What dear friend, do you find strange about Catholicism?

[PJM]

Originally Posted by eazyduzit I understand that your claim that only the apostles have the special power to forgive sin

REPLY
This reference is to the Apostles. In any case, the Apostles understood that they had been appointed to an “office” and that they were to pass this authority to others. This is why Matthias was chosen, the first successor to an Apostle. The priestly authority to forgive sins was passed through ordination.

Note that the gospel says “authority given to men” plural. The context would seem to call for a singular (to “a man” - Christ) unless Jesus meant to share this authority with His chosen.

“the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God “had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8)?QUOTE].

Originally Posted by eazyduzit View Post
I have tried to build a logical explanation of what I believe for you. Does this seem Antichrist?

REPLY
Not at all Jerry. YOu seem quite passionate and committed to your relationship with Christ. You are resisting the authority that He put in

REPLY

=guanophore;13492580]
While there may have been as many as 120 in the upper room at Pentecost, Early in the morning on the first day of the week, the disciples were locked in the upper room for fear of the Jews. John 20:15

This reference is to the Apostles. In any case, the Apostles understood that they had been appointed to an “office” and that they were to pass this authority to others. This is why Matthias was chosen, the first successor to an Apostle. The priestly authority to forgive sins was passed through ordination.

Note that the gospel says “authority given to men” plural. The context would seem to call for a singular (to “a man” - Christ) unless Jesus meant to share this authority with His chosen.

“the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Matt. 9:6), which is why the Gospel writer himself explains that God “had given such authority to men” (Matt. 9:8).

This comment is a mystery to me. Jesus authorized all the Apostles to forgive sins. Why would He single out Peter? The second part is even more of a mystery. What does any of this have to do with Rome?

Not at all Jerry. You seem quite passionate and committed to your relationship with Christ. You are resisting the authority that He put in place over His flock.

Additional comments by PJM

Originally Posted by eazyduzit I understand that your claim that only the apostles have the special power to forgive sin

The issue then seems to be is there biblical evidence for Succession [Popes, Bishops & Priest?]

Mt. 10: 1-8 has Jesus doing 2 things:

1 Transferring some Godly Powers and authority to His Apostles, now empowered to heal all illness, cast out devils and even raise the dead who are listed by name; PETER in noted as being THEE first

1. Christ commands the 12 "These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, “**Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, [6] but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
   **

Now look at Mt. 28: 18-20

[18] And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [19] Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [20]** teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you**; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.

Vs. 18 has Jesus again transferring [in a limited manner] HIS own Power & Authority

Vs. 19 is the “game changer:” Cf. YOU GO! to the ENTIRE world and teach them ALL that I have taught and commanded YOU."

At which point Jesus Ascended back “to the Father”

Summary:

Peter is significant in that Christ “promotes” him to the position of Christ “Prime-minister”; holder of ALL of the Key’s to heavens single gate. Mt 16; 18-19; and therefore the official Leader of the Apostles and Christ Church; singular.

Jn.17:18 & 20:21

Cf. Jesus proclaims: “I AM sending YOU as My Father also sent Me”. Which the necessary powers and authority of Governance and succession. Succession make absolute necessary by that NEW command: to the Entire world"; which can only be fulfilled through Succession.

The significance of Rome lies in the fact that both Peter and Paul were martyred in Rome which because of that fact; became the “SEE of Peter”

You are correct is noting that the Power to forgive sins Jn.20:19-23 rest with the Church and those appointed to governance through her; and through her necessary HEAD. For a Body without a HEAD is useless

The act of GOD always choosing one man to lead ind intercede begins with:
Noe, Abram, the Judges, Kings like David and Prophets like Isaiah. So what Christ did in appointing Peter to a more exulted [now under Grace] position; was only following Sacred Tradition.

God Bkess you,

Patrick

.

 

[frangiuliano115]

Fran, if by implication you’re implying that:

1. Christ did it all [say “I believe” or some such words, and then I’m heaven bound?
2. That Sacramental Confession is not in an absolute sense necessary for the forgiveness of Mortal sin?

Then your beliefs DO NOT align with the Doctrinal Teachings of the RCC:shrug:

**1John.1 Verses 8 to 10

: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
**
1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 **"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

John.20 Verses 20 to 23 “When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this,** he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”
**

God Bless you,
Patrick

You’re answering to:

=frangiuliano115;13490253]This is what I mean PJM –

eazyduzit is saying in his below post, exactly what we also believe!
Jesus was the last sacrifice. No more are necessary.
So what are we talking about here???
See?

Fran

PJM,

What animals have YOU sacrificed lately??

 

[PJM]

=frangiuliano115;13493053]When we speak of the eucharist, giving thanks, we also speak of the sacrifice for which we are thankful. Even in that link I posted for Augustine, the writer writes about both the Eucharist and the Sacrifice.

I was asking Eazyduzit if protestants do this or if they totally separate the two. You would also know this and I’d like to know the answer.

Jesus instituted the Eucharist, what was called Communion, at the Passover evening.
THEN he went to the cross the next morning. Two separate occurrences. These days we want to call the Mass the Eucharistic Celebration. Of course He said Do This In Memory Of Me, so what was the memory? The Cross. The “mixing up” is not meant to be accusatory.

Just wondering how protestants see this.

Fran

From the Catholic Catechism:

The sacrificial memorial of Christ and of his Body, the Church

1362 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the making present and the sacramental offering of his unique sacrifice, in the liturgy of the Church which is his Body. In all the Eucharistic Prayers we find after the words of institution a prayer called the anamnesis or memorial.

**1363 **In the sense of Sacred Scripture the memorial is not merely the recollection of past events but the proclamation of the mighty works wrought by God for men. ***In the liturgical celebration of these events, they become in a certain way present and real. ***This is how Israel understands its liberation from Egypt: every time Passover is celebrated, the Exodus events are made present to the memory of believers so that they may conform their lives to them.

1364 In the New Testament, the memorial takes on new meaning. When the Church celebrates the Eucharist, ***she commemorates Christ’s Passover, and it is made present the sacrifice Christ offered once for all on the cross remains ever present.“As often as the sacrifice of the Cross by which ‘Christ our Pasch has been sacrificed’ ***is celebrated on the altar, the work of our redemption is carried out.”

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ’s Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: “This is my body which is given for you” and “This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood.”** In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he “poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”**

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice*** because it re-presents*** (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:

[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper “on the night when he was betrayed,” [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.

This friends is where the Protestant misunderstanding lies.

Firstly: It the Glorified risen Body; Blood, Soul and Divinity; NOT our Lords corporal-body. This is a sublime Mystery and a Profound Miracle

Secondly: It is the very same; the Original Good Friday sacrifice of Christ Crucifixion that is made present time and time again. Even Jesus, in his humanity; in his human nature can only die one time. So the critical word to remember is: re-presents . NOT represents; no; “RE-presents.” This then is the “sum and the summit” of Catholic-Faith Beliefs.

1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory

PROPITIATION. It is also one of the four ends of the Sacrifice of the Mass, whose propitiatory power extends to sin, to satisfaction and punishment for the living, and to punishment for the dead. (Etym. Latin propitiare, to render favorable.) Fr. Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary.

 

[benhur]

Yes, public confession was replaced with private rather quickly.

From my understanding the private confessional evolved around 1200A.D.

How do you think the Apostles could forgive sins unless they were confessed?

Good question. Certainy 3000 souls had their sins forgiven in obedience in baptism after Peter’s first sermon

.And why would James encourage individual confession?

Confession of what ? Faults has different meaning than “sins” . Nothing about forgiveness in the text, but healing, yes. And the confession was to each other.

“Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” James 5:16

I think the context around this verse makes it clear that the factions were destructive to the community. It was not about rich and poor, either.

Disagree. The destructive part was the uncharitableness. Differences we may have, but when we use them against each other is destructive to ourselves and the Body.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Blessings

 

[Peter_J]

Blessings

Why thank you.

Btw, I don’t recall when public confession was replaced by private confession, but I do know that the former practice was revived, e.g. by the Shakers a few centuries ago.

 

[guanophore]

From my understanding the private confessional evolved around 1200A.D.

I imagine the faithful began to have concern after what happened to Annanias and Sapphira.

THE SECOND CENTURY.—Among the Fathers and ecclesiastical writers of the second century St. Irenaeus of Lyons (130–202) and Tertullian of Carthage (b. 160) can be cited in support of auricular confession.

"Irenaeus, in relating the story of the women seduced by Marcus the Gnostic, seems to distinguish between public and secret (or auricular) confession. “Some of them,” he says, “perform their exomologesis openly, while others, afraid to do this, draw back in silence.” The crucial passage reads as follows: Αἱ μὲν καὶ εἰς φανερὸν ἐξομολογοῡνται (quaedam quidem etiam in manifesto exomologesin faciunt). This “etiam in manifesto” suggests that they had first confessed in private. If this interpretation is correct, the incident may be briefly described as follows: The guilty women first confessed their sins privately; but as the crime had been notorious, the confessor obliged them to make a public confession, which was to serve at the same time as a penance and a reparation of the scandal given. This some of the women did, while others could not be prevailed upon to make a public confession.

Tertullian emphasizes the necessity of doing penance for sinful thoughts as well as deeds. He condemns the false shame which prevents many from making a public confession of their sins and thus causes them to be lost. “Is it better to hide and be damned,” he asks, “than to be openly absolved?”

The few Patristic fragments that have come down from the first century do not permit us to say for certain whether the confession of which the early Fathers speak was merely an outpouring of the heart before God or a declaration made to a priest. Clement of Rome exhorts the rebellious Corinthians: “Let us then pray, that for our transgressions, and for what we have done, … forgiveness may be granted to us.… For it is better for man to confess his transgressions than to harden his heart.” As the later must have been a continuation of the earlier practice, and as St. Clement in the same epistle admonishes the Corinthians to “submit to the presbyters,”32 it is fair to conclude that confession was made to the priests.

A similar interpretation may be put upon a passage in the Didaché (about A. D. 96), which reads: “In the church [hence not before God alone] thou shalt confess thy transgressions (ἐξομολογήσῃ), and thou shalt not betake thyself to prayer with an evil conscience.” This text does not, however, prove the sacramental character of confession, because it is silent regarding absolution." ( PART III THE THREE ACTS OF THE PENITENT: CONTRITION, CONFESSION, AND SATISFACTION CHAPTER I THE RT. REV. MSGR. JOSEPH POHLE, PH.D., D.D.)

Good question. Certainy 3000 souls had their sins forgiven in obedience in baptism after Peter’s first sermonConfession of what ? Faults has different meaning than “sins” . Nothing about forgiveness in the text, but healing, yes. And the confession was to each other.

Confession is the ultimate spiritual healing, and God is much more interested in the healing of our souls that He is our bodies. The passage instructs to “call for the elders” (priests) to pray for the sick. Confession is part of the healing rite.

How does “fault” have a different meaning than sin? Sin is to 'miss the mark". This is what a fault is.

I am not sure what version you are using, but the Gk. word is…

ἁμαρτάνω, ἁμάρτημα, ἁμαρτία = to miss the mark.

"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

The person in a state of grace is the righteous mann. A person who has confessed their sins and received absolution is in a state of grace.

 

[blanchardman]

The relic thing. Venerating pieces of dead saints. Very, very strange.

WillyAl: Looks like the pantheon of lesser gods and lucky charms is off limits.

 

[guanophore]

The relic thing. Venerating pieces of dead saints. Very, very strange.

21*And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet. 2 Kings 13:21

11And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. Acts 19:11–13

Extraordinarily strange!

 

[TonyBS]

21*And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet. 2 Kings 13:21

11And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. Acts 19:11–13 Extraordinarily strange!

This is something I do find Strange, the insatiable appetite for the miraculous, when the greatest Miracle is man subduing self and submitting to Knowing and Loving God and that knowledge resulting in selfless service.

Though these Miracles are good for the people that witness them, I fail to see how they can Support our Love for Jesus the Christ to anyone outside His faith and to those that did not witness the event.

If they are proof, then one must accept all these events that happen in all religions…

One must remember that Christ’s Purpose was to make us see that we need to be Born Again in to the Spirit, for this He died for us.

Also what is the use of being Dead then Alive if you are to die again without the Love of Christ?

As regards to the passage you posted, these are as good - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazarus_syndrome

“Daphne Banks overdosed on drugs in Huntingdon, England on 31 December 1996. She was declared dead at Hinchingbrooke Hospital early the next day. She was found snoring at a mortuary 34 hours later”.

Anthony Yahle, 37, in Bellbrook, Ohio, USA, was breathing abnormally at 4 a.m. on 5 August 2013, and could not be woken. He was given CPR, and first responders shocked him several times and found a heartbeat. That afternoon, he coded for 45 minutes at Kettering Medical Center and was pronounced dead. When his son arrived at the hospital, he noticed a heartbeat on the monitor that was still attached. Resuscitation efforts resumed, and the patient was revived.

These show that with any miracle, it is also most likely it can also Have a Scientific Explanation. As science and religion are two paths given by God for man to pursue the meaning of the One Truth, then in the end that can not contradict each other.

The day when science starts to study the healing effects of a virtue driven life and how it changes elements to also be a positive force to heal, mankind will have forgotten about war and put their resources to good use. Yes the very Ground around prophets and Heroes of Faith has healing capacities…Why? …I dare to say First we have to become unified as one People on One Planet under One God before we will venture to find out why it is so.

God Bless all and regards Tony

 

[PJM]

=eazyduzit;13492491]What am I not understanding? In quoting Mt 12:30 do you imply that I am against Christ, or anti-Christ, because I don’t agree with you?
I would not say that you are anti-Christ if you don’t agree with me. I do not question your love for Christ
Jesus also said, " for he that is not against us is for us" Lk 9:50.

I understand that your claim that only the apostles have the special power to forgive sin.However if you look at the beginning verse of the passage it is the disciples who are gathered behind locked doors. This includes more than the 12. We know from other mentions that it is around 70. It is not known exactly how many are present, but Jesus spoketo them all. Now look at v. 23. Note that it only part of the sentence, which begins in v.22 with “Receive ye the Holy Ghost:” thus making the promise in v. 23 dependant on receiving the HS. Now the purpose of the Spirit is not to convey special powers but to give us wisdom and discernment. and we all receive the Spirit. So then, with the Spirit, disciples are able to discern who has brought forth fruits worthy of repentance and who has not, if there be any question. Note that Peter is not singled out in any way. There is no special power given to Rome.

I have tried to build a logical explanation of what I believe for you. Does this seem Antichrist?

Shalom

Jerry

Hi Jerry,

We’re getting a bit too personal here

My post are seldom personal. I try to concentrate on religious issues and differences. SORRY if I offended you in any way.
And no, I don’t believe you you and Christ are not friendly. Rather I do believe that the “set of faith- beliefs” YOU choose to accept; are NOT the very ones Christ did teach and select and empower Peter and his successors to pass on in his name. Mt. 28:16-20

As to THEE 12 Apostles:
May I direct your attention to the following:
Mt, 10: 1-8
Mt. 16:15-19
Jn.17: 16-20
Jn. 20:19-23
Mk 16; 14-15
Mt 28:16-20
Jn 20:19-23
Mt 26:26-28
Mk 14: 22-24
Lk 22: 17-20
John 6: 47-57
Paul 1st Cor. 11: 23-30

Each and everyone of these is Jesus addressing in some manner His Chosen Apostles directly and exclusively. Sorry if that upsets you; but that is WHAT the Bible teaches.

The Bible my friend is a Catholic book:thumbsup: WE choose the OT books to be included. WE authored the entire New Testament [about 1,500 years BEFORE Wycliffe, Luther and Calvin BTW]

Jn 21: 13-17
"Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and so with the fish. This was now the third time that Jesus was revealed to the disciples [Apostles:see Mt 10:1-5] after he was raised from the dead. When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.”** He said to him**, “Feed my lambs.” [16] A second time he said to him,** “Simon, son of John, do you love me?”** He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.”** He said to him, "Tend my sheep." [17] He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, **“Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, **"Feed my sheep. **

As a FYI, I have a document that shows 50 Peter FIRST from the bible if you’d care to see it please send me a PM

As to the Holy Spirit. Permit me to make two non-personal points.

[1]These promises are directed precisely to the Apostles:

John 14:26
But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

John 15:26
But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.

John 17: 11-12 &16-20
"And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou has given me; that they may be one, as we also are. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled"

They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. Sanctify them in truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19]** And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth**. [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

[2] One ought to at least question this [the Holy Spirits guidance] as regards Protestantism [collectively NOT individually] because of the now thousands of differing sets of faith beliefs, denominations, sects and communions. Truth my friend can be only what it is: SINGULAR per defined issues. And Faith belief issues were for the MOST part defined a thousand or more years before the Protestant Reformation.

Thank you so very much for your post!

God Bless you, and friend, pray much about what is shared here.
Patrick

 

[PJM]

I do have difficulty keeping up with these posts. Just saw the above.

Far be it for me to proclaim teachings that are not authorized by the Catholic church. They may be understood in a slightly different way or there might be a differentiation in terms but I know catholic teachings well PJM.

This is where I strongly disagree with you. You say:

This is a CATHOLIC Form: we have amoral responsibility **to actually TEACH what our God [Thee God] **commands US to. Mt. 28:19-20.

To “teach what OUR God, THEE God commands”.

PJM, Do you feel like you OWN God??

We Catholics may understand some doctrine in a different way, or interpret some scripture differently, but we ARE serving the same God. I don’t think there are any JW here who believe that Jesus was only a prophet! In which case I would speak up VERY LOUDLY.

Fran

No, actually he OWN’S ME:thumbsup:

 

[PJM]

=blanchardman;13493229]This could become a long list so I will just post one. Erecting temples and shrines,and praying to, dead MEN.

Thank you so much for your participation. And please feel free to share your other concerns as well Doing so one at a time is a great help

As for the “temples”

Bionically speaking:
Pagans have temples
Jews Synagogue
And Christianity LED by Catholicism have “Churches” Mt 16:18-19

However your point, I think has to do with not “thee Church”; but the manner od their construction.

Friend, may I humbly suggest that you RE-READ Exodus: God commanding Moses exactly how he, Moses is to construct HIS Worship space. Here are a few hints.

Exodus 37:16
And the vessels for the divers uses of the table, dishes, bowls, and cups, and censers of pure gold, wherein the libations are to be offered.

Exodus 25:11
And thou shalt overlay it with the purest gold within and without: and over it thou shalt make a golden crown round about:

Exodus 25:24
And thou shalt overlay it with the purest gold: and thou shalt make to it a golden ledge round about.

1 Kings 6:20
Now the oracle was twenty cubits in length, and twenty cubits in breadth, and twenty cubits in height. And he covered and overlaid it with most pure gold. And the altar also he covered with cedar.

1 Kings 7:49
And the golden candlesticks, five on the right hand, and five on the left, over against the oracle, of pure gold: and the flowers like lilies, and the lamps over them of gold: and golden snuffers,

My friend, God Expects in all things, prayer, sacrifice and his House of Worship to be always the very BEST that we are able to give or produce. God being Perfect; desires perfection as much as is possible; always.

Now as for praying to dean men[and women too]

Your asking about a Catholic Church OPTIONAL & personal form of piety]; NOT mandated. So why then do many [most] bother doing it as we have for eon’s?

**Because it BENEFITS us; and our soul’s well-being.

While it is proper to claim that we pray “TO” Mary and the saints; it is nevertheless FAR more accurate to say that we pray “THROUGH” them! ALL PRAYER ENDS WITH GOD!**

Catholics opt to do this because:

Mary & the Saints who ARE already in God’s Divine Presence are a part of what the Church terms: “The Communion of Saints.” This consist of Us here on earth; all the Souls in Purgatory [which is in the bible BTW’ and are assured of heaven eventually]; AND Mary and the Saints in heaven: So we’re FAMILY!

Mary & the Saints take our prayers
ADD to them their own petitions on top pf them in our behalf
AND then present them to God for us
THUS increasing their efficacy:thumbsup:

We do it because it works. BUT its optional NOT mandated.

God Bless you,
Patrick [the OP]

.

 

[fbl9]

We do it because it works. BUT its optional NOT mandated.

God Bless you,
Patrick [the OP]

.

Prayer to the saints and Blessed Virgin are mandated but private devotion is optional.
We just can`t skip the lines in the penititional (sic) rite.

 

[benhur]

Among the Fathers and ecclesiastical writers of the second century St. Irenaeus of Lyons (130–202) and Tertullian of Carthage (b. 160) can be cited in support of auricular confession.

“With one and two individuals, there is the Church; and the Church indeed, is Christ. Therefore, when you cast yourselves at the knees of the brethren,” Tertullian

Tertullian is explicit in bowing before the Lord, the presbyters and the assembly( in repentance,brokenness over sin). He then says where two are gathered , there is the church for this confession. He says nothing about absolution from a priest , or even a private confession. Nothing…regulafide.blogspot.com/2008/06/tertullian-and-nature-of-confession.html

I could not find Iraneus supporting private confession either. The only quote I found is this , " At last, when, with no small difficulty, the brethren had converted her, she spent her whole time in the exercise of public confession,(1) weeping over and lamenting the defilement which she had received from this magician (Marcus)."

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Confession is the ultimate spiritual healing, and God is much more interested in the healing of our souls that He is our bodies. The passage instructs to “call for the elders” (priests) to pray for the sick. Confession is part of the healing rite.

Again,presbyters have their place, but not exclusively. The text goes on to say confess “one to another” .

The person in a state of grace is the righteous man. A person who has confessed their sins and received absolution is in a state of grace.

I think the text stresses the type of prayer, "fervent’’, and presumably from those praying for the sick(elders,brethren, one another). The text does not say the priest alone absolves, if at all. The Lord does that .The priest and “one another” pray for healing (spiritual and physical). Zero exclusivity here.

Blessings

 

[Peter_J]

Hi benhur. Surely you haven’t forgotten “Whose sins you forgive …” ?

 

[guanophore]

This could become a long list so I will just post one. Erecting temples and shrines,and praying to, dead MEN.

Those who are in Christ are alive forevermore! They may pass from this life, but they are eternally present with Him.

Nothing can separate them from the love of God, including death.

29But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God: 32‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?** He is not God of the dead, but of the living.** Matt. 22.

 

[PJM]

=frangiuliano115;13493787]You’re answering to:

=frangiuliano115;13490253]This is what I mean PJM –

eazyduzit is saying in his below post, exactly what we also believe!
Jesus was the last sacrifice. No more are necessary.
So what are we talking about here???
See?

Fran

PJM,

What animals have YOU sacrificed lately??

Fran I’m still not sure what YOU are talking about; I however am talking about OBEDIENCE and humility to what thee Church entrusted with ALL of the keys to heaven Mt 26::18-19.

Here for your possible edification is a site you really need to pull up and read:thumbsup:

Summary of process of salvation in Roman Catholicism

by Matt Slick: carm.org/catholic-salvation-summary

Salvation in Roman Catholicism is a process. To begin, God grants actual grace to a person which enables him to believe in Christ (CCC 2000) and also believe in the truth of the Catholic Church (CCC 1814). After belief, the person must be baptized, which is necessary for salvation (CCC 1257). This baptism erases original sin (CCC 405), unites the person with Christ (CCC 977), infuses grace into the person (CCC 1999), and grants justification (CCC 1992, 2020). After baptism, he is saved. But, to maintain his salvation, it is necessary for him to perform good works (CCC 2010, 2068, 2080) and participate in the sacraments (CCC 1129) which provide grace that is “proper to each sacrament” (CCC 1129, 2003). This is necessary in order to maintain infused grace (CCC 987, 1468). However, grace can be lessened by venial sins or completely lost by mortal sins. Venial sins (CCC 1862) remove part of the infused grace but not the saving grace known as sanctifying grace (CCC 1863). To remedy the problem of venial sins, the Catholic is to take the Eucharist which the Church teaches forgives venial sins (CCC 1416). He must also perform various penance which must be done in concert with perfect contrition (CCC 1452). But there is a problem. Sins require punishment. Even though sins are absolved by a priest (CCC 1463, 1495), the punishment due to a person because of his sin can remain. To deal with that remaining punishment, indulgences are administered to deal with the punishment due to the guilt of the sins already forgiven (CCC 1471, 1498). These indulgences draw upon the “good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary” (CCC 1477) and “of Christ and the saints” so as to obtain “the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins” (CCC 1478). Furthermore, the indulgences can be applied to themselves or the dead (CCC 1471) who are in purgatory (CCC 1498). Now, in case the Catholic has committed a mortal sin, then all his infused grace is lost. To regain this grace, he must partake of special penance (CCC 980) since it helps restore grace that was lost (CCC 1468, 1496). To conclude, the Roman Catholic must have faith, participate in the sacraments, take the Eucharist, keep the commandments, perform penance, and do indulgences in order to attain, maintain, and regain his salvation as well as reduce the punishment due to him for the sins of which he has already forgiven." End Quote

The article is much longer and more detailed.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

=WillyAL;13493706]The relic thing. Venerating pieces of dead saints. Very, very strange.

I suppose one can hold such a view legitimately.

However it reflects I think a lack of full understanding **of we Catholics and our Communion Of the Saints entails and manifest. **

This “communion” is very much like a family; Some HERE, some Traveling; And some who have already Arrived their final destination.

1. All those on Earth who are a part of the “THE Church”
2. All those in Purgatory [in route to heaven]
3. All those who have fulfilled the reason for their existence [Isaiah 43: 7 &21] and have attained Life Immortal with God in Heaven

All three groups are intended by God to end up eventually in the same place; that place created for us and desired for us by our God.

**1st. Timothy 2: 1-5 **
"I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, ***Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. ***[5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

That one place being heaven

Relics, are termed “sacramentals”; a terms for sacred items that hold the possibility of bringing Souls closer to Christ. With such a goal; they are therefore very good.

They share close relationship to Intercessory Prayers. Which too hold the possibility of bringing Souls closer to Christ.

Relics; Intercessory Prayers and Sacramentals permit this Family of God’s choosing to aid each other. Each of these categories are in a broad sense; “Church Practices”; which are changeable; BUT quite unlikely to be changed because they Do exactly what they are intended to do; they aid the Spiritual growth of our Souls.

The Saints [those in the third group] take a special interest; and assume responsibility to pray for The Church that has selected them as a Patron. Because God hears ALL prayers; we know that they are effective…

These relics are treated with great respect because of the exceptional life’s that their bodies modeled for us to emulate.

Relics are as a Tradition encased within the Main Altar of most churches. Also relics are used for veneration and blessings at times. These acts then unite us with the Saints who have preceded us; and complete the cycle by praying THROUGH them, for ourselves and the Souls in Purgatory.

Thanks for asking,

Patrick