What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[PJM]

=frangiuliano115;13468547]How we bicker and are not united in our beliefs.

From my perspective there are two separate forums involved here:

1 Within our Catholic church

2 All Faiths outside of Catholicism

The single issue that ought to and has the potential to unify both is a five LETTER word:
**TRUTH **

Pope Benedict XVI had this to say about it: “there cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth.”

And the TRUTH is that this infallible wisdom is disdained and overlooked.

Both in-fractions, seem to choose, if not outright desire to dictate to God how He is to be worshiped. Imagine THAT How He is to accept their means; their compassion; their idea of what you God desire; rather than in humility actually seek what must be you’re single truth per defined issue…

Certainly some of this is God’s doing; with holding necessary Wisdom until Souls turn to Him; seeking HIS Guidance. How much; only God knows.

Each of these two groups need desperately our prayers:thumbsup:

One True God

Only One True set of Faith beliefs

Only One true Church the new term in the NT for MY Church & MY “chosen people”

God Bless you,

Patrick.

 

[Michael68]

Yes. And please don’t take offense, but why do many Catholics seem bent towards superstition and sign seeking. Observing the images of Mary or Christ in overpasses and grilled cheese sandwiches etc. Then hundreds flock to the overpass to be close to the holy water stain. When I went to Mexico this behavior seemed to be even more intense amongst the Catholics. Is this as tawdry and offensive to you as it is to me?

Are you offended by Our Lady of Fatima too?

 

[SalusaSecondus]

Are you offended by Our Lady of Fatima too?

I don’t even believe in it so I am not offended by that. My buddy who was an eastern Catholic was deeply offended by Fatima though.

I do find the insistence that Jesus appears in the form of tortilla chips to be offensive though.

 

[PJM]

=adrift;13469255]Was He? Really? What evidence do you base this on especially since He tell them to"do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you" ?Matthew 23:3 Jesus didn’t oppose the hierarchical stricter as God instituted it. What Jesus objected to is “For they preach but they do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them”

Where did He preach this? Luke 2:49 seems to contradict your statement. Sacrifices were made in the Temple were fulfilled in the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus said that He did not come to abolish but to fulfill Matthew 5:17

Strange It doesn’t match with what Jesus said
Luke 22:19
John 20:23
Matthew 28:19
James 5:14
All rituals ordered by Jesus our mediator to God 1 Timothy 2:5

Great post:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

=Alex H;13469685]Marian Apparitions.

Shouldn’t it be Jesus appearing to everyone? Why Mary?

GREAT Question!

First of All Mary could not be doing it with Gods Power, authority and assent

John 19: 25-28
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’ s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.

When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. [28] Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst.

What then are the LESSONS [plural here?]

1 Literally Jesus here commanded his Mother to become OUR [the worlds] Mother

NOTE that twice it is sated Jesus recognized His MOTHER; but then call’s Her “WOMEN”; the universal term. The not Jesus tells John to accept His Mother as HIS Mother [on behalf of humanity]; and he immediately does so.

NEXT: Note the next verse; and Jesus mere moments before His Death; shouts I THIRST!

Jesus here is NOT asking for a drink. Earlier he had declined one. What Jesus is teaching all of US here is that despite all that He had done; despite all that He had suffered, that He Jesus DESIRED to do even more for us!

THAT MORE took 3 forms:

Christ gave us His Church [singular]

Christ gave us the Seven Sacraments

Christ gave us Mary as our Mother; NOT out of any absolute need or necessity to to so; RATHER because it would GREATLY benefit the Salvation of Souls.

Certainly we CAN go directly to Jesus Himself in prayer and petition…

BUT by going through Mary; She adds Her own petition on top of ours and then personally presents it to Her Son. Thereby increasing the urgency and efficacy of our needs and wants.

For those who may be unaware the by far; most common prayer THROUGH Mary [ALL prayers are intended to end with God], is the “Hail Mary.” Thsi prayer is solidly bible grounded:

**Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” *
*

God Bless you, AND “may Mary be ever on our lips and remembrance of Her always in OUR hearts” [Fr. John A. Hardon S.J.]

Patrick:thumbsup:**

 

[meltzerboy]

Mary: Mother of God

Thank you for the informative link.

 

[Alex_H]

GREAT Question!

First of All Mary could not be doing it with Gods Power, authority and assent

John 19: 25-28
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, and his mother’ s sister, Mary of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalen.

When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own. [28] Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst.

What then are the LESSONS [plural here?]

1 Literally Jesus here commanded his Mother to become OUR [the worlds] Mother

NOTE that twice it is sated Jesus recognized His MOTHER; but then call’s Her “WOMEN”; the universal term. The not Jesus tells John to accept His Mother as HIS Mother [on behalf of humanity]; and he immediately does so.

NEXT: Note the next verse; and Jesus mere moments before His Death; shouts I THIRST!

Jesus here is NOT asking for a drink. Earlier he had declined one. What Jesus is teaching all of US here is that despite all that He had done; despite all that He had suffered, that He Jesus DESIRED to do even more for us!

THAT MORE took 3 forms:

Christ gave us His Church [singular]

Christ gave us the Seven Sacraments

Christ gave us Mary as our Mother; NOT out of any absolute need or necessity to to so; RATHER because it would GREATLY benefit the Salvation of Souls.

Certainly we CAN go directly to Jesus Himself in prayer and petition…

BUT by going through Mary; She adds Her own petition on top of ours and then personally presents it to Her Son. Thereby increasing the urgency and efficacy of our needs and wants.

For those who may be unaware the by far; most common prayer THROUGH Mary [ALL prayers are intended to end with God], is the “Hail Mary.” Thsi prayer is solidly bible grounded:

**Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” *

---

God Bless you, AND “may Mary be ever on our lips and remembrance of Her always in OUR hearts” [Fr. John A. Hardon S.J.]

Patrick:thumbsup:Wow what a great post!

 

[frangiuliano115]

meltzerboy:
In what sense do Christians (including Catholics) believe that Jesus has a (human) Mother? Is it Jesus as G-d Who has a Mother, Jesus only as human being Who has a Mother, Jesus the Incarnate Word of G-d Who has a Mother, or Jesus as hypostatic union of G-d and man Who has a Mother? If all of the above, is it really possible for G-d in any Person of the Trinity to have a Mother? This may be easy to answer for a learned Catholic but I find it difficult to understand.

Very interesting question. One many catholics don’t think of.

I know the answer, but let’s see if PJM answers - I think he will.

Fran

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Since you ask, the thing that seems strange to me is why a human priest must stand daily at an altar to offer a “a sacrifice at his hands”. If one is to believe and rest in the finished work of Christ, then it would seem well to avoid all appearance of adding to it.

Second is the need for a separate priesthood. The reason for setting aside the Levitical priesthood was because of sin and a because a sinful people could no approach a holy God. But now that sin has been atoned for and put away forever and we are no longer separated from God as in the OT then why do we still need a separate priesthood to do spiritual things for us?

I don’t understand it.

Priests do not add to Christs work in the Mass. They re-present the sacrifice, there is no new sacrifice of Christ. The Priest is ordained by the laying on of hands just as Jesus ordained his Apostles. In the Mass the Priest is doing what Jesus asked at the Last Supper “do this in remembrance of me”.

Catholics believe in a “universal priesthood” i.e. all believers (you/me) are priests who can offer intercessions, praises, and spiritual sacrifice. We also believe in a special “ministerial priesthood”. "The very same verses which talk about the universal priesthood imply that there is a non-universal one. (refer Exodus 19:6) It isn’t just the Church which is a kingdom of priests. Israel was a kingdom of priests, too.

If you keep reading in Exodus 19, when you get down to verse 21 & 22, you will find God telling Moses to warn the people and the priests not to come onto the holy mountain, lest the Lord break out against them. So even in the very same chapter God is calling the whole nation a kingdom of priests, there is still a separate, ministerial priesthood.

Please note: this priesthood was not the Levitical priesthood. That wasn’t created until much later in Exodus. This one was not founded on the Law of Moses, but predated the Law, meaning no one can say it was only God’s pattern to have special, ministerial priests under the Mosaic economy. God had priests long before the Mosaic law, as indicated not only by this priesthood in Exodus 19, but by Moses’ father-in-law, Jethro, and by Abraham’s contemporary, Melchizedek." (J.Akin)

Not sure where you got the idea that a sinful people could not approach God. God was not separated from the people in the Old Testament. He communicated directly with Moses and several other characters in the OT.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

meltzerboy:
In what sense do Christians (including Catholics) believe that Jesus has a (human) Mother? Is it Jesus as G-d Who has a Mother, Jesus only as human being Who has a Mother, Jesus the Incarnate Word of G-d Who has a Mother, or Jesus as hypostatic union of G-d and man Who has a Mother? If all of the above, is it really possible for G-d in any Person of the Trinity to have a Mother? This may be easy to answer for a learned Catholic but I find it difficult to understand.

HUGE THEOLOGICAL QUESTION RIGHT THERE? Tim Staples explanation below:

"Mary is the Mother of God precisely because Jesus Christ, her Son, is God. And when Mary gave birth, she did not give birth to a nature, or even two natures; she gave birth to one, divine Person. To deny this essential truth of the faith, as the Council of Ephesus (A.D. 431) declared, is to cut oneself off from full communion with Christ and his Church. The first of many “anathemas” that would be accepted by the Council decreed: “If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the Word of God become flesh by birth), let him be anathema.”

Notice the Council referred to the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 in its definition. This text prophesied over 700 years before the birth of Christ that the Messiah was to be born of a woman and yet he was to be “God with us.”

The real problem with denying Mary as Mother of God and affirming Mary to be only the mother of the man Christ Jesus is that in doing so, one invariably either denies the divinity of Christ (as the fourth-century Arians did), or one creates two persons with regard to Jesus Christ. Either error results in heresy. The Councils of Nicaea (325) and Constantinople (381) dealt decisively with the Arian heresy. Rather than teaching the truth that Christ is one divine person with two natures—one human, and one divine—hypostatically unified, or joined together without admixture in the one divine Person of Christ, they were teaching Christ to be two persons with a merely moral union. The Council fathers understood Christians could never affirm this. The Bible declares to us: “. . . in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col. 2:9). And, “. . . in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible . . .” (Col. 1:16). Nowhere do we read in them; we only read of him. The error proposes essentially different Christs. Jesus is truly one divine Person. If one prays to a Jesus who is two persons, one prays to a “Jesus” who does not exist!

Objection 3: The “Quadrinity”?

"If God is Trinity, and Mary is the Mother of God, would that not mean Mary is the Mother of the Trinity?" Actually, it does not. Paragraph 495 of the Catechism is very clear that Mary is the Mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity because neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit is incarnate. Simple enough. But the problem here may be deeper than just a confusion of persons within the Godhead. In my experience, this simple explanation almost invariably leads to another question that reveals the real difficulty for many Fundamentalists: “Even if Mary is only the Mother of the second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus is just as eternal as the other two divine Persons are. Thus, in order to be his mother, Mary would have to be equally as eternal.” The root of this “Quadrinity” problem is a false understanding of what is meant by Mary’s true motherhood and perhaps a false understanding of is meant by motherhood in general.

By saying Mary is the Mother of God, the Catholic Church is not saying that Mary is the source of the divine nature among the three Persons of the Blessed Trinity, nor is she the source of the divine nature of the second Person. But she doesn’t have to be in order to be the Mother of the second Person of the Blessed Trinity incarnate. Perhaps an analogy using normal human reproduction will help clarify the truth of the matter. My wife is the mother of my son, Timmy. But this does not mean she is the source of Timmy’s immortal soul. God directly and immediately created his soul as he does with every human being (see Eccl. 12:7). However, we do not conclude then that Valerie is merely “the mother of Timmy’s body.” She is Timmy’s mother, period. She did not give birth to a body; she gave birth to a human person who is a body/soul composite: Timmy.

Analogously, though Mary did not provide Jesus with either his divine nature or his immortal human soul, she is still his Mother because she did not give birth to a body, a soul, a nature, or even two natures—she gave birth to a Person. And that one Person is God. The conclusion to the whole matter is inescapable. Just as many of the more traditional Protestants would confess with us as Catholics: If Jesus Christ is one, eternal and unchangeable divine person—God—and Mary is his mother, then Mary is the Mother of that one, eternal and unchangeable person—God.

 

[frangiuliano115]

WHY? Because Jesus Himself commanded it:thumbsup:
Lk. 22: 17-23 “And having taken the chalice, he gave thanks, and said: Take, and divide it among you: For I say to you, that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, till the kingdom of God come. And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: [YOU!] This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. [20] In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.”

same also in: Mt. 26: 26-28; Mk. 14: 22-24; John 6:41-56; & Paul 1st. Cor. 11:23-30

Catholic Eucharist is:
FROM God the Father
OF God the Son
BY God the Holy Spirit

Eucharist is the “RE-presentation”; that is making the original Sacrifice of Christ PRESENT time and time again. Because Even Jesus in His human nature can die only one time. This is a Mystery and a dual set of miracles:

1st Miracle the priest is mysteriously transformed into 'Alter Christi" [another CHRIST] at the very instant of the Consecration.
2nd Miracle:What WAS ordinary bread is transubstanuated [a theoligical term] in to the REAL Body, Soul and Divinity of Jesus [GLORIFED Body] & and the ordinary wine become they very Blood of Jesus:

Jn. 6: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him

NOTE VERSE 56. Friend, How can God have been more precise in the WORDS HE choose:shrug: And verse 57 is precisely what DOES take place in Catholic Holy Communion

The Levitical priest hood was in several CRITICALLY important way’s inferior to the Catholic Priesthood; established by Jesus at the Last Supper along with the Eucharist: one cannot exist without the other. Eucharist is “the sum and the SUMMIT” of Catholicism!

They offered sacrifices to God as commanded [imperfect]

Catholic Priest Offer Up God to GOD as commanded! [absolutely PERFECT!]

Leviticus priest 'covered over" the sins of their penitents. God accepted this THEN ;NOT NOW!] because it was before Grace:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you;** for you are not under the law, but under grace**.

**Lev.5: 13 “Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven. And the remainder shall be for the priest, as in the cereal offering." … Lev.6:7 **“and the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any of the things which one may do and thereby become guilty."

NOW under Grace:

Jn. 20: 19-23 "He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

Once again I ask:

How can God have been more precise in the language he choose? AS MY Father sent Me; NOW I God send you!"

For the doubters out there:

Mt 10: 1-2 & 8

1] And having called his twelve disciples together,** he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities**. [2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, [8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give"

With prayer my friend this could increase your right understanding:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

I just want to say that the word Eucharist has caused misunderstanding in the church teachings. I liked it better when we used the words Mass and Communion.

Now Eucharistic Celebration is meant to be Mass. Okay. But then we have the Eucharistic prayer and consecration takes place.

Then we have the rite of Communion.

So, it would seem that Eucharistic has two separate meanings and this gets confusing to explain. At least for me. One lady told me she can’t even remember the word “eucharist” ever being used years ago. Honestly, I can’t remember and I’ve forgotten to check it out.

Just a thought. No reply necessary.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

You realize that when I stated that Jesus instituted the sacrifice of the Mass I was referring to the Eucharist? The Eucharist is not possible without a priesthood.

I understood this

You make it seem that God failed. God’s plan did not fail. Every sacrament began in the Old Testament They were made complete in the New. There completion could not be accomplished until the cross.

I already answered PJM regarding, in my opinion, the confusion the word “eucharist” causes.
You also use the terms interchangeably above.

God failing. God didn’t fail. But, overall, man’s reception of his message certainly failed. Ij’m referring to His message. He did try many different ways to make us understand what He wanted: For instance our HEART and not sacrifices even. Different times this is stated. Can’t look up too many right now, but try Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah.

The sacrifice of Jesus is separate, as I understand it and this was planned form the beginning, see Genesis 3.15 - and is accomplished in the cross, as you say. We now understand, fully, what God expects from us as show to us through the teachings of Jesus, the perfect revelation from/of God.

Fran

 

[JustaServant]

Yes. And please don’t take offense, but why do many Catholics seem bent towards superstition and sign seeking. Observing the images of Mary or Christ in overpasses and grilled cheese sandwiches etc. Then hundreds flock to the overpass to be close to the holy water stain. When I went to Mexico this behavior seemed to be even more intense amongst the Catholics. Is this as tawdry and offensive to you as it is to me?

As a Lutheran you are just as susceptible to prejudice as Catholics are. You appear to be bright enough to know the “many Catholics” you are talking about are in a small minority. Then I have to ask what is the purpose of this post? If it’s to see how far you can push the moderator before you get slammed, that’s not terrible productive.

 

[JustaServant]

I don’t even believe in it so I am not offended by that. My buddy who was an eastern Catholic was deeply offended by Fatima though.

I do find the insistence that Jesus appears in the form of tortilla chips to be offensive though.

Another cheap shot.
Why don’t try being a little more charitable?

 

[frangiuliano115]

Am I understanding you correctly that you believe that there are many Catholics who worship saints?

You know many Catholics who regards saints as gods?

I have never met such a Catholic.

That I believe?
That I know!

The next time you’re in these here parts, come visit me.

I’ll not only introduce you to persons who worship a saint, such as Saint Rocco, Saint Francis, Saint Lawrence, Saint Anthony, the list goes on…

I’ll also bring you to some people who worship non-saints but persons that are just beatified!

Not everyone here understands about worshipping, but I do think things are going to change pretty soon…

Fran

 

[JustaServant]

That I believe?
That I know!

The next time you’re in these here parts, come visit me.

I’ll not only introduce you to persons who worship a saint, such as Saint Rocco, Saint Francis, Saint Lawrence, Saint Anthony, the list goes on…

I’ll also bring you to some people who worship non-saints but persons that are just beatified!

Not everyone here understands about worshipping, but I do think things are going to change pretty soon…

Fran

And I can introduce you to a PHD to stands on street corners talking to himself. So what?
Catholics DO NOT worship saints.

 

[frangiuliano115]

My dear friend in Christ, no offense taken I’m grateful for the opportunity to at least attemp to clear up you’re issues.

The first issue though don’t understand. I’m a 71 year old life long Catholic who has been very active in teaching, and when called defending our Faith for more than 30 years. I can’t ever reacall however having to explain our beliefs and practices as superstition? Perhaps you can be more specific.

As for you’re second point. I can assure that we informed and practicing Catholics find these WEIRD things to be every bit as strange as do you. Much of this is FED by the secular press who seem always eager to cast aspersions on the RCC in hopes to somehow inflict that MORTAL wound that will finally kill her off:shrug:.

Mt. 16:18 “And the gate of hell shall never prevail against Her.”

Catholicism has over One Billion members; scattered all over the world… One I guess ought to expect some fringe strangeness?

Thank you for you’re post, God Bless you,

Patrick

We’re about the same age and I’ve also taught in the church and still do to a degree. Coincidences!

Anyway, I understand what Salusa is talking about. It all depends on where you live and with whom you come into contact, and how educated the catholics are, as you mentioned.

I have some friends who go to a town near Florence every year on a bus trip sponsored by a local parish to visit with this woman who says she sees Mary. This, in my opinion, is seeking a sign. What about trips to places here where there have been bleeding Host mysteries, bleeding statues, the list goes on.

Some catholics DO look for signs. We must be fair…

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

From my perspective there are two separate forums involved here:

1 Within our Catholic church

2 All Faiths outside of Catholicism

The single issue that ought to and has the potential to unify both is a five LETTER word:
**TRUTH **

Pope Benedict XVI had this to say about it: “there cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth.”

And the TRUTH is that this infallible wisdom is disdained and overlooked.

Both in-fractions, seem to choose, if not outright desire to dictate to God how He is to be worshiped. Imagine THAT How He is to accept their means; their compassion; their idea of what you God desire; rather than in humility actually seek what must be you’re single truth per defined issue…

Certainly some of this is God’s doing; with holding necessary Wisdom until Souls turn to Him; seeking HIS Guidance. How much; only God knows.

Each of these two groups need desperately our prayers:thumbsup:

One True God

Only One True set of Faith beliefs

Only One true Church [the new term in the NT for MY Church & MY “chosen people”

God Bless you,

Patrick.

Patrick,
Unfortunately I meant within the Catholic church. I don’t bicker with those outside, I explain. We bicker.

Since we agree on the important stuff, shouldn’t that be enough??

I mean, my idea brings with it much that could be discussed. For instance, maybe we don’t agree on everything because the church has not taught enough in the past years? I think this is changing.

But, I guess the bickering allows others to learn so maybe it’s okay. I’m just not a bickering type of person, I guess.

Fran
[/quote]

 

[frangiuliano115]

And I can introduce you to a PHD to stands on street corners talking to himself. So what?
Catholics DO NOT worship saints.

Your reality is your truth.

 

[JustaServant]

Your reality is your truth.

Catholics DO NOT worship Mary or saints. Never met one growing up. I used to correct it even in my flaming fundamentalist days. I don’t know of any now. Neither has my wife, a convert.
My ‘reality’ corresponds with many MANY other Catholics. So, your ‘reality’ is extremely small.
Any my ‘Truth’ is Christ.