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frangiuliano115
Guest
:clapping:
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frangiuliano115
Guest
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Well Guanophore,
My calendar is marked in red!
It’s been rather disconcerting to me to hear on these threads many that judge people’s souls. (not you) Declaring who is saved and who isn’t. Declaring in the concept of EENS, which is no longer accepted by our church and is no longer valid. The early church fathers declared this but the Catholic Church was the only church back then so the meaning was different. Catholic also meant universal.
So good, we agree. It only took 4 or 5 months. As usual, we might have been saying the same thing all along but using different words - as is usually the case!
Fran
My calendar is marked in red!
It’s been rather disconcerting to me to hear on these threads many that judge people’s souls. (not you) Declaring who is saved and who isn’t. Declaring in the concept of EENS, which is no longer accepted by our church and is no longer valid. The early church fathers declared this but the Catholic Church was the only church back then so the meaning was different. Catholic also meant universal.
So good, we agree. It only took 4 or 5 months. As usual, we might have been saying the same thing all along but using different words - as is usually the case!
Fran
LaughingBoy1503
Well-known member
Acts 9:3-5New International Version (NIV)
3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.
Did Saul know Jesus personally before this vision? Did he personally persecute Jesus? He was persecuting Jesus’s Church. And Christ asked him “Why do you persecute me?”
The Church and Christ are inseparable. Of course we do not worship The Chuch as Christ or anything, but Jesus makes it clear. He IS The Church in some kind of mysterious way. Just like we are The Body of Christ. It does not make US Christ but God said The Church is his mystical body.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
I think Guanophore just made a typo by putting “not” in there…
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frangiuliano115
Guest
LaughingBoy1503
Well-known member
It takes a protestant to understand Catholic Theology? If you are refering to me, I am not a protestant, I am a ex protestant. I am Catholic. A convert, but equally Catholic as a cradle Catholic. It was SOOOO weird reading “It takes a protestant to understand Catholic theology”
The fact that I believe people who are not Catholic can be saved has nothing to do with who I know… I believe it because it is what The Catholic Church teaches. No more no less. I do not know who will be saved (Individually) protestant or Catholic no matter how good or bad them seem to be. Only God can judge a person without error.
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guanophore
Guest
No, Fran, there are NO EXCEPTIONS!
There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved.
As Paul makes clear in Romans, those who do not know Christ, but seek the Truth and act win accordance with their conscience are somehow mysteriously grafted into His One Body in ways we may not be able to observe or understand.
I thought perhaps we might have come to agreement, but clearly not yet.
EENS is part of the Sacred Deposit of the Faith. It is an infallible doctrine of the Church, and therefore, cannot be changed, or rejected, or relegated to “invalid” as you state here…
Our understanding of what it means has grown and changed, but the doctrine has not.
To say that it has “changed” and “is no longer valid” contradicts the Teaching of the Catholic Church.
Perhaps this article can explain it better?
I can only continue to beg you not to cause a scandal by denying the Teachings of the Church. For a catechist to claim that the infallible teachings are “no longer valid” is very distressing, and misrepresents the faith.
T
TC3033
Guest
Bingo…that is what I was getting at.
That is one of the reasons I don’t feel comfortable, or feel unwelcome as a non-Catholic to go to Mass with my family.
My observation/experience is what appears as exclusiveness vs. inclusiveness is different/confusing to me.
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HerCrazierHalf
Guest
As I understand it infant baptism puts certain obligations on the Catholic parent to teach and “push” the child to receive the varied sacraments of the faith. But as the child matures the obligations that come with Catholicism become his/her’s, as far as my understanding of these things go.
Obligations such as Sunday mass, Catholic marriage requirements, confirmation, etc.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Of course exclusiveness is strange.
Thinking that God only wants people of any particular church to be with Him forever is strange indeed.
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
You can call it what you will.No, Fran, there are NO EXCEPTIONS!
There is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved.
As Paul makes clear in Romans, those who do not know Christ, but seek the Truth and act win accordance with their conscience are somehow mysteriously grafted into His One Body in ways we may not be able to observe or understand.
I thought perhaps we might have come to agreement, but clearly not yet.
EENS is part of the Sacred Deposit of the Faith. It is an infallible doctrine of the Church, and therefore, cannot be changed, or rejected, or relegated to “invalid” as you state here…
Our understanding of what it means has grown and changed, but the doctrine has not.
To say that it has “changed” and “is no longer valid” contradicts the Teaching of the Catholic Church.
Perhaps this article can explain it better?
I can only continue to beg you not to cause a scandal by denying the Teachings of the Church. For a catechist to claim that the infallible teachings are “no longer valid” is very distressing, and misrepresents the faith.
It has morphed, it has changed, it has become invalid.
The old idea is OUt
The new idea is IN
And the New Idea is that people outside of the Catholic church can be and are saved.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
This is interesting. The Monsignor of my parish has often said when meeting with us that some persons have requested that baptism be “undone.” Of course, the way Catholics understand it, this is impossible to do since baptism leaves a mark on you that cannot be removed.
Believe me on this: No matter how much the church “pushes” the child to receive varied sacraments, it has nothing to do with baptism putting that onus on the parent. Most parents want their children to make their first communion because it’s something to do, not because they really value what it means. There are few parents that value what it really means and I can attest to this having taught catechism in the catholic church.
So if a child grows and want to “remain” in the church he should receive first communion, reconcilittion (confession) and confirmation. In my personal opinion, confirmation should be at the request of the child, but actually the church beleives it should be right after baptism since it is a sacrament of initiation.
As far as marriage, a catholic can get married civilly if he so wishes. No one is obligated to be married in church if he does not desire it.
Fran
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TC3033
Guest
Than why does it happen, or are you saying it doesn’t?
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Not every catholic practices his faith.
OF COURSE if a catholic wants to practice his faith he’ll get married in church!
The poster was expressing his idea that a catholic (by name) HAD to get married in church as one would also HAVE TO be confirmed. He was referring to babies that have been baptized being FORCED to make communion, confirmation, marriage in church, etc.
NO ONE can force a child to receive any of the sacraments if his parents do not desire this, and certainly no one can force a baptised person to be married in church if he does not desire it.
Fran
OF COURSE if a catholic wants to practice his faith he’ll get married in church!
The poster was expressing his idea that a catholic (by name) HAD to get married in church as one would also HAVE TO be confirmed. He was referring to babies that have been baptized being FORCED to make communion, confirmation, marriage in church, etc.
NO ONE can force a child to receive any of the sacraments if his parents do not desire this, and certainly no one can force a baptised person to be married in church if he does not desire it.
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Let’s make it simple.
God wants everyone who wants to be with Him.
For God So Loved The World That He Gave his Only Begotten Son, That WHOSOEVER Believeth In Him Should Not Perish But Have Everlasting Life.
That seems pretty clear to me.
If some churches want to say that salvation is only through that particular church, I’d have to disagree. The Catholic Church also believes people outside the church can be saved. But some catholics refuse to believe this because of something a church father said back in the 300’s. They could check out CCC no. 1271 or ask their local priest, if they’d like to confirm. What the catholic church says is that one outside belongs to the body of Christ and has the faith but that it is not complete. Pope Benedict confirms this as does Pope Francis. I’m sure it could be confirmed on the net.
Fran
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TC3033
Guest
OK, so we’re in agreement so far.
Can you answer what is up with the exclusiveness? My wife and I were at a town festival this fall where members of one of the Catholic Churches in town wore shirts that stated “everyone welcome”, when it doesn’t seem so.
Where does the exclusionary side come from? When joining our current Parrish, the Father wanted exactly zero to do with any family members who were not Catholic. My wife was welcome to Mass, but basically I wasn’t. In the directory I’m “asterisked” to make sure everyone knows I’m not Catholic. At Church festivals, I’m not asked to be a part yet others who attend Mass only at Easter and Christmas are…because they’re Catholic.
Like I said, the exclusionary side is quite confusing to me as I grew up wanting to make sure all in our Church “family” is included.
meltzerboy
New member
My comment refers not only to Catholicism but to Christianity in general. Where does the belief that we humans need to be “saved” come from, and does the belief mean saved from damnation or hell or something in addition to that? Judaism does not believe in salvation in the Christian sense of saved from damnation. Neither does it believe that following the Law “saves” since we are not damned in the first place. Rather, it believes that by practicing the Law (as best we can), we have the opportunity to lead a better, more productive, and more meaningful life while doing G-d’s Will. We don’t believe we are in need of a Savior (which is not the meaning of Messiah according to the Hebrew word) for our sins since we have the power to atone for them and we are not damned by them.
IOW, what I am wondering is when, how, and why did Christianity interpret the teachings of the Hebrew Bible in terms of a salvation religion?
IOW, what I am wondering is when, how, and why did Christianity interpret the teachings of the Hebrew Bible in terms of a salvation religion?
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Hi TC,
There are all types everywhere. Most will try to be nice and welcoming, but human nature is what it is.
I try to make the best of every situation and accept people as they are.
We are all serving the same God and I hope everyone could understand this! We are indeed one family.
God Bless
Fran
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dskysmine
Guest
I always lived as a Catholic and although I do understand their uses I still find them very strange:
-Getting blessings for everyday objects/rosaries
-Flagrum and cilices
-Scapulars
Anyways, not sure this is just for non-Catholics.
God Bless,
D.
-Getting blessings for everyday objects/rosaries
-Flagrum and cilices
-Scapulars
Anyways, not sure this is just for non-Catholics.
God Bless,
D.
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