What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

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When a doctrine changes a little, we say that the doctrine has remained the same but our understanding of it has changed. Now if someone could explain that to me…
IOW, if we accept a change in a doctrine, doesn’t that mean it has changed??

I do find this concept really strange!

Fran
I think it is confusing to a lot of people, especially since so many doctrines were invented during and since the Reformation. There is a common modern notion that doctrines can be changed, which is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.

The CC teaches that the Church is the custodian of the public revelation by God of Himself, which was fulfilled in Christ. Public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. Doctrine is the Teaching of Jesus through the Apostles and is part of the Divine Deposit of Faith. There is no ongoing public revelation (only private, to which the faithful are not held).

So doctrine cannot change, because it is part of the once for all Deposit. Teachings have been clarified and proclaimed since that time, and these are called Dogmas. Dogmas are based on doctrine (Teachings of Jesus) but are not explicit in the Scripture or the Sacred Tradition.

Doctrine can be “developed” in that the Magesterium applies the infallible and unchanging teachings of Christ to the present day problems and issues.

The Magesterium can implement changes in the way doctrine is practiced, understood, and taught, but cannot change the doctrine itself.
 
Hi rc,

Have to disagree. The whatever is conditional , as when they speak explicitly from Moses seat, as when they speak according to what is written , without anything added, detracted or “impurely” interpolated. Another words, obey what Moses wrote or would have spoken. I find that a restricted yet plentiful enough “whatever”.

Blessings
Here is the passage:
Matthew 23:1-3 (RSVCE)
Jesus Denounces Scribes and Pharisees

“Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.”

We should agree that Jesus was telling us all that the chosen leaders are not immune to hypocrisy. In fact, the chosen leaders of the first Covenant rejected the heart of the law! This was worse than being a gentile!

Catholics believe that only the Teachings which are approved under the conditions met by the laws of the Magisterial (college of Bishops in communion with the successor of Peter) are infallible and bound as constituting the Apostolic deposit of faith and it’s interpretation on all the faithfull.
 
My dear friends in Christ;

What if anything do you find stange anout the Catholic Church/ Catholic Faith?
Constantine. How did Constantine get to be such a taboo topic among Catholics? :confused:
 
Well maybe it is both . For certainly Paul does not say we will be seated in heavenly places but says *we are *seated in heavenly places, *present *tense.

We do believe in endurance. Just that the same grace in promises that began our journey , is the same grace in promises to grow and maintain in the middle, and to finally endure to the end. We all agree on this.

It is strange to think that your initial salvati"on, grace and promises were totally dependent upon His work and now it is not. But race we must. Only His fire will judge who ran in His strength and love, and who on their own strength to gain more or even keep His love.

Blessings
It is not accurate" to think that your initial salvation, grace and promises were totally dependent upon His work and now it is not."

Our sanctification is also dependent upon His work, and continues to be until the last day.
Code:
May I ask what you consider "superstition and garbage" since you brought it up?
I am very curious about this too.
 
It is not accurate" to think that your initial salvation, grace and promises were totally dependent upon His work and now it is not."

Our sanctification is also dependent upon His work, and continues to be until the last day.
Amen! Salvation begins, continues and is completed by relying on grace. And we know that God’s grace was made complete in Jesus!

Actually, it is a “faith alone” which merely attempts to presume God’s Grace justifies a believer who continues without any works done which rely on trusting in Him (or doing His will) that the Catholic faith rejects. Whether individuals believe that is what they call “faith alone” is irrelevant to what the Church is rejecting. The Church is not against the profession that we are saved by grace outside of doing any work which merited God’s gift of justification first. Only that this is not the end of our justification. We still have an enemy who prowls around like a lion, seeking to devour us. He can devour us in many different ways… even as many ways which keep us from doing the will of the Father!
 
Here is the passage:
Matthew 23:1-3 (RSVCE)
Jesus Denounces Scribes and Pharisees

“Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.”

We should agree that Jesus was telling us all that the chosen leaders are not immune to hypocrisy. In fact, the chosen leaders of the first Covenant rejected the heart of the law! This was worse than being a gentile!

Catholics believe that only the Teachings which are approved under the conditions met by the laws of the Magisterial (college of Bishops in communion with the successor of Peter) are infallible and bound as constituting the Apostolic deposit of faith and it’s interpretation on all the faithfull.
Here is the balancing passage:

“Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the* doctrine* of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” Mat 16:12

Why "beware’’ if you are to obey “whatever”, irregardless ? It is much more than just don’t be a hypocrite. Bad (leavened) doctrine is not binding, hence "beware’’ of what teachings you believe and follow.

Blessings
 
It is not accurate" to think that your initial salvation, grace and promises were totally dependent upon His work and now it is not."

Our sanctification is also dependent upon His work, and continues to be until the last day.
Correct. That is why I posted that would be “strange”, to think otherwise .

Blessings
 
ORAR … I don’t usually ask this, but are you serious?
Hi Pete,

Kind of. It is a kind of tongue in cheek way of juxtaposing the understanding and repulsion to OSAS logic that Catholics (and others) may have, yet do not see similar logic behind their proclaimed church infallibility (on faith/doctrine and morals).

Blessings
 
The only thing I find strange is how the one Advent candle is pink and not purple. I’m not sure what it symbolizes. Can anyone inform me?

Other than that, the Catholic faith excites me and makes perfect sense to me.
 
Here is the balancing passage:

“Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the* doctrine* of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.” Mat 16:12

Why "beware’’ if you are to obey “whatever”, irregardless ? It is much more than just don’t be a hypocrite. Bad (leavened) doctrine is not binding, hence "beware’’ of what teachings you believe and follow.

Blessings
Very good point. And I certainly don’t wish to dodge this. I don’t believe there is a perfect analogy for the Teaching of the Old Covenant and the Teaching of the New Covenant. The Old did not gave the gift of the Holy Spirit within the people. Now we know Him, and can be Taught by Him. But we do this as one body and with the same judgement.

We “can” know Him and His Teachings when we are led by His Spirit. Consider what the High Priest said at the council…

John 11
So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the council, and said, “What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. If we let him go on thus, every one will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation.” But one of them, Ca′iaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all; you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish.”He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad. So from that day on they took counsel how to put him to death.
Now, if you listen to the words of the High Priest, they are true!!! Yet they are spoken by a man who has set himself on the opposition side of God. Jesus was warning of Teachings by these men, who have set their hearts against mercy, faithfullness, and justice. This is why Jesus warns…

Matthew 23
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others.*You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

Notice He says “… these you ought have done, without neglecting the others.”. It is their hearts which were set against mercy and justice and faith!

But the New Covenant brings this to the believer and converted. What I hope you understand about the Catholic faith, is this; it is not dependent on the righteousness of the persons in the Magisterium for us to hear the Truth of God in their Teaching. The Holy Spirit Himself will illuminate our minds.

Two men can be agreeing to a Teaching, yet one is known by the Lord and the other a devil. My purpose here is not to win people over to Pope Francis, but to honor their local parish priest, even for being a fellow servant subject to the government which is on the shoulders of Christ.

The Pharisees and high Priests during Jesus were Teaching nothing evil. They were simply following the evil they were blind to, so their Teaching needed much warning. From their perspective Jesus should die, for example. From Peter’s perspective, he wanted to fight to keep Jesus from dying. But none could prevent the fact that He fashioned His death as inevitable.
 
Originally Posted by guanophore View Post
It is not accurate" to think that your initial salvation, grace and promises were totally dependent upon His work and now it is not."
Our sanctification is also dependent upon His work, and continues to be until the last day.
Well, Guanophore, looks like we’re in agreement on the meaning of justification and sanctification.
 
The only thing I find strange is how the one Advent candle is pink and not purple. I’m not sure what it symbolizes. Can anyone inform me?

Other than that, the Catholic faith excites me and makes perfect sense to me.
This is from my catechism notes:

The Christmas Wreath

Round
: Symbolizing eternity - God has no beginning and no end
The continuity of life
The immorality of the soul
Eternal life in Christ

Candles: Signify the baby we await
The King who overcomes the darkness with His Light

1st Purple Candle: Candle of the Prophets
The candle of HOPE
Many centuries before the birth of Jesus, wise men had prophesied His birth (prophets).

2nd Purple Candle: Candle of Bethlehem
The candle of SALVATION
From the tiny town of Bethlehen our Savior will be born. The Shepherd of His people.

3rd Pink Candle: Candle of the Shepherds
The candle of JOY
The shepherds saw Jesus first. Humble. The candle represents their joy and invites us to join in the great joy of knowing Jesus.
(the priest used to say that after all the “seriousness” of the first two candles, this one was a nice break).

**4th Purple Candle: ** Candle of the Angels
The candle of HONOR
Symbolizing the good news which is brought by the angels to all men in that marvelous night.

Every week I had the kids light a candle in the wreath and we discussed what it meant.

Well, it might be more than you asked for, but there it is.

Fran
 
Purgatory.
Indulgences.
Assumption of Mary.
Praying to not-God.
Mandatory celibacy of priests/pastors.
Adding to the sole Word of God.
 
Purgatory.
Indulgences.
Assumption of Mary.
Praying to not-God.
Mandatory celibacy of priests/pastors.
Adding to the sole Word of God.
Thank you Zoe! These topics are frequent ones here at CAF (meaning a lot of people may find them strange).

Just briefly, celibacy cannot be “mandated” to anyone. It is a gift of God that Jesus and Paul encourage, but only those to whom it is given can receive it. Priests enter a long discernment process to discover if they have been given this gift.

The Eastern Catholics ordain priests who are married, but the Western (Latin) Rite prefers to choose from among those called to celibacy to serve for priests, so their interests are not divided.

I am not sure what you mean by “adding to the sole word of God”.
 
=frangiuliano115;13483030]Hey Peter J
I’d like you to meet a couple of my church friends. When I say “church friends” it means woman that teach catechism and belong to different groups and are very involved in the church. One has a catholic book store (runs it, I should say). This particular one is threatening to leave the church!
You know how the Pope keeps saying things that need to be fixed? Well, many wonder - was he saying what he meant the first time, or the second and corrected time?
What about his call to the woman in Brazil whom he allowed to receive communion after being remarried?
How about the Lutheran woman in an area of Rome to whom he gave permission to receive communion with her catholic husband when they go to Mass together? Well, he left it up to her conscience, but you don’t have to be a theologian to understand his meaning.
IOW, he’s challenging our ideas.
To ME, he’s not a challenge, but to many he is - in that sense.
If I may interject a note of Orthodoxy here:rolleyes:

Hebrews 6:1-7

Address apostate Catholics is a precise and frightening way. You would do this souls a good deed by asking her to rad it.

We are to judge their FRUITS; not so much their words;)

God Bless you,

Patrick.
 
Constantine. How did Constantine get to be such a taboo topic among Catholics? :confused:
Protestants have used Constantine to level an inexorable amount of calumny and detraction against the Catholic Church. Some of them even say that he was the one who founded the Catholic Church. :bigyikes:
 
What is truly confounding is that a Catholic will believe certain things in a very literal way, but not believe he already has eternal life.:confused:
REPLYING TO MY POST #373

Actually you have the right idea but have inverted what is thee [God’s actual] truth.

Many if not most protestants Do Not believe the following which are all clearly expressed as God’s desire in the Bible:

Just One Church: Mt. 18:18-19

The Primacy of Peter: Mt 16: 18-19; Jn 21: 15-17

One and only one true set of faith beliefs Mt 28:18-20 & Jn 17: 16-20

The Real Presence in Catholic Holy Communion M
Mt. 26:26-28
Mk 14: 22-24
Lk 22: 17-20
Jn 6: 47-57
Paul 1st. Cor. 11:23-30

Forgiveness of sin GOD"S WAY 1 Jn 1:5-6; 1 Jn 5: 16-17 & Jn 20:19-23

So my friend I have provided evidence of the Catholic position; PLEASE do us the favor of providing the evidence of YOUR POSITION 🙂

God Bless you,

Patrick [the OP]
 
=benhur;13485601]Hi rc,
Have to disagree. The whatever is conditional , as when they speak explicitly from Moses seat, as when they speak according to what is written , without anything added, detracted or “impurely” interpolated. Another words, obey what Moses wrote or would have spoken. I find that a restricted yet plentiful enough “whatever”.
Blessings
Permit me to clarify

If you’re intimating here Papal IN fallibility; it is very conditional.

The Pope has to be speaking from the “extraordinary magisterium” [not every day preaching and teaching] and then declare on matters** of faith belief and or Morals ONLY**. Then the Pontiff has to express that this NEW Teaching is intended to bind all. “All” meaning all of humanity. And also has to articulate that he is doing this from the authority of Peter which he has inherited.👍

God Bless you,

Patrick
 
=Michael68;13486102]What is confounding is Protestants don’t know what “endure to the end” means. They seem to think they are at the end already. If you are still breathing, then your race, as St. Paul suggested, is still going
Correct and VERY incorrect for our Christian believing Brethern:eek:

They are SOLD on this idea because it is appealing and easy. ALL that is required [if I have a full and correct understanding of the theology] is a professed “I believe and accept Jesus as My LORD and Savior” and that salvation is a done deal.

They overlook or ignore what the entirety of the bible teaches:

That Christ gave ALL of the keys [along with the Fullness of Christ True Faith] to Peter and through Him, to today’s Catholic Church Mt 16: 18-19 & Mt 28:16-20

They overlook the sin teachings and the need for sacrifices

1 Jn 1: 5-6
1 Jn 5:16-17
Jn 20:19-23

**John.20 Verses 20 to 23"**On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."

Take up your Cross and then “FOLLOW [what I did] me”

Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.**Mark.8: 34 **And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ **Matt.19: 17 **“And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

They risk their eternity on man’s recent innovative theories [16th century on]. And thereby reject God and what God himself traches:blush:

God Bless you,
Patrick [OP]
 
=Jafar;13486497]For me catholic is best, I was born a Muslim , Left Islam for Christianity Presbyterian
studied theology to become pastor, Left the church , practiced Buddhism, in some extent got in involved with some cults too . Became atheist for a long time , Eventually my soul settled down as a catholic and I love it but the catholic church is full of superstition and garbage and disappointing things too
So I will stay catholic but will be careful with all those garbage …🙂
Welcome home my friend!👍

Could you share with me {i’m the OP] just what you mean by “garbage”?

God Bless you,

Patrick
 
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