What did Paul mean to be Justified by Faith?

[Lazerlike42]

Amen. So say this to our Roman Catholic friends As the real Christian faith is obedient in itself, and as it is not just a belief, then we don’t need to say that Salvation is by faith AND obedience. We can just say that Salvation is by Faith.

Sortof.

You’re right that faith is obedient, but not just “real” faith, ANY faith. This was all written and spoken between 30 and 70 AD. The concept of faith then REQUIRED obedience and loyalty. It is known as the Semitic Totality Concept. If a person did not obey, faith was NOT present. There was no “real” faith and “fake” faith. There were those with faith and those who did not.

If you want to get picky you can. We can say that anyone who claims to have faith but is not obedient has a “fake” faith, but in reality the fact is they have no faith at all.

We must have faith and works. Only the faith part gets us to Heaven, but we muts have works to get there. Works are in a sense like an ID.

If a man goes to a club, his money (faith) is what gets him in. It’s the only thing that has anything to do with getting him in. His ID (works) aren’t gonna get him in, and neither is anything else. ONLY his money (faith) will get the bouncer to let him in. However, if he has no ID (works), the bouncer isn’t gonna accept his money (faith).

It is a matter of faith AND works, not just obedient faith. The important thing to remember is that the faith has an active role in getting us into heaven, whereas the works can only play an active role in keeping us out (if we don’t have any that is).

 

[Lazerlike42]

THEOPHILUS†:

More simple should be to notice that Paul is talking about the moral law too.

"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” ( Romans 7:7 )

Is coveting just Passover, fasting and festivals?

THEOPHILUS†

Coveting is a sin which will keep us out of Heaven if we aren’t repentant of it. Paul was talking, all through Romans 2-4, about the Mosaic law. The MORAL law is the one Paul tells us we have to uphold, ESPECIALLY in Romans 2.

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

The act of not doing these things is a work in and of itself!

 

[gardenswithkids]

THEOPHILUS†:

To my Roman Catholic and Protestant friends I would like to ask:

Are you sure you understand each other?

I believe much ot this debate is merely about semantics. We differ on a few important points, but I think many Protestants misunderstand the Catholic teachings about works. So to clarify what I believe about my salvatation as a Catholic: I am saved by the grace of God. I can do nothing to save myself. The works of Jesus Christ is the source of my salvation. He saves me; I can not save myself.
Now is the part where some Protestants may disagree. I believe that I can refuse to accept (i.e. loose) the grace of salvation from God. One way is by refusing to believe in Him (i.e. lack of faith). Another way is by refusing to do what He asks me to do (i.e. lack of the work He has prepared for me ) Faith and works (not works of Jewish Law but of Christian service), are two different sides of the same coin–they go together and we misunderstand St. Paul’s meaning when we try to separate them.

All the work that I do, I can only accomplish through the grace of God. I can literally not lift a finger unless God gives me the grace to do it. (And I’ve seen people who are paralyzed to prove this point.) God gives everyone gifts and abilities for the sake of making us righteous and building up the kingdom. If we refuse to use them as He desires, we risk our salvation. Again, this doesn’t mean that I can work my way into heaven.
THEOPHILUS†:

For instance, does everyone understand what Salvation by faith alone means?

I’ll telll you, when you add the word “alone” to the writings of St. Paul, you throw me off. I see a few Protestants who seem to believe they can do whatever they want with no regard for Jesus’ words in the Gospel, which looks to me as though they are rejecting Christ. Some claim that they’ve accepted Jesus in their hearts at 13 and then years later after multiple divorces and a life of sin they still cling to the idea that they are saved. Your explaination of “faith alone” sounds a lot closer to the Catholic position than many of the real life Protestant examples I’ve witnessed. But I still cringe when you add the word “alone” because St. Paul didn’t use it.
THEOPHILUS†:

I guess Roman Catholics and many protestants think we mean we don’t have to do good works. But this is not true. Sanctification is not optional for those who are justified by faith. As I said, we are saved from unrighteousness to righteousness. But no one can be righteous in the sight of God by his personal righteousness. We all need the righteousness of God which is to those who believe.

Yes, you are saying “faith” but you include “works.” Again, we both are looking at the very same coin from different sides. We agree more than some may think.
THEOPHILUS†:

When you come to God, you need to understand and accept that you are POOR in spirit, that you don’t have any personal righteousness. Not having any personal righteousness means you can’t add any good work to your faith in order to be righteous ( justified ).

I’m not trying to add, I’m merely trying to do what He expects from me so that God can make me righteous as you described earlier. Again, I think we agree with each other more than we want to admit. If we focussed more on grace, the faith/works debate would probably fade away.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKirkLVNV
No Catholic would disagree with your last two sentences.

But certainly everything I wrote prior to them, right? Quote:
Indeed, I think that the notion that we could add anything to what Jesus did for us on the Cross was anathematized by the Council of Trent.
Except works **Works isn’t an add-on, works are indicative of a living faith that is able to save because it works, it operates, it responds, it obeys, it moves, it WORKS! Think of it like that if you will, not so much an accounting sheet where we can say, “See, we did this and this and this, so you have to save us.” Think of it as being more “operational,” though operational STILL has to mean obedient.**Quote:
We believe in *Sola Gratia *and *Sola Christe. *We just don’t believe in *Sola Fide *because it runs contrary to the teachings of Christianity,
But not the Bible, the written word of God. The only reason you call it that, or can call it that, or are even able to recognize it as such is because a council of Catholic bishops in communion with the Successor of Peter confirmed and canonized it as such. The Bible rises out of the Church, not the Church out of the Bible. The Church is the custodian and interpretor of Holy Writ and it means what SHE says it means. Quote:
if by *Sola Fide *you mean “fiduciary trust,” ie., “I trust you as my Savior, but I’m going to lead my life the way I bloody well please, but yeah, sure, you can save me”
Such a person has never believed in Christ as his personal Savior. That’s simply a religious “faith.” The same kind of false “faith” James presents in his Epistle and the writer of Hebrews. **That was the point I was making, thank you for restating it.**Quote:
or if by *Sola Fide, *you mean simple belief in Jesus, as Saint James in his epsitle warned us that “the demons believe and tremble.”
Demons do not, nor can not, believe in Jesus. They certainly know who He is but they can not believe IN Him. For the simple reason Christ did not die for demons, but for Adam’s race only. There is no redemption for demons in the shed blood of Christ. They believe “God is one,” but not “in Christ.” **Again, that was the point I was making, as it was Saint James’ point, but thanks for restating it.**Quote:
I think we could bridge the gap between what Protestants believe and what Catholic believe if we could grasp that FAITH is the sum total of one’s life, from initial justification to the final perserverance of the soul that follows Christ.
However, salvation faith is not the sum total of one’s life, but total trust in the life, death and resurrection of Another, Jesus Christ, on his behalf. As I said, nothing can be added to this for our salvation. We cannot offer anything to God beyond this. To place our faith in these things is, however, beyond fiduciary. Faith must operate to save. The idea of “initial justification” is foreign to the Scriptures:

“Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). We cannot undo what God has done once-for-all through Christ. It is God who justifies the one who has faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:26). You’re mistaken even semantically. Initial justification means “first justification.” Unless one believes in the heresy of “once saved, always saved,” one believes that one can fall or fail from initial justification. The Catholic Church teaches, plainly from scripture, that we are saved through Grace, only by the merits of the Passion, Death and Resurection of Jesus Christ, by our faith (which has to be operational, which has to work, to obey), which salvation we are commanded to “work out with fear and trembling,” through "faith working in love."

 

[Lazerlike42]

catholic-convert.com/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/Documents/FaithAloneJudgment.doc

catholic-convert.com/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/Documents/AbrahamFaithAlone.doc

A couple of good articles.

I would especially challenge any of these “Abraham saved by faith alone” folks to check out the second one.

Something else I learned when reading these:

Every single time in the Bible where it refers to judgement, it says we will be judged by our deeds, works, or what we have done, and not once even so much as hints at faith.

Just some examples:

Paul:

We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is based on the truth.
Rom 2:3 Do you really think–anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same–that you will escape God’s judgment?
Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, restraint, and patience, not recognizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But because of your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment is revealed.
Rom 2:6 He will repay each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 eternal life to those who by patiently DOING GOOD seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
Rom 2:8 but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth, but are obeying unrighteousness;
Rom 2:9 affliction and distress for every human being who does evil, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek;
Rom 2:10 but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first to the Jew, and also to the Greek.

Jesus:

Joh 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come out–those who have done good things, to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgment.

John:

Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.
Rev 20:13 Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works.

 

[linus]

Lazerlike42:

1. I do argue that Paul is refering to works of the law, and reading my second treatment will show this to be true. I do not, however, list works of the law under the Old Covenant as requirements for salvation. Rather, I list things, like “do not steal,” “do not kill,” and “do not commit adultery,” which are commandments under the New Covenant and are words of Christ. Read Matthew 19. In verse 16, a desciple asks Jesus “Rabbi, what good must I do to have eternal life?” This is the question that every person on the earth wants answered! Jesus replies by saying that only God is good, which implies that we can do no good (of course with Christ we can and we all agree on this). Because we can do no good, Jesus tells us, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” The desciple asks which, and Jesus says, " Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother; and love your neighbor as yourself." These are commandments under the New Covenant. Jesus gives us an imperitive: “IF you want to enter into eternal life, [THEN] keep the commandments.”

You’re under the false assumption that Jesus was addressing this man under the New Covenant. First of all this man was a Jew, born under the Law, the Mosaic Covenant, and that is how Jesus addressed him. Secondly, the man lied when he said he kept all the commandments, at least self-delusional. THAT’S IMPOSSIBLE. So Jesus ignored his reply and went straight to what his faith was actually in, his riches on this earth. Lazer, if you’re going to take what Jesus said to this man as “commands under the New Covenant” then have you recently sold all your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor (Matt. 19:21)? Thirdly, the New Covenant did not come into effect until the cross. It is the New Covenant IN HIS BLOOD. Do not steal, murder, lie, etc. are restated in the teachings of grace found in the Epistles, but not in commandment form, i.e., thou shalt not…". Believers justified by God through faith in Christ are not to steal, murder and lie because of who they are now in Christ, i.e., their new identity IN HIM, having been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God (see 1 Cor. 6:9-11).

Paul concludes by saying, “All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.” (1 Cor. 6:12). This is how the justified believer is to live out his life in Christ (cf. Rom. 12:1-2; Eph. 4:1; 5:8; 1 Thess. 2:12). .

A fundamental error of Catholics in handling the Scriptures is thinking that everything Jesus said in the Gospel accounts was stated under the New Covenant and applies to Christians today. Lazer, the New Covenant did not come into effect until the cross (1 Cor. 11:25). The teachings of grace, based on the New Covenant in His blood, are found predominately in the Epistles. They explain the soteriological results of the cross not covered in the Gospel accounts.

“And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance” (Heb. 9:15).

 

[Lazerlike42]

It’s interesting that you should mention Hebrews.

Heb 10:26 For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge His people.
Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

If faith is all that matters, then it’s intereting that the writer of the Hebrews is warning us not to sin. In fact, if Paul meant that there were no rules or commandments when he said, “All things are lawful for me,” then the writer of the Hebrews shouldn’t be warning people against sin. If all they need is faith, then by sinning deliberately, nobody would fall into the hands of the living God!

In fact, Paul was writing while already in the New Covenant, and even he tells us:

Rom 2:6-8 “He will repay each one according to his works:
eternal life to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth, but are obeying unrighteousness;”

 

[Kurt_G]

linus:

Well put.

“…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:9).

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:23-24).

Salvation is not a works issue, it is not a sin issue, it is being in the need of righteousness, a righteousness supplied by God on the basis of faith in Christ Jesus. It is this righteousness that was given to Abraham (long before he offered up Isaac) and David (even though he commtted murder and adultery). And it is this divine righteousness that is given to everyone who believes in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

The water’s cooled off a little, so I’m going to jump in for a moment…

1. In Romans:

a. The very first time Paul mentions Faith is in 1:5 "Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith"

b. The very last time Paul mentions Faith is in 16:26 “but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith…”

Paul also wrote:

c. Romans 2:7 “eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works”

d. Romans 2:13 “…those who observe the law will be justified.”

But wait!! Paul also said in Romans 3:20 “since no human being will be justified in his sight by observing the law…”

All of us have to admit that Paul must be talking about 2 different “laws” here, or he is really out to lunch…
Let’s look…

In Romans 2, Paul discusses “the law written in their hearts”, along with adultery, murder, stealing, kindness, forbearance, and patience.

In Romans 3, Paul doesn’t mention those things. Rather, he begins with “…so what is the value of circumcision?”

To me, it looks like he might have said in Romans 2 “those who observe the natural law written in their hearts will be justified.”

One more thing. Has anyone ever considered **why **James would write what he wrote? I suggest the following scenario fits perfectly:

Paul was rightly hammering folks who were insisting you still had to follow all the Jewish laws to follow Jesus Christ. Some took his message too far, and claimed immunity from any responsibility for their actions toward others— that loving charity, etc. toward our neighbors were just “optional” for a Christian.

James is countering this misinterpretation of Paul’s message with his own message, also divinely inspired by God the Holy Spirit.

I mean, why else would James get so “worked up” (excuse the phrase) over faith vs. works, unless the idea was gaining ground that **an intellectual faith was sufficient for salvation, while works of charity and love were just “a nice option”? **

And while we’re arguing about Abraham, let’s see how the Holy Spirit used James’ verses to illuminate us:

James 2:20 “Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.”
So sorry for this length, getting carried away is a fault I’m working on…

Anyway, please don’t any of us fault others of us for practicing works of charity, for religiously attending daily mass, for volunteering for Parish based projects, etc.

It’s quite possible that most of us are not doing these things to “earn” our way to heaven.

Rather, we are doing them because Jesus Christ commanded us to do them, and we want to love Him more and more, and to do what he tells us to do.

That’s basically it for me and mine. God Bless Us All…

 

[gardenswithkids]

linus:

A fundamental error of Catholics in handling the Scriptures is thinking that everything Jesus said in the Gospel accounts was stated under the New Covenant and applies to Christians today.

Am I reading you correctly? Do you really think it’s a problem Catholics believe the words of Jesus in the Gospels apply to Christians today???!!!

 

[Lazerlike42]

gardenswithkids:

Am I reading you correctly? Do you really think it’s a problem Catholics believe the words of Jesus in the Gospels apply to Christians today???!!!

It’s been said before: Catholics interpret Paul based on what Jesus said. Protestants interpret Jesus based on what Paul said.

 

[linus]

gardenswithkids:

Am I reading you correctly? Do you really think it’s a problem Catholics believe the words of Jesus in the Gospels apply to Christians today???!!!

Did nothing I wrote prior to my statement make sense? Or did you just dismiss it all? You didn’t comment on any of that. But let me ask you like I asked Lazer (which he ignored), have you sold all your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor? Which eye have you gouged out to keep from stumbling? Which hand have you cut off? I have yet to find a Catholic who is missing limbs because he claims he follow Jesus’ words explicitly.

There is what is called “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15, KJV), or, "handling accurately the word of truth (NASB).

 

[Lazerlike42]

linus:

There is what is called “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15, KJV), or, "handling accurately the word of truth (NASB).

You’re right! Catholics realize that the Scriptures are a Living Word, and that not everything is to be taken literally all the time. In fact, it is far more often than not Protestants whom say that we must take the words of Scripture as completely literal in all cases (although, even as they profess this as their belief, they so often choose to interpret passages literally when it fits their beliefs…)

I haven’t sold away everything I own, for one because St. Paul told me that if I don’t support my family I am worse than an unbeliever (1 Timothy 5:8).

However, the distinction you are making is completely different from a literal vs. a figurative interpretation. You are trying to determine a false dichotomy not between literalism and figuratism, but between words Jesus spoke relative to the Old Covenant and those spoken relative to the New Covenant. It is hardly the case that every word Jesus spoke before His resurrection was applicable to the Old Covenant. Some were, no doubt! Clearly when He told people to listen to the Words of the Pharisees, He was speaking of something under the Old Covenant.

We can’t however discount every word Jesus spoke in the gospels as being relative only to the Old Covenant. If we did that, we’d only have a few meager words of our Lord that are actually applicable to us today. Further, if God made sure the Bible was together correctly for us, and not the Catholic Church, as Protestants claim, He would have had no reason to give us 4 gospels full of words that mean nothing to us. If anything, this could present the very confusion that is happening here: two people with different views on whic word of Jesus to follow.

We know, therefore, that this isn’t what God did. We are still left, however, with the problem of how to know when Jesus was speaking relavent to the New Covenant. In fact, St. Peter tells us this, in 2 Peter 3:16 when he says that Paul’s letters, and all of Scripture, are hard to understand. In fact, he tells us we must be taught or else “twist” the Scriptures to our own “destruction.” Surely Jesus would not have left us without an authority to teach us!

The fact is He didn’t. He left us the Catholic Church. By the Catholic Church we know which words of Jesus are applicable for us, because He left the Church to teach us.

Let’s assume that most of Jesus’ gospel sayings were for the Old Covenant for a moment. After His resurrection, He spent 40 days teaching the Apostles even more than He had taught before His crucifixion (Acts 1:3). Would Jesus have left us a deposit of faith which contained the Old Covenant teachings of Jesus but not the New Covenant Teachings? God forbid! He left that deposit of faith to the Apostles, whom passed it to the whole Body of Christ and down to their successors. This is how we know the truths. This 40 days worth of teaching is something only the Catholic Church has. Protestants have bits and pieces of it in the form of the Epistles in which questions are answered, but only the Catholic Church has these teachings. It is by these teachings that we know which of the gospel teachings are Old Covenant, like listening to the Pharisees, and are new, like the commands of Jesus in Matthew 19:18.

Furthermore in Matthew, the commandments Jesus gives are in response to a question about eternal life. He even says, “If you want to inherit eternal life…” Since nobody can inheirt eternal life through the Old Covenant, Jesus MUST be referring to the New Covenant. Paul himself teaches the same truths time and time again.

So Linus, I ask you: without the Catholic Church to teach authoritatively, how do you know for sure which things Jesus said are for the sake of the Old Covenant Jews He was living with, and which were for those who entered into the New Covenant? Further, without the Church, how do you know for sure which of His words are literal and which are figurative? Lastly, how can you proclaim any teaching of Christ to be literal or figurative without presenting yourself as infallible, the very thing you deny for the entire Catholic Church?

 

[gardenswithkids]

linus:

Did nothing I wrote prior to my statement make sense? Or did you just dismiss it all? You didn’t comment on any of that).

What you wrote about Jesus’ words in the Gospel not being for Christians does not make sense to me, but I better understand how you approach scripture now that you clarified.

linus:

There is what is called “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2 Tim. 2:15, KJV), or, "handling accurately the word of truth (NASB).

Linus, I pray the Holy Spirit will guide my words as I write this to you, that they will be neither profane chatter nor wrangling over words.

*"Remind them of this, and warn them before God that they are to avoid wrangling over words, which does not good but only ruins those who are listening. *Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by him, a worker who has not need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the word of truth. Avoid profane chatter, for it will lead people into more and more impiety," II Timothy 2:14-16 NSRV

I believe you and others who claim to “rightly divide scripture” take II Timothy 2:15 out of context. Reading the full paragraph around verse15, it does not nullify the words of Jesus in the Gospel. St. Paul writes about us being workers, doing our best to present ourselves to God as one approved. To be workers, we must work. Then he tells us to understand the truth. To understand truth we must listen to Him who is Truth. (John 19:37)

By your interpretation, you are in effect saying that the Gospels were only intended for first century Jews in the three years ministry before Jesus’ Crucifixion. If that was the case, then why were they recorded for us at all and included in the Bible? The only other Protestants I know who agree with your “right division” idea quote the Old Testament and the Gospels to try to show that Catholicism is wrong, so I question the consistency of this argument. And the idea of “rightly dividing” the word to ignore every book of the Bible but St. Paul’s epistles doesn’t even match with “sola scriptura” because one needs to find a remote passage buried in St. Paul’s writings and a preacher in order to explain it.

Rather than ignoring the words in Jesus earthly ministry, I believe they are better understood as a build up to New Covenant, which He established at the Last Supper (Luke 22:20 This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.)

I would like to point out what St. Peter had to say about St. Paul’s epistles:
“….So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do other scriptures.” II Peter 3:15-16

The Bible itself tells us that some things in St. Paul’s letters are hard to understand. St. Peter goes on the say that we are forewarned and should beware that we are not carried away with the error of the lawless, so the idea of abandoning all law because of St. Paul’s writings is specifically addressed in the Bible as wrong. St. Peter concludes his letter a few verses later telling us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I pray that you, Linus, and all of us will grow in that grace and knowledge too.

(I’ll answer your next question in another post as this one is long.)

 

[gardenswithkids]

linus:

But let me ask you like I asked Lazer (which he ignored), have you sold all

your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor? Which eye have you gouged out to keep from stumbling? Which hand have you cut off? I have yet to find a Catholic who is missing limbs because he claims he follow Jesus’ words explicitly.You ask me if I have sold all my possessions or poked out my eye. First let’s look at Matt 19:21 “Jesus said to him, ‘If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.’” Jesus said “If you want to be perfect” then do that; He didn’t require it of all. I am a poor example of Christian perfection. St. Francis of Assisi and St. Clare were a couple of the numerous Catholics who literally gave up everything to attain perfection. I suggest they are far better examples than I. And I believe it was St. Barbara (but I’m not sure) who literally gouged out her own eye because her beauty was causing others to stumble; God miraculously restored her eye. So when you are looking for examples of Catholics who follow the Gospel, I strongly suggest you turn to the lives of the Saints.

Linus, I believe you came to this website because you have a love for Jesus and wish to help Catholics know Him. I pray that God rewards your efforts by leading you to truth. I pray that we all “grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.” ( II Peter 3:18)

Sincerely, yours in Christ, gardenswithkids.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Also, think of it this way. The New Covenant is a sacred contract between man and God.

When we offer a contract to a person, we tell them what is expected of them in the contract before we make it binding on them.

This is what Jesus is doing: telling us what is expected of us before we are held to it.

 

[Kurt_G]

Linus, it appears that both Lazer and Gardens have a wonderful dialogue going with you. I offer the following only as supplemental info:

linus:

…But let me ask you like I asked Lazer (which he ignored), have you sold all your possessions and given the proceeds to the poor?

Gardens has mentioned the likes of St. Francis (Assisi). There are more like him in early Church history, but more recent examples would be Katharine Drexel, who spent her family fortune helping educate the poor of the USA, and the ongoing support of Ave Maria University by Thomas Monaghan (founder of Domino’s Pizza), to the tune of several hundred million dollars.

I would expect that even among non-Catholic Christians, there would be similar incidences by people who wish to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ, and give away their fortunes for that cause. These people are likely responding to a tap on the shoulder from the Holy Spirit, although some from the “faith only” doctrinal camp might suspect them of “buying their way into heaven”.

And, as pointed out by Gardens, you have openly misinterpreted the Rich Man passage, Linus.

1. The question posed was “What good must I do (not we) to gain eternal life?” He asked a personalized question, and Jesus gave him a personalized answer, knowing ahead of time his love of possessions. Jesus’ answer would have no direct application for a destitute street beggar, would it?

linus:

Which eye have you gouged out to keep from stumbling? Which hand have you cut off? I have yet to find a Catholic who is missing limbs because he claims he follow Jesus’ words explicitly.

Linus, Tim Staples has openly stated on numerous occasions that he takes this passage totally literally…for this reason:

Jesus presents a theoretical choice in this passage (Matt.18) of either/or (you’re only afforded 2 choices):

Either you enter Gehenna with both hands/eyes/feet,
Or you enter Heaven with some missing parts.

He is surely stressing the importance of avoiding Gehenna, and speaks a literal truth here in Matthew:

If I knew for sure that I either:
A. enter Gehenna with both eyes, or
B. enter Heaven with one eye,
I would choose one eye, and take Heaven.
(Theoretically, Linus, which of the two would you choose?)

So we can take Jesus literally in these passages, when we understand that in reality, our sins are not committed by our body parts, they are committed by our hearts and minds. In other words, if pornography is my weakness, it is not really my eye which causes me to sin, it is my mind and heart.

But mostly, I am troubled to learn of your mistrust of Jesus’ words in the Gospels. Are there many more like you, who must pass everything Jesus said through a “user customized” Pauline filter, but still insist that you are Christians?

God Bless Us All!

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Lazerlike42:

THEOPHILUS†:

As you wish. But this is not what God says. God says that we are saved by faith without anything we do. And after we are saved, we are new creatures. And a good tree gives good fruits. We are not saved by the fruits.

Mat 19:16- 19

Ok. Matthew 19:16-19 says:

"And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;
HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

A question I would like to ask: is not Jesus GOOD? Then why is He saying that only God is good, as if He is not accepting that for Himself?

This is one of the passages that I like the most. This explains what I said. The Law is not sin! God forbid! But no one can be saved by the Law, because no one, other than Jesus, can keep the Law. That no one can be saved by the Law, the Lord showed it practically. This young man thought he can earn heaven. And we saw that he didn’t. He wasn’t even able to keep the first Commandment that he should not have other gods before YHWH. He worshiped his money.

This young man needed to deny himself, and come to Jesus with the EMPTY HAND of faith.

Jesus clearly says to us, IF you want to enter into life, [THEN]keep the commandments.

Yes, I know. So, let’s see, try to keep the commandments without being first a good tree I tell you, you will have the same problem as that young man in Matthew 19…

(and no, it doesn’t matter that I added the “then” because EVERY “If” without exception and by necessity comes with an implict “then”)

Friend, you don’t need to write much to tell me that Roman Catholics believe we must come to Jesus with FULL hands.

As for God, He says that we must come to Him through Jesus Christ with the EMPTY hands of faith.

Don’t you realise that before being saved from spiritual death, you are dead in sins, so you can’t present to God fruits of life?

THEOPHILUS†

 

[THEOPHILUS]

linus:

Well put.

“…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:9).

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:23-24).

Salvation is not a works issue, it is not a sin issue, it is being in the need of righteousness, a righteousness supplied by God on the basis of faith in Christ Jesus. It is this righteousness that was given to Abraham (long before he offered up Isaac) and David (even though he commtted murder and adultery). And it is this divine righteousness that is given to everyone who believes in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

What do you mean when you say that Salvation is not a sin issue?

THEOPHILUS†

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Lazerlike42:

Amen. So say this to our Roman Catholic friends As the real Christian faith is obedient in itself, and as it is not just a belief, then we don’t need to say that Salvation is by faith AND obedience. We can just say that Salvation is by Faith.

Sortof.

You’re right that faith is obedient, but not just “real” faith, ANY faith. This was all written and spoken between 30 and 70 AD. The concept of faith then REQUIRED obedience and loyalty. It is known as the Semitic Totality Concept. If a person did not obey, faith was NOT present. There was no “real” faith and “fake” faith. There were those with faith and those who did not.

Demons believe that God exists. Demons believe that Jesus died to save us. Is their faith the real Christian faith, the living faith that saves? Are demons obedient to God?

If you want to get picky you can. We can say that anyone who claims to have faith but is not obedient has a “fake” faith, but in reality the fact is they have no faith at all.

Right. They have no real Christian living faith at all. They just do what the demons also do.

So the fruits of faith ( good works ) are essential to justify men before HUMANS, because humans cannot see the hearts. And this justification is what James is talking about. But before God who sees the hearts, faith is enough to justify, because He knows whether this faith is genuine or not.

We must have faith and works. Only the faith part gets us to Heaven, but we muts have works to get there. Works are in a sense like an ID.

If a man goes to a club, his money (faith) is what gets him in. It’s the only thing that has anything to do with getting him in. His ID (works) aren’t gonna get him in, and neither is anything else. ONLY his money (faith) will get the bouncer to let him in. However, if he has no ID (works), the bouncer isn’t gonna accept his money (faith).

Your ID is not your works. Your works are all what RESULTS from your ID. To know your ID, I, a HUMAN, need to see your works. But God doesn’t need that. He just talks about your works as a proof of your salvation.

It is a matter of faith AND works, not just obedient faith. The important thing to remember is that the faith has an active role in getting us into heaven, whereas the works can only play an active role in keeping us out (if we don’t have any that is).

No. That’s salvation by works, dear friend. Obedient faith alone can give you life eternal. You can’t add anything to the empty hand of faith IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. All what you will have in your hands after you are saved is not yours, but the fruits of the Holy Spirit. So don’t boast of doing anything.

THEOPHILUS†

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Lazerlike42:

Coveting is a sin which will keep us out of Heaven if we aren’t repentant of it. Paul was talking, all through Romans 2-4, about the Mosaic law. The MORAL law is the one Paul tells us we have to uphold, ESPECIALLY in Romans 2.

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

The act of not doing these things is a work in and of itself!

And Paul says that we are not saved by keeping THIS Law NOT coveting and not doing all those sins will be the FRUIT of our salvation by faith. Those who are in the flesh ( not saved ), cannot keep this. So they can’t inherit the Kingdom.