and loving God. To me this is one of those strange things that Christianity has now woven into their belief. An attachment to a promise on Salvation, may indeed be a veil to understanding what it really means to be Saved! I would ask how can one continue in search for the Full Love of God if the search for All fruit is on but one Apple Tree.

This I think is a strange thing that happens in all religions, so it is not limited to any one Faith. This is a big subject that would not be in tune with this thread.

Dear Fran, Look at the world, this world is as it is as we have forgotten our God and what it is He has asked us to do. Do you consider that we have the answers? We now know what is required to do away with sin, but what does the World really need to find Salvation? This to me is why Christ was to return, to remind us about our veils of sin and to give the key to unlock the door to bring man to a collective Unified Salvation.

Regards Tony

Good Morning

Well, one strange thing you bring up is this:

The idea about the veil is interesting. The problem with that is that I think that Jesus encompasses all concetps. I would have a difficult time trying to imagine what a different teacher might have to say that could explain things any better to me.

If you read Mathew 5 it includes the beatitudes and other important teachings of Jesus. Do you think much could be added to this? What about Paul’s writings explaining Jesus’ mission. He explains what love is, how we’re to trust in God and not in our sinful selves, how our natural man nature is separate from our spirit which is the nature of God, a divinity, placed into us by Him. Could this be added to? I would be willing to read such teachings, but they would be teachings to me. Jesus is God to me. There’s a difference. As I’ve said before, I understand that this is very much cultural - I do, though, believe it even in a real sense, outside of the cultural aspect. I think it’s true.

Now, what does it really mean to be saved? The big idea is that we’ll one day be in heaven with God. We are saved from satan, from being with satan instead of being with God. This is a salvation. We are also saved right now. Jesus said The Kingdom Of God is All Around But We Do Not See It. If we would follow His teachings, and if all followed the teachings of their own master and teacher, just think of what a world we could live in! It would really be like heaven. But this is impossible due to our sinful nature and the influence of the evil one. However, this could also be thought of as salvation.

Do you have a different understanding?

When Jesus returns, it is clear biblically from a christian viewpoint (both catholic and protestant) that it will be the end of this world. God’s heavenly kingdom will then be set up and the lamb will lie with the lion and peace will reign.

I know that you do not see Jesus quite in this way and you seem to think it limits me. If you could just tell me one thing you know that you feel Jesus did not teach. It would be interesting.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Understand the belief, but now we’re kinda getting down to what does “Is” mean in the context of this conversation.

TC033

Don’t get mixed up again.

The Catholic Church is a member of THE Chruch or the Body of Christ.

Keep it simple!

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Well, there are Catholics who disagree with other Catholics – that has always been the case. Heck, at Vatican I (1870) my Patriarch rejected a claim that was made not only by the Pope but by the majority of Bishops at the council.

See also what I said here.

Went to your like above and saw that it was you and I discussing.
I find it very sad that there is not a general agreement on this when our catholic church is very clear on what our doctrine is. How small is God?? I think He’s a very big God!

Fran

 

[eazyduzit]

I know the question was not to me however, I think it might help to understand by what the Church calls an “unbloody sacrifice”.

Jesus told us to “do” it in memory of him (and recall that this was before he suffered and taken to Calvary) thus we partake in the Thanksgiving (Eucharist-under the appearances of bread and wine;therefore unbloody) in every Mass.

Finally, Jesus’ work is finished, but not ours… So we have to do what he taught with gratitude till he comes again.

MJ

Thanks, but I still don’t understand the nature of the “unbloody sacrifice”. Does it add to justification? Does it forgive sins?

Until Jesus returns, we are the body of Christ. All authority has been given to Him. We are to rule and to reign in His place. He has won the victory for us . We are more than conquerers. We are a kingdom of kings and priests. It is because His work is finished.

 

[guanophore]

The Two are inseperable. It is hard to expalin how. It is a mystery how we are THe Body of Christ. But it says we are in scripture. And If Christ said He is The Church, it means he somehow is The Church, just like when he said “This is my body” Lots of mysteries. The Catholic Church IS the Church as well.

There are many mysteries, but Jesus did not say “He is the Church”. It did not separate himself from her, but she is His Holy Bride. He is her Head, just as a husband is head of the wife. If one is “in Christ”, then one is in His One Body, the Church.

 

[frangiuliano115]

My mother threw a fit when I told her that she could not receive communion when she went to my Baptism (I was a unbaptized protestant convert) and she said she would respect that but just talk to God about it (I think she was basically saying that she was going to “tell on” The Catholic Church to God for not allowing her to receive )

If feeling “Welcome” was a requirement for me to become Catholic I would have never become Catholic Not that anything made me feel “unwelcome”. But it is no secret that the church setting is generally friendlier in protestant churches than your average Catholic parish. I understood why I could not receive communion until I was Baptized (I attended Mass for a year before I was Baptized and never received once)

I would explain to your husband, if he does not already know, that Catholics believe when we receive communion it is also affirming that we agree with everything The Catholic Church teaches that one is required to Believe (Hence being IN communion with The Church) I am sure he knows we believe in The True presence of Christ in The Eucharist. I am sure he believe’s it to just be symbolic (if he believed in The True presence he would most likely belong to The Catholic Church or at least a denomination that somehow believes in The True presence even if the theology is a little different, like the Lutherans) Now when a priest says “The Body of Christ” one responds “Amen” in other words “IT IS SO!” in other words “I BELIEVE IT IS!” if he does not believe this… why would he want to receive? He would be lying if he said “Amen” when he went up to receive. My mother says she believes communion is the body of Christ because he said so, but not in the same way we do. I bet she would consider it idolatry if she heard me say “My Lord and my God” at consecration when I am looking at The Eucharist and I know she would not do the same. My guess is that your husband, if he is Pentecostal would not either. My Grandmother is also Pentecostal and I was talking with her about communion one day. She claimed to believe communion is The body of Christ too. But then she told me to put my trust in Jesus, not a piece of bread. In other words… she did not understand what she was even talking about lol. She views communion as a symbol even if she claims to believe it is really the body of Christ.

Being able to receive for the sake of feeling welcomed in a Church that you do not belong to is a bad reason to want to receive. Maybe one day he will get that. I hope he comes to feel welcomed in other ways one day though.

Well, Laughing Boy, I’m going to get slack for this but I’ll say it anyway: Maybe it takes a protestant to understand catholic theology! I don’t even mean re the Eucharist, but your posts on the Church being the Body of Christ. Maybe it’s because you personally know people outside the Catholic church that are saved because they belong to the Body?

Just a thought. I do find it strange that we have such disagreement on this.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Our faith is “a living faith”. Meaning that while neither Doctrine nor Dogma’s are changeable; it is possible that guided by the Holy Spirit; our UNDERSTANDING can be enlarged.

Such is the case here.

But before I get into that; I personally suspect the culprit is the OLD [pre Vatican II] church position where the laity went to Confession and Mass, and that was about the extent of our [NORMAL] participation. Sure we might have been an Usher???

Then almost over night it seems that the Laity TOOK over the Church; CCD, PSR, RCIA Teachers, [now ordinary] - Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist [a term meaning to “Give Thanks”; Lay Lectors; and so on…

Oldsters like me [71] remember the Old Church. And in that Church participation meant Confession and Mass. And little more.

So with the innovations of the Post Vatican II period; some different terminology seems to have been inevitable.

So now in stead of "Holy Communion:; we have Eucharist.

Instead of Mass we have the “Eucharistic Celebration”

What we see here is both the definition AND therefore OUR [needed] understanding have grown to acknowledge our necessary THANKFULNESS for Jesus being in Catholic Holy Communion.

Our 1992 & 1994 Catechism of the Catholic Church #1345 may well have had a great deal to do with this?

1345 As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: ‘Amen.’

**When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” **bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.

God Bless you and thanks for asking!
Patrick

Actually Patrick, I was saying I don’t like that we changed the term. I understand it however. Remember that I also taught in the church just as you did. I did say no reply was necessary.

I’m reposting because the explanation is very good and many catholics do not know the distinction. I do believe we like to complicate things, however.

Fran

 

[TonyBS]

I know that you do not see Jesus quite in this way and you seem to think it limits me. If you could just tell me one thing you know that you feel Jesus did not teach. It would be interesting.Fran

Dear Fran - You have a wonderful Faith, you are not limited

To answer your question fully is off topic, so just a quick note

Firstly Jesus Word contains all that we can know, what was the issue was that mankind was not ready for all that could be known. Thus there was more to say unto us.

If one really looks justly at the past, one can say knowledge definitely started increasing rapidly from the early to mid 1800’s…why was this so?

This statement is of interest from 1843 "in a report to Congress in 1843 by an earlier Patent Office Commissioner, Henry Ellsworth. In it Ellsworth states, “The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end.” Then 60 odd years later Charles H. Duell who was the Commissioner of US patent office. It is said that Mr. Deull’s most famous attributed utterance is that “In my opinion, all previous advances in the various lines of invention will appear totally insignificant when compared with those which the present century will witness. I almost wish that I might live my life over again to see the wonders which are at the threshold”

Perfect unfolding of this Daniel12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” On to revelation 22:10 "And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near”.
.
Now I would ask, could Jesus 2000 years ago teach the Oneness of God and God is the Founder of all true religion without telling us that fact in Parables and words of Hidden Meaning and hope we would all be detached enough to accept it. After all the extent of the world and religions was not even known!

Has the world accepted the Oneness of God and His religions even now!

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[guanophore]

Well, Laughing Boy, I’m going to get slack for this but I’ll say it anyway: Maybe it takes a protestant to understand catholic theology! I don’t even mean re the Eucharist, but your posts on the Church being the Body of Christ. Maybe it’s because you personally know people outside the Catholic church that are saved because they belong to the Body?

Just a thought. I do find it strange that we have such disagreement on this.

Fran

But that is just it, Fran. If they belong to the Body, they are not “outside the church”. They may not be visible as Catholics, but since there is only one Church, and all who are members of Christ are members of it, they cannot be "outside’. As it says in the catechism, they are joined to us in Baptism, albeit improperly due to the embracing of various heresies.

 

[guanophore]

Thanks, but I still don't understand the nature of the "unbloody sacrifice". Does it add to justification? Does it forgive sins?

Jesus commanded us to celebrate the unbloody sacrifice as a memorial of His suffering and death. This memorial meal is an enactment, just like the Passover. He taught that “unless you eat my Body and Drink my blood, you will have no life in you”. If you have the life if Christ in you are you justified? Are your sins forgiven?

 

[guanophore]

TC033

Don’t get mixed up again.

The Catholic Church is a member of THE Chruch or the Body of Christ.

Keep it simple!

Fran

I don’t think this is correct, Fran.

The CC teaches that the Body of Christ “subsists” in the CC.

But organizations do not become members of the Body, only individuals. There are no “churches” or ecclesial communities that belong as a whole to the Body of Christ. There are individuals from all kinds of ecclesial communities that are members of the One Body.

 

[guanophore]

Aren’t we judging the soul of others when we state that “outside the church there is no salvation” intending to mean the Catholic Church??

I don’t see how.

There is only one Church, and all who are “in Christ” are members of His One Body, the Church.

It is not up to us to decide which individual souls are “in Christ”. Jesus taught that the wheat and tares would grow together, and that the angels would separate them at the end of the age.

It would be nice if we, as catholics, could state clearly what the CCC teaches. I mean, sometimes I get confused! Well, not really…

Fran

The teaching on EENS is one that has changed radically since Vatican 2. Prior to that time, it was commonly propogated that people needed to be visible members. Vatican2 went to great lengths to clarify that there are people who are joined to the One Body that belong to non-Catholic ecclesial communities. All are saved through the One Church, founded by Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Laughing Boy in post no. 153 has given you the correct answer.

You simplify it with one sentence.

I’ve been trying to explain this difference for 3 months and have been unable to.

Everyone who believes in Christ is a member of the Church. Catholic means universal in Greek and was used in that way in the beginning of Christianity and I think this causes much confusion. We, as catholics, also have the CCC which could be used. The salvation of others is spoken of in pp no. 1271 but we love to ignore it.

Could you imagine if only Catholics went to heaven??

Christ IS the Church.
The Church is everyone who believes and follows Him. It is the Body of Christ.

I thank you!

Fran

Ok, so now can we agree that, outside the Church there is no salvation?

 

[frangiuliano115]

Thanks, but I still don’t understand the nature of the “unbloody sacrifice”. Does it add to justification? Does it forgive sins?

Until Jesus returns, we are the body of Christ. All authority has been given to Him. We are to rule and to reign in His place. He has won the victory for us . We are more than conquerers. We are a kingdom of kings and priests. It is because His work is finished.

Hi eazyduzit

The unbloody sacrifice. Catholics started calling it this because protestants accuse us of resacrificing Jesus at every Mass, which is not the case. So the term unbloody sacrifice is being used. Forget about that word.

Jesus said Do This In Memory of Me. Do what? The Eucharist. The Host. Communion. The Lord’s Supper. Remember what? His sacrifice on the cross.

At the Mass we celebrate a MEMORIAL. What is a memorial? It’s NOT a remembering. We cannot remember the crucifixion because we were not present - thus no memory of it. However, a memorial is in memory and respect for a a happening of which we were not part.

Jesus died only that one time. He is not recrucified at each Mass. Since God is out of space and time, it’s as if we are standing present at the crucifixion. It’s actually very beautiful if you think of it. So, in this way it could be understood as an unbloody sacrifice, I, myself, do not care for that term because it causes confusion.

So the Mass IS a sacrifice, however, in the sense that we add our own daily toils, sufferings and sacrifices to the Lord’s. Not because His wasn’t enough for salvation. It’s kind of like when we offer up our suffering to the Lord. We OFFER it to Him. Not because He needs it, but because we need to let go of it.

Eazyduzit, it does not add to justification. How could anything add to justificaton? It’s a free gift of God BASED on the crucifixion and sacrifice of Jesus. God justifies us, Ephesians 2.8.

Does it forgive sins? This is something very different. Catholics have gradation of sins. Venial and mortal. We won’t go there. But at the beginning of every Mass there is a penitential rite. Venial sins could be forgiven at this penitential rite. Also, they could be forgiven at confession and also they are forgiven when receiving communion. A lot of catholics that don’t study their faith don’t know that receiving communion forgives sins. Mortal sin, OTOH, must be confessed and absolved by a priest.

I can’t think of anything else right now.
Catholics also believe that Jesus died to forgive sin and sins. The Mass does not recrucify Him so they call it a bloodless sacrifice - Mass as sacrifice without blood.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

Dear Fran - You have a wonderful Faith, you are not limited

To answer your question fully is off topic, so just a quick note

Firstly Jesus Word contains all that we can know, what was the issue was that mankind was not ready for all that could be known. Thus there was more to say unto us.

If one really looks justly at the past, one can say knowledge definitely started increasing rapidly from the early to mid 1800’s…why was this so?

This statement is of interest from 1843 "in a report to Congress in 1843 by an earlier Patent Office Commissioner, Henry Ellsworth. In it Ellsworth states, “The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end.” Then 60 odd years later Charles H. Duell who was the Commissioner of US patent office. It is said that Mr. Deull’s most famous attributed utterance is that “In my opinion, all previous advances in the various lines of invention will appear totally insignificant when compared with those which the present century will witness. I almost wish that I might live my life over again to see the wonders which are at the threshold”

Perfect unfolding of this Daniel12:4 "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” On to revelation 22:10 "And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near”.
.
Now I would ask, could Jesus 2000 years ago teach the Oneness of God and God is the Founder of all true religion without telling us that fact in Parables and words of Hidden Meaning and hope we would all be detached enough to accept it. After all the extent of the world and religions was not even known!

Has the world accepted the Oneness of God and His religions even now!

God Bless and Regards Tony

I was reading Daniel 12:4 just the other day! What does shut up the words mean?
Will have to PM you. This will require some thought.

Fran
(I don’t think the world has accepted the oneness of God)

 

[frangiuliano115]

But that is just it, Fran. If they belong to the Body, they are not “outside the church”. They may not be visible as Catholics, but since there is only one Church, and all who are members of Christ are members of it, they cannot be "outside’. As it says in the catechism, they are joined to us in Baptism, albeit improperly due to the embracing of various heresies.

 

[frangiuliano115]

I don’t think this is correct, Fran.

The CC teaches that the Body of Christ “subsists” in the CC.

But organizations do not become members of the Body, only individuals. There are no “churches” or ecclesial communities that belong as a whole to the Body of Christ. There are individuals from all kinds of ecclesial communities that are members of the One Body.

I stand corrected –

And happily so!