What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[LaughingBoy1503]

I call BS. No Catholic who has a clue will ever worship Mary.

Are you protestant?

She probably means that their Marian Devotion borderlines “Worship” and that they seem to elevate Mary even above Jesus. And it is my experience that the Catholic who do not have a clue do sometimes do this. I recall asking one woman (while I was still protestant, but wanted to become Catholic) “Why are you Catholic?” and she answered “Because I believe in Mary” I hate to say it but that to me is a bad reason to be Catholic because The Catholic Church is Christ centered. This woman was badly uncatechized, I could tell by further conversations with her. Also those who insist that we still use the old fashioned meaning of worship (Dulia or Hyperdulia included but not necessarily Latria) to describe out devotion to Mary. I have actually read posts on here where someone insisted that we do use the word “Worship” in how we describe our devotion to Mary. But he meant the old meaning of worship (Hyperdulia or Dulia) but to non-Catholics, they will think Catholics insist on giving Mary “Latria” (The worship due to God alone) Things like this tend to annoy me.

And no, I am not protestant and I adhere 100% to Church teaching. Read the whole Catechism from cover to cover too

 

[Alex_H]

Marian Apparitions.

Shouldn’t it be Jesus appearing to everyone? Why Mary?

 

[Memaw]

From 4 different Lutheran synods. 4 different opinions. Okay.

Catholics are supposed to be ONE holy, catholic and apostolic church. Not 4 different churches.

We have problems understanding very basic things like what saves us. Is Mary supposed to be worshipped? etc. I was on a thread when i first got here in July that was about how you MUST be devoted to Mary to be saved.

So, it’s like we’re all under this big umbrella, but we don’t agree. I know priests who don’t agree with each other. I know people who read the same pp from the CCC and come up with different answers.

I think it’s okay to have differing opinions on some questions. Like, what does it mean to keep holy the Sabbath - but on what saves us?? There are catholics here who believe their own good works save them - and they think this is what the catholic church teaches.

Fran

If a Catholic doesn’t know and understand their faith, it is because they aren’t interested enough to learn. I am a 79 year old cradle Catholic and I still learn more or understand more about my Catholic Faith. But I have never stopped being interested. God Bless, Memaw

 

[frangiuliano115]

Intentional sins against others might be forgiven by seeking forgiveness from people who were wronged and repenting, that is, changing our behavior toward them. Intentional sins against G-d Himself might be forgiven by means of individual prayer. This is the same approach today according to Jewish teaching.

This is so interesting.

Intentional sins = Repenting. Changing the direction you’re headed, turning the other way.
No need for sacrifice. You ask God directly for forgiveness.

Unintentional sins = Sacrifice is necessary.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Unintentional sins = Original Sin, not imputed persoally - sacrifice is necessary - Jesus
Intentional sins = confession /catholics to a priest - protestants directly to God as in Judaism.

Let me role that around for a while!

Thanks a lot.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

I call BS. No Catholic who has a clue will ever worship Mary.

Are you protestant?

I don’t really understand your whole post.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Having been a ex protestant I somehow disagree with that 99% of Baptists or whatever the denomination that belong to the same church agree on the same things. Just not my experience at all. Of all the protestant Bible studies I have attended the opinions on what scripture means varies greatly. No to mention private revelation that differs from person to person. But this may not be the case in more of the mainline protestant churches, but it is very common in the american protestantism non-denominational, pentecostal, just Jesus and me type of churches . I think Catholics tend to be more unified in beliefs, more just tend to be un catechized and do not know what to believe or do not care to learn what The Church teacher.

But on the original post… I do find it strange to kneel in from of a statue while praying. I know this does not equal worshiping the statue and I do get it, it is a sign of respect. Just like kissing a picture of a deceased loved one does not mean you are worshiping them, using a statue to remember the saints that went before us is perfectly okay. But I still am uncomfortable with does this. No offence to anyone who does… that is not my intention at all. If The Church says it is fine, it is fine. But coming from a protestant background, I guess I am just still not use to it and I find it a bit strange.

We don’t really kneel in front of statues as a sign of respect. People didn’t read the bible and were not educated much before the 1800’s. So we had the rosary, we had paintings, we had the stations of the cross, the glass windows in churches depicting biblical events and persons. Statues were made by pious catholics who did do it out of respect and veneration of their favorite saint, or the more important saints. People kneel in front of the statue because it’s a way of feeling close to them and making them more “real”. I’m sorry, I mean, the kneeling is a sign of respect but the rest got it all started.

I understand your first pp but it’s a bit different from what I said. If you go to non-denominationsl churches each one will have it’s own set of doctrine. BUT within that little church EVERYONE there will agree. They also understand that private or personal revelation is just that and it is not used for teaching. In the catholic church it is - I never really agreed with this but that’s my own personal opinion.

The catholic church has started bible lessons and i believe in the future there may be more consensus. A new Monsignor at a parish near me has started a bible study on the book of Mathew. He said he’s going to get the people attending (about 40) from Moses to Jesus but he did say that it wouldn’t be easy. Many of us are stuck in the Law and don’t even know it.

You will find authority here and I think you’re the type of person who will feel comfortable in having one figure of authority, the church magesterium, and not having it change from denomination to denomination.

Good to have you here!

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

She probably means that their Marian Devotion borderlines “Worship” and that they seem to elevate Mary even above Jesus. And it is my experience that the Catholic who do not have a clue do sometimes do this. I recall asking one woman (while I was still protestant, but wanted to become Catholic) “Why are you Catholic?” and she answered “Because I believe in Mary” I hate to say it but that to me is a bad reason to be Catholic because The Catholic Church is Christ centered. This woman was badly uncatechized, I could tell by further conversations with her. Also those who insist that we still use the old fashioned meaning of worship (Dulia or Hyperdulia included but not necessarily Latria) to describe out devotion to Mary. I have actually read posts on here where someone insisted that we do use the word “Worship” in how we describe our devotion to Mary. But he meant the old meaning of worship (Hyperdulia or Dulia) but to non-Catholics, they will think Catholics insist on giving Mary “Latria” (The worship due to God alone) Things like this tend to annoy me.

And no, I am not protestant and I adhere 100% to Church teaching. Read the whole Catechism from cover to cover too

Laughing Boy,
I’m giving you a big virtual hug.

That it would take a former protestant to explain Marian devotion is extraordinary!

One of the first threads I was on when coming to CAF was about Mary. There were posters there who insisted that you had to be devoted to Mary to be saved. It was making me crazy. I teach in the church and knew for sure this was not correct.

You explained everythng perfectly, dulia, how the word worship USED to be used. Too bad most catholics don’t know these things, but; as I said, it might be changing.

Fran

 

[frangiuliano115]

If a Catholic doesn’t know and understand their faith, it is because they aren’t interested enough to learn. I am a 79 year old cradle Catholic and I still learn more or understand more about my Catholic Faith. But I have never stopped being interested. God Bless, Memaw

Memaw!

The more I learn
The less I know.

I know the bible enough to understand I know nothing!

God bless

 

[drac16]

I suppose it would be the artwork in the buildings (on walls and/or ceilings). They typically depict a lot of angels.

 

[Memaw]

Many catholics believe the church (small c) and Christ are one. I refer them to CCC no. 169 but it does little good. One believes what one believes. As far as Mary, many believe you must worship her to be saved. It’s all very interesting. Jesus’ message seems simple enough to me - I must be wrong…

I don’t know a single Catholic that “worships” Mary. Love Her, yes, asks for Her prayers, YES, thankful to Her for everything She has done for us, YES !! Me thinks you need to study the CCC a lot more! And maybe speak for yourself! God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

Memaw!

The more I learn
The less I know.

I know the bible enough to understand I know nothing!

God bless

AMEN, God Bless, Memaw

 

[Seekerjn316]

Was He? Really? What evidence do you base this on especially since He tell them to"do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you" ?Matthew 23:3 Jesus didn’t oppose the hierarchical stricter as God instituted it. What Jesus objected to is “For they preach but they do not practice. They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them”

Where did He preach this? Luke 2:49 seems to contradict your statement. Sacrifices were made in the Temple were fulfilled in the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus said that He did not come to abolish but to fulfill Matthew 5:17

Strange It doesn’t match with what Jesus said
Luke 22:19
John 20:23
Matthew 28:19
James 5:14
All rituals ordered by Jesus our mediator to God 1 Timothy 2:5

Where did Jesus command and require a priesthood to conduct rituals on behalf of those who have faith in Him?

Where are there comma ds in the NT that reference a need or continuation of a sacrificial priesthood required to perform rituals and rites be conducted in order to receive the mercy and grace directly from. The Fathers Hand?
Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, no human mediator, no priest other than Christ is worthy. He and He alone.

 

[PJM]

*Marian devotion, to outsider eyes almost to the exclusion of Christ…I’ve read that she knows Jesus better than any human so she can bring our petitions to Him and while I may see your point, Jesuz knows me better than any one, so He knows my heart and since Be does, I can go directly to Him, with no other heavenly mediator needed.
*That a human agent is necessary to receive the grace of God by his performing a ritual on my behalf.
*That the church is spoken of almost as much as Christ…I must be a part of an organization…the “true church” to please God…so many other organizations make the same claim.
*I just can’t accept a sacrificial priesthood modeled after the Levitical priesthood.
*rites and rituals needed to receive Gods grace…that grace is somehow measured out and dispensed by the performance of rites and rituals.
"Papal infallibility… To name a few.

 

[adrift]

Where did Jesus command and require a priesthood to conduct rituals on behalf of those who have faith in Him?

Where are there comma ds in the NT that reference a need or continuation of a sacrificial priesthood required to perform rituals and rites be conducted in order to receive the mercy and grace directly from. The Fathers Hand?
Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, no human mediator, no priest other than Christ is worthy. He and He alone.

I asked you questions which you have avoided. I was asking them to understand your position. Why you believe the way you do. Your stated objections I assume are based on Scripture but yet you provide none. Instead you ask a question that is answering a question with a question.
Actually the scriptures I quoted answers your questions. Did you read them? What was the point of having Apostles? If they weren’t Bishops what were they? Where did Jesus say " I am doing away with the priesthood? What was the point of telling Peter he would have the keys? I really am curious about the questions I posed in the other post .

 

[frangiuliano115]

I asked you questions which you have avoided. I was asking them to understand your position. Why you believe the way you do. Your stated objections I assume are based on Scripture but yet you provide none. Instead you ask a question that is answering a question with a question.
Actually the scriptures I quoted answers your questions. Did you read them? What was the point of having Apostles? If they weren’t Bishops what were they? Where did Jesus say " I am doing away with the priesthood? What was the point of telling Peter he would have the keys? I really am curious about the questions I posed in the other post .

The above was to Seeker. Sorry, I’m answering too.

You know, I think you and Seeker are maybe having a communication problem.

Because he doesn’t think priests are needed any longer. Because of the book of Hebrews. There is one High Priest, Jesus the Christ. The Levitical priests have been done away with. Jesus was the last sacrifice. If you check you’ll find that the Jews no longer sacrifice to have their sins forgiven. All sacrifices stopped with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Interesting, isn’t it?

It’s all history. Jesus came to teach us a way to live. But we’re a human race, creatures, and, to some extent we need these rituals and the pomp and ceremony.

Priests back in Judaism were used as representatives between God and man. They offered up the sacrifices. So if we don’t sacrifice anymore, why do we need priests? And if the book of Hebrews is correct, why can’t we just go straight to God since Jesus is our High Priest?

We both believe Jesus is savior. We both believe Jesus is a prophet, a priest and a king.
Amen.

Fran

 

[PJM]

=Seekerjn316;13468212]*Marian devotion, to outsider eyes…, I can go directly to Him, with no other heavenly mediator needed

Because space is limited here on CAF, I can only offer a few points. So PLEASE look for a private message from me

Marian devotions are NOT mandated. They are optional forms of PERSONAL piety in so far as Praying THROUGH her.ALL prayers are intended to end with God! We do honor her Feast day’s.

Are you aware dear friend that what we Catholics do is actually what Christ Desires of us?

John 19:28
“Afterwards, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, said: I thirst”
This was one of they very last WORDS Jesus used in teaching US. Certainly He was NOT asking for a drink of water mere moments before His Death! NO! What He was saying here is that despite all that He had aready done; Jesus DESIRED to do still more.

**That MORE took several Forms:

The Holy Spirit [If I don’t leave you I cannot sen Him]

The Church left with ALL of the Keys to heavens single gate

His Mother; because no one; not even God can deny her hearts request!**

Jn 19: 25-27
"Now there stood by the cross of Jesus, his mother, When Jesus therefore had seen his mother and the disciple standing whom he loved, he saith to his mother: Woman, behold thy son. After that, he saith to the disciple: Behold thy mother.

Note of the WORDS. Jesus did not say “Mother”; He used the universal term WOMEN

This passage teaches us that in His desire to do MORE; Jesus gives us HIS Mother as OUR Mother

That a human agent is necessary to receive the grace of God by his performing a ritual on my behalf

God did not HAVE to do this.

**Mt. 10: 1-2 **"And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, The names of the twelve apostles are these: First, Simon who is called Peter"

God choose to share His Power with THEM

Mt 16: 18-19 “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this[YOU PETER] rock I will build my church,[SINGULAR!] and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee [All Of] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven”

1 st Cor. 11: 23-24 ".For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, Jesus took bread. [24] And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: [YOU!] Do this in commemoration of me.

Jn. 20:21-2321]** He said therefore to them again. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you! When he had said this, he breathed on them** Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, are retained. "**

I assume that you’re speaking of the 7 Sacraments instituted by God to GIVE Grace to aid us in meriting heaven. THIS is why there are many times more Catholics in heaven than any other faith.
.

That the church is spoken of almost as much as Christ…I must be a part of an organization…the “true church” to please God…so many other organizations make the same claim.

The Church is in a Theological terms “another Christ” TRUTH is singular

You’re attempting to DICTATE to you’re GOD what HE must do to make YOU happy.

I just can’t accept a sacrificial priesthood modeled after the Levitical priesthood.

Your misinformed, as I understand you to state it.

**Isa 55:8-9 **"For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts…

The Only Sacrifice Offered by the Priest is NOT a replication of OT practice. They offered sacrifices To God:

Catholic Priest R as instructed by Jesus: DO THIS IN MEMORY OF ME!

Is the Eucharist [Jesus Himself] at Mass

EUCHARIST IS

BY God the Father
OF God the Son
BY God the Holy Spirit

rites and rituals needed to receive Gods grace…that grace is somehow measured out and dispensed by the performance of rites and rituals

GRACE defined by Fr. Hardon’s Dictionary:.
“In biblical language the condescension or benevolence (Greek charis) shown by God toward the human race; it is also the unmerited gift proceeding from this benevolent disposition…As the Church has come to explain the meaning of grace, Grace is the supernatural gift that God, of his free benevolence, bestows on rational creatures for their eternal salvation.”

See also ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, HABITUAL GRACE, JUSTIFYING GRACE, SACRAMENTAL GRACE, SANCTIFYING GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE"

You’re speaking only of ONE FORM of Grace, of which there are many. HOWEVER

Sacramental Grace is the only form that I AM aware of the God permits humanity to in a sense control both how much Grace is Offered and thenhow much Grace is conditionally received.

I do wish I had more space. GREAT questions, thanks,

Patrick.

"Papal infallibility… To name a few.**

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

We don’t really kneel in front of statues as a sign of respect. People didn’t read the bible and were not educated much before the 1800’s. So we had the rosary, we had paintings, we had the stations of the cross, the glass windows in churches depicting biblical events and persons. Statues were made by pious catholics who did do it out of respect and veneration of their favorite saint, or the more important saints. People kneel in front of the statue because it’s a way of feeling close to them and making them more “real”. I’m sorry, I mean, the kneeling is a sign of respect but the rest got it all started.

I understand your first pp but it’s a bit different from what I said. If you go to non-denominationsl churches each one will have it’s own set of doctrine. BUT within that little church EVERYONE there will agree. They also understand that private or personal revelation is just that and it is not used for teaching. In the catholic church it is - I never really agreed with this but that’s my own personal opinion.

The catholic church has started bible lessons and i believe in the future there may be more consensus. A new Monsignor at a parish near me has started a bible study on the book of Mathew. He said he’s going to get the people attending (about 40) from Moses to Jesus but he did say that it wouldn’t be easy. Many of us are stuck in the Law and don’t even know it.

You will find authority here and I think you’re the type of person who will feel comfortable in having one figure of authority, the church magesterium, and not having it change from denomination to denomination.

Good to have you here!

Fran

I was protestant and I beg to differ about everyone in the same church will agree on a set of doctrine. Just not my experience. My own mother goes to Calvary chapel and she told me she does not adhere to their teachings exactly. Probably because she believes God speaks to her personally. My point is that you will get a lot of what I just described in Non-denomination protestant churches. The only truth that they will all agree on 100% is their belief in Sola Scriptura. Even though most wont even know that what they believe is called Sola Scriptura lol.

The other factor is that a lot more people are most likely to believe the same thing in a church of a few hundred when compared to a parish with a few thousands. Denomination with a few million people… Catholic Church with 1.2 BIllion people…

Thank you, it is good to be home

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Laughing Boy,
I’m giving you a big virtual hug.

That it would take a former protestant to explain Marian devotion is extraordinary!

One of the first threads I was on when coming to CAF was about Mary. There were posters there who insisted that you had to be devoted to Mary to be saved. It was making me crazy. I teach in the church and knew for sure this was not correct.

You explained everythng perfectly, dulia, how the word worship USED to be used. Too bad most catholics don’t know these things, but; as I said, it might be changing.

Fran

aww shucks

 

[frangiuliano115]

aww shucks

Have a question for you on another thread…

 

[adrift]

The above was to Seeker. Sorry, I’m answering too.

You know, I think you and Seeker are maybe having a communication problem.

Because he doesn’t think priests are needed any longer. Because of the book of Hebrews. There is one High Priest, Jesus the Christ. The Levitical priests have been done away with. Jesus was the last sacrifice. If you check you’ll find that the Jews no longer sacrifice to have their sins forgiven. All sacrifices stopped with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Interesting, isn’t it?

It’s all history. Jesus came to teach us a way to live. But we’re a human race, creatures, and, to some extent we need these rituals and the pomp and ceremony.

Priests back in Judaism were used as representatives between God and man. They offered up the sacrifices. So if we don’t sacrifice anymore, why do we need priests? And if the book of Hebrews is correct, why can’t we just go straight to God since Jesus is our High Priest?

We both believe Jesus is savior. We both believe Jesus is a prophet, a priest and a king.
Amen.

Fran

I don’t mind you answering after all this is a public thread. Jesus said He did not come to abolish this would mean the priesthood as well. We have the sacrifice of the mass which Jesus instituted. I find it hard to mistake Jesus intent of not continuing to do as He did since He states “Do this in memory of me?” Hebrews states Jesus as being the High Priest according to the priesthood of Melchisedech. What it doesn’t infer that the priesthood ended with Jesus.