What did Paul mean to be Justified by Faith?

  • Thread starter Thread starter justcatholic
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
Lazerlike42:
In Romans, Paul talks about the promise, and how it is by faith. The promise is a promise of salvation. This is promised to people by the new covenant, a covenant entered into by faith. Once a person is in it, he must follow it. This means following Jesus’ words. He tells us many things. He tells us we must confess our sins. This is a requirement of the covenant. He tells us we must not kill, or steal, or commit adultery. These are requirements of the new covenant. He tells us we must love God (which is different from having faith, by the way) and one another. He tells us we must help those without and those in need. These are all works we must do because they are required by the new covenant, which is entered into by faith alone. The works, though, are required to fulfill our half of the new covenant, the new agreement.
(1) The promise in Romans four is not specificially “salvation,” but “justification.” Paul’s argument in Romans 3 and 4 is about being “justified” BY FAITH, totally apart from works. Of course only the saved are justified. (2) Where does Jesus tell us we must confess our sins according to the New Covenant in His blood? The Apostle John in his Epistle argues against the Gnostics of his day who said there was no such thing as sin (i.e., a sin nature; 1 Jn. 1:8) when, in fact, God has declared all men sinners (Rom. 3:23), hence, those who say they have not sinned call God a liar (1Jn. 1:10). But John states emphatically that if we “confess,” i.e., acknowledge, our sins He (God) is faithful and righteous (just) to forgive us our sins (based on the substitutionary sacrifice of His Son on the cross) and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness (1 Jn. 1:9). This is a personal acknowledgement of one’s sinfulness in agreement with God, followed by faith in Christ, God’s sin-bearer. John is not talking here about an ongoing confession of sins throughout one’s life in order to be forgiven. When one “acknowledges” his sinfulness and turns by faith to Jesus Christ (see Jn. 3:14-18) God once-for-all cleanses him from ALL unrighteousness. Then John goes on to say that he writes to them so that they might not sin but if any believer does sin he has an Advocate (who pleads his case) with the Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ the righteous; He Himself being the propitiation (complete satisfaction) for the believer’s sins (1 Jn. 1:1-2). In the New Covenant through Christ’s blood complete forgiveness of sins is graciously bestowed to the sinner because of the cross, not through successive confessions. (3) You falsely argue that Paul only means works of the Law in Romans, and then you turn around and list works of the Law as requirements for salvation under the New Covenant: “do not kill,” “do not steal,” *“do not commit adultery.” * These are commands under the “Old Covenant,” the Decalogue, which Paul calls “letters engraved on stones,” being a *“ministry of death” * and “condemnation” to all bound to it (1 Cor. 3). But in Christ, and the New Covenant inaugurated in His blood, there is for those who acknowledge their sins, and turn BY FAITH to Christ, (a) complete forgiveness of all transgressions (Acts 10:43; Col. 2:13-14), (b) the imputation of Christ’s righteousness (2 Cor. 5:21), (c) the free gifts of justification and eternal life (Rom. 3:24; 6:23), (d) and complete reconciliation to God (Rom. 5:9-11; 2 Cor. 5:18-19). To name a few; it’s what the cross is all about.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God.”
 
40.png
justcatholic:
It does seem to say Abraham believed God. Paul doesn’t say God imputed righteousness to Abraham for what he did, but that he simply believed God. That belief or faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness and so Abraham was justified before God.
Code:
                             Since this **does ** seem to be the case, we all will be going to heaven by our faith in Christ and his finished work, rather than all the works we accomplish. This is what Romans 4 and 5 clearly seem to say to me.
Then you have truly understood the Biblical message of salvation. Works are part of the believer’s walk of faith, in fact they testify of his faith, but they do not, nor cannot, save him. But at the judgment seat of Christ he will be rewarded for his works, based on their tested value (1 Cor. 3:10-15). But his salvation is not at all a consideration at that judgment. Because Christ was already judged and condemned in his stead on the cross.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him
who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life” (Jn. 5:24).
 
You must read it in context. That quote was from my first treatment. My second goes through and takes Romans 2-4 step by step. If you had read my second treatment this would be unecessary (as it covers these), but nevertheless let me address your objections.
  1. This isn’t really a big deal at all I don’t even think this has any effect on what either of us are saying, so I’m not going to address it… I’m not sure I see anything wrong with what you’re saying here, but that may only be because I am thinking of it releavant to the line of thought Paul takes goes, which I address in the second treatment. It might be that you think there’s a problem here if you haven’t read it, but even if that’s true I believe that if you did you’d understand why I don’t have a problem with this.
  2. Your idea that confess=acknowledge is not correct. The Greek word here is homologeō, which means to confess or to profess. It could be interpreted as meaning acknowledge, but the grammar of the sentence makes that meaning impossible. In fact, one of the roots of the word is logos, which as a verb means “to say.” Thus the idea of speech is related to this word. More importantly the form of the word used in 1 John 9 is homologōmen, which is the present active subjunctive form of homologeō, which means the word is best expressed as “if we keep on confessing.”
The idea of using the word “believe” in John has to be reconciled with other Bible passages where we are clearly told we must do more than believe (more on this below). John is just proclaiming the good news in this passage without adding all the technicalities to it. In fact, if you wish to use this, you have a problem, because the meaning of believe is different today from at the time of Paul, when it meant to believe coupled with to be obedient. Even Protestant Bible commentators state this as a matter of fact.

Further, complete, once and for all forgiveness was not conferred without succesive confessions, not only because the form of the word in 1 John 1:9 requires we continue to confess, but also because Paul warns us again and again and again not to fall away (such as in Romans 11). If we are forgiven once and for all when we believe, then Paul would have no reason to warn us not to fall away.
  1. I do argue that Paul is refering to works of the law, and reading my second treatment will show this to be true. I do not, however, list works of the law under the Old Covenant as requirements for salvation. Rather, I list things, like “do not steal,” “do not kill,” and “do not commit adultery,” which are commandments under the New Covenant and are words of Christ. Read Matthew 19. In verse 16, a desciple asks Jesus “Rabbi, what good must I do to have eternal life?” This is the question that every person on the earth wants answered! Jesus replies by saying that only God is good, which implies that we can do no good (of course with Christ we can and we all agree on this). Because we can do no good, Jesus tells us, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” The desciple asks which, and Jesus says, " Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother; and love your neighbor as yourself." These are commandments under the New Covenant. Jesus gives us an imperitive: “IF you want to enter into eternal life, [THEN] keep the commandments.”
 
Works are NOT part of faith, but are a seperate entity altogether that function in an active partnership with faith.

James 2:22 - “Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” (NKJV)

Works cannot be a simple result of his faith, or evidence, because they are active. They are “working together with” his faith, not “shown as evidence of” or “resulting from” his faith. Works are an active part of the sentence, not passive. They are not by any means equal to faith, but they are “working together with” his faith as a lesser but active partner in the relationship.
 
40.png
linus:
But at the judgment seat of Christ he will be rewarded for his works, based on their tested value (1 Cor. 3:10-15). But his salvation is not at all a consideration at that judgment.
Paul directly refutes this idea.

Rom 2:6-8 “He will repay each one according to his works:
eternal life to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth, but are obeying unrighteousness;”

The rewards that we get “according to our works” are either rewards of “eternal life” or “wrath and indignation
 
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
No Catholic would disagree with your last two sentences.
But certainly everything I wrote prior to them, right?
Indeed, I think that the notion that we could add anything to what Jesus did for us on the Cross was anathematized by the Council of Trent.
Except works
We believe in *Sola Gratia *and *Sola Christe. *We just don’t believe in *Sola Fide *because it runs contrary to the teachings of Christianity,
But not the Bible, the written word of God.
if by *Sola Fide *you mean “fiduciary trust,” ie., “I trust you as my Savior, but I’m going to lead my life the way I bloody well please, but yeah, sure, you can save me”
Such a person has never believed in Christ as his personal Savior. That’s simply a religious “faith.” The same kind of false “faith” James presents in his Epistle and the writer of Hebrews.
or if by *Sola Fide, *you mean simple belief in Jesus, as Saint James in his epsitle warned us that “the demons believe and tremble.”
Demons do not, nor can not, believe in Jesus. They certainly know who He is but they can not believe IN Him. For the simple reason Christ did not die for demons, but for Adam’s race only. There is no redemption for demons in the shed blood of Christ. They believe “God is one,” but not “in Christ.”
I think we could bridge the gap between what Protestants believe and what Catholic believe if we could grasp that FAITH is the sum total of one’s life, from initial justification to the final perserverance of the soul that follows Christ.
However, salvation faith is not the sum total of one’s life, but total trust in the life, death and resurrection of Another, Jesus Christ, on his behalf. The idea of “initial justification” is foreign to the Scriptures:

“Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). We cannot undo what God has done once-for-all through Christ. It is God who justifies the one who has faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:26).
 
Except works
Jesus requires of us works. He tells us specifically which ones.

This does not infringe upon the fact that salvation is a gift. Think about a parent and a child. The child has always had trouble being bad (just as humans always have trouble being sinful). Imagine the two at a store, and the child asks, “Mom, will you get me this toy if I clean the kitchen?” The parent says, “No, doing good things cannot buy you anything.” This is what Jesus says to us. Now imagine the child says, “Can I have it for a gift on my birthday?” The mother responds, “If you are good, and keep your room clean, and do what I tell you, then yes.” This is what Jesus says to us. If the boy is good, and does the things his mother says, then they boy will get the gift. If he does not, the mother will not buy the boy the gift. This is what Jesus does with us. Our work can’t get him to give us salvation. However, He offers it to us as a gift, so long as we do what he says and follow his rules, just like the mother. In both cases, it is still a gift.
 
Demons do not, nor can not, believe in Jesus. They certainly know who He is but they can not believe IN Him.
EXACTLY!!!

Believing IN Jesus, in the sense of having faith, required OBEDIENCE.

Clearly, the demons are perfectly capable of believing that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, God Himself. They are perfectly capable of ackowledging that they are sinful! They know very well they are sinful. These two things are what you have said is required for salvation!

We need to have FAITH, which means to have BELIEF AND OBEDIENCE.
 
40.png
Lazerlike42:
Works are NOT part of faith, but are a seperate entity altogether that function in an active partnership with faith.

James 2:22 - “Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?” (NKJV)

Works cannot be a simple result of his faith, or evidence, because they are active. They are “working together with” his faith, not “shown as evidence of” or “resulting from” his faith. Works are an active part of the sentence, not passive. They are not by any means equal to faith, but they are “working together with” his faith as a lesser but active partner in the relationship.
You have a nice writing style, but what you say is not true. By works Abraham’s “faith” was perfected, but not his justification before God. He was already justified by faith over 20 years prior to offering up Issac. In fact James quotes Gen. 15:6 in verse 23, which was stated long before Isaac was even born. Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. In the same way, we the spiritual “sons of Abraham” believe God concerning Christ and it is reckoned to us as righteousness, as well - like Abraham - apart from works.
 
Lazerlike42 said:
EXACTLY!!!

Believing IN Jesus, in the sense of having faith, required OBEDIENCE.

Clearly, the demons are perfectly capable of believing that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, God Himself. They are perfectly capable of ackowledging that they are sinful! They know very well they are sinful. These two things are what you have said is required for salvation!

We need to have FAITH, which means to have BELIEF AND OBEDIENCE.

Wow, Lazer, it’s amazing how you constantly rationalize away the simplicity of the Biblical teachings concerning justificaiton apart from works, clearly taught by Paul. According to you God does not justify the ungodly, but the godly, and only after a lifetime of tested obedience.

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness (Rom. 4:5).
 
It’s not my writing style: it’s James’. It’s the simple rules of grammar.

It doesn’t matter whether it says his faith was perfected or his justification was. Your problem is that you simply don’t understand the Catholic teaching on the relationship between faith and works. The Catholic belief does not say that works contribute to our salvation in any way. It says they are required for our salvation. There is a huge difference. Works don’t add anything to Christ. Only Christ’s work can save us and does anything to save us. We alone are helpless, and only by faith can we be saved. Works don’t assist, help, contribute, aid, supplement, or support us in our salvation because ONLY Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross at Calvary does that. Works are however required. I know it sounds confusing but that’s how it is. It’s just like the story I wrote about the kid’s birthday party. That’s how it works. So when you hear a Catholic saying salvation by faith and works, don’t think he means works actually do anything to save us. They don’t. Christ saves us.

I know it sounds like I’m contradicting myself, but I’m not; that’s just how it works. The Catholic view is complicated you have to really study it to get it; most lay Catholics don’t even come close to understanding it.
 
40.png
linus:
Wow, Lazer, it’s amazing how you constantly rationalize away the simplicity of the Biblical teachings concerning justificaiton apart from works, clearly taught by Paul. According to you God does not justify the ungodly, but the godly, and only after a lifetime of tested obedience.

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness (Rom. 4:5).
It’s amazing how you ignore Paul’s own words:

Rom 2:6-8 “He will repay each one according to his works:
eternal life to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth, but are obeying unrighteousness;”

Isn’t it true that you say all one must do to be saved is to A) believe Christ is the Son of God, and B) acknowledge that you are sinful?

This is what demons do… where is the difference?
 
To sum up the very complicated Catholic doctrine (if that’s even possible):

1.) Faith will get you to Heaven
2.) Works can’t add anything to Faith
3.) Faith without works will keep you out of Heaven

or,

Works, even combined with Faith, won’t get you to Heaven; but a lack of Works, even combined with Faith, will keep you out.
 
40.png
Lazerlike42:
The answer, which I believe has been made by many theologians (perhaps Thomas Aquinas though I could be wrong), is that yes, we could reject Him in Heaven, but that nobody ever, ever would because of the true happiness that is in heaven (on this last part, about happiness, there is a much deeper theological understanding of it that I am not qualified to state).
Yes. And that’s why no true believer would ever ever reject Him, because the happiness of being a child of God is greater than anything in this world.
Faith by definition includes obedience. There is no such thing as an obedient faith. By the very definition of faith as it was held by Jesus and the peoples of His time, FAITH=OBEDIENCE. The idea of a true, obedient faith vs. a faith lacking in obedience is fallacious, as faith and obedience to Christ are one in the same. A faith lacking in obedience is only a belief, NOT a faith.
Amen. So say this to our Roman Catholic friends 🙂 As the real Christian faith is obedient in itself, and as it is not just a belief, then we don’t need to say that Salvation is by faith AND obedience. We can just say that Salvation is by Faith.
Not exactly, no. The Bible says that works alone can get us nowhere, and this is true. The idea that works alone can be sufficient is called Pelagianism, and it was an early heresy condemned by the Church.
And saying that we need works after faith is called semi-pelagianism or maybe Islam…
Further, you contradicted your own point. How can one be saved both by a faith which produces works, and also by a faith without them? I sense that you simply misstated your position, and you meant to say that we are saved by faith independant of any good things we do.
I said that we are saved by faith without any work. But this faith is obedient.
I also believe that you are referring here (or in other places) to St. Paul’s statement that we are saved “Not of works, lest any man boast.” I beleive that is why you say that works make men self-righteous.
Read the passage in context, however:
“Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
What St. Paul is saying here is essentially that works alone don’t save men. He is saying that we are saved through faith, not works, because if it were works alone men would boast. He is essentially condemning Pelagianism, though the idea didn’t have that title yet. There were people trying to teach (namely many of the Pharisees) that doing good works was all it took to get to Heaven. This is not at all true. St. Paul is saying that faith is required, but he does NOT say it is required ALONE. He merely says that we are not saved by works.
I don’t see the word “alone” besides the word “works”. The expression “not of yourselves” is enough to explain the word “Grace”. For if it is by grace, then it is not by works. That would be a contradiction. You can’t add works to grace.
The faith alone crowd tends to create a false dichotomy between faith and works, acting as though it’s either or, and specifically acting as though Catholics teach it’s works alone! Having faith does not exclude doing works too. Both are required.
As you wish. But this is not what God says. God says that we are saved by faith without anything we do. And after we are saved, we are new creatures. And a good tree gives good fruits. We are not saved by the fruits.

Salvation is the tree we all want. We can get it by the grace of God through faith. When we have that good tree, we make good fruits. But we don’t get the good tree by being good trees + having fruits.

THEOPHILUS†
 
40.png
Lazerlike42:
In any case, your position is that an obedient faith is all that is required. Well, ok, let’s say that’s all it takes. An obedient faith means we have faith, and because it’s obedient, we must obey God, though we are only obeying because of our faith. God tells us to do works. If we don’t do works, we are not obdedient, and our faith is not obedient. Therefore, however you arrive there, if we don’t do works, we’re not getting to Heaven!
Right. If we don’t have an obedient faith, we are not getting to heaven. So if you are not already saved by faith now, you can’t get to heaven even if you work all your life.
Finally, Calvanism is the exact opposite of Armeniansim, which is what I believe you to be. Because of what Calvanism teaches about free will, it is impossible for an Armenien to truly (they say they do) believe in free will if they also believe in faith alone, because as I have pointed out faith alone binds us to be without free will.
First, there is a misunderstanding here. Armenians are a people. While Arminianism is a doctrine. I am an Armenian, but not an Arminian 🙂

And, no dear friend, faith alone does not bind you to be without free will. We saw this in the example of people in Heaven who will never ever leave it, although they are free 🙂

I see here a misunderstanding about the idea of free will. And this is not new: many in history have misunderstood what free will means. Jesus said that those who are under sin, they are not free; they are slaves of sin. And a slave cannot do anything other than what his master commands him. In this sense, all humans born in sin are slaves and not free. But when the Son makes us free, then we are truly free.

Every man has free will as to the natural things. But no one is free to obey God unless the Son makes him free.
Your statement on original sin shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of Catholicism that I am giving it its own post, to be up shortly.
Ok 🙂

THEOPHILUS†
 
40.png
Lazerlike42:
This statement shows a complete and utter misunderstanding of Catholicism that it deserves it’s own post. This is not even anywhere CLOSE to being correct, not even within a million miles.

Original sin is first of all a state. We as humans may either be in a state of Grace, in which we are accepting of and receiving the Graces of God, or we are in a graceless State, in which we are rejecting and have not the Grace of God. Original sin is a graceless state. It is not actual sin (it is not something counted against us as if we actually did something), nor is it a requirement to sin. It merely means we are born detached from God, without His grace working in our lives.

Along with original sin comes something called concupiscence. Concupiscence is a disorderment of our minds and souls which puts us out of line with what God wants. It’s basically a confusion of priorities. What it’s practical effects are is that we are more prone to sin. We are more likely to sin. We are NOT required to sin. No baby is BOUND to sin. Every person born is born in a gracelss state. No child is born with any requirement or binding to become a sinner.

Baptism conveys God’s Grace on to us. In laymen’s terms, we say it cleanses our original sin. What it technically does, though, is not cleanse us. In reality, Baptism conveys God’s Grace to us. Whereas we are born with no Grace, baptism puts Grace into us where it was no before.

Somebody else somewhere made the analogy to a ball. We are born as a ball. God’s grace is like water pouring on the ball. When we are born, we are round and the water just falls off the ball. Baptism is like smashing a dent into the top of the ball. This dent is then capable of filling up with water, God’s Grace. When we sin, we turn the ball upside down and dump the water (Grace) out, and make it so no more can come in. When we repent, we turn the ball back up so we can get Grace again.

Original sin does NOT bind us to be sinners in any way whatsoever.
🙂 So every baby is BOUND to be graceless. He didn’t CHOOSE to be graceless in the first place.

THEOPHILUS†
 
40.png
johnpaullover:
This should be simple.

Works in Paul’s epistle means works of the law. Passover, fasting, festivals, and so on. This in NO way contradicts James 2:24 which is perhaps the best refutation of SOLA FIDE.
More simple should be to notice that Paul is talking about the moral law too.

"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.” ( Romans 7:7 )

Is coveting just Passover, fasting and festivals? 🙂

THEOPHILUS†
 
To my Roman Catholic and Protestant friends I would like to ask:

Are you sure you understand each other?

For instance, does everyone understand what Salvation by faith alone means?

Salvation by faith alone doesn’t mean Salvation from unrighteousness to unrighteousness, but from unrighteousness to righteousness.

So Salvation is NOT by faith + righteousness. Salvation itself is God’s Righteousness that we get by faith, without any righteousness in us.

When we say that Salvation is by faith without works of righteousness, I guess Roman Catholics and many protestants think we mean we don’t have to do good works. But this is not true. Sanctification is not optional for those who are justified by faith. As I said, we are saved from unrighteousness to righteousness. But no one can be righteous in the sight of God by his personal righteousness. We all need the righteousness of God which is to those who believe.

When you come to God, you need to understand and accept that you are POOR in spirit, that you don’t have any personal righteousness. Not having any personal righteousness means you can’t add any good work to your faith in order to be righteous ( justified ).

Let’s pray each of us is understanding this essential truth.

THEOPHILUS†
 
As you wish. But this is not what God says. God says that we are saved by faith without anything we do. And after we are saved, we are new creatures. And a good tree gives good fruits. We are not saved by the fruits.
Mat 19:16- 19
Just then someone came up and asked Him, “Teacher, what good must I do to have eternal life?”
“Why do you ask Me about what is good?” He said to him. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
“Which ones?” he asked Him.
Jesus answered, Do not murder; do not commit adultery; do not steal; do not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother; and love your neighbor as yourself.
Jesus clearly says to us, IF you want to enter into life, [THEN]keep the commandments.

(and no, it doesn’t matter that I added the “then” because EVERY “If” without exception and by necessity comes with an implict “then”)
 
THEOPHILUS†:
To my Roman Catholic and Protestant friends I would like to ask:

Are you sure you understand each other?

For instance, does everyone understand what Salvation by faith alone means?

Salvation by faith alone doesn’t mean Salvation from unrighteousness to unrighteousness, but from unrighteousness to righteousness.

So Salvation is NOT by faith + righteousness. Salvation itself is God’s Righteousness that we get by faith, without any righteousness in us.

When we say that Salvation is by faith without works of righteousness, I guess Roman Catholics and many protestants think we mean we don’t have to do good works. But this is not true. Sanctification is not optional for those who are justified by faith. As I said, we are saved from unrighteousness to righteousness. But no one can be righteous in the sight of God by his personal righteousness. We all need the righteousness of God which is to those who believe.

When you come to God, you need to understand and accept that you are POOR in spirit, that you don’t have any personal righteousness. Not having any personal righteousness means you can’t add any good work to your faith in order to be righteous ( justified ).

Let’s pray each of us is understanding this essential truth.

THEOPHILUS†
Well put.

“…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil. 3:9).

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:23-24).

Salvation is not a works issue, it is not a sin issue, it is being in the need of righteousness, a righteousness supplied by God on the basis of faith in Christ Jesus. It is this righteousness that was given to Abraham (long before he offered up Isaac) and David (even though he commtted murder and adultery). And it is this divine righteousness that is given to everyone who believes in the Person and work of Jesus Christ.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top