What did Paul mean to be Justified by Faith?

[Church_Militant]

THEOPHILUS†:

Friend, you don’t need to write much to tell me that Roman Catholics believe we must come to Jesus with FULL hands.

As for God, He says that we must come to Him through Jesus Christ with the EMPTY hands of faith.

Don’t you realise that before being saved from spiritual death, you are dead in sins, so you can’t present to God fruits of life?

THEOPHILUS†

Look… you need not preach to us. Especially since you have just buried yourself in a demonstration of how little you really know about Catholic beliefs.

Full hands my foot! This is your misbegotten assertion of something that you thing we believe and it’s patently false.

What is true is that Jesus plainly says that if we love Him we will keep his commandments
(John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’s commandments, and do abide in his love.)

That obedience is and alwasy has been part of the Christian faith and anyone who believes differently is certainly not in line with what the historic writings of the Early Church Fathers say they took those passages to mean.

Only for the last 500 years has anyone misinterpreted the gospel the way you have. Salvation is much more complex and beautiful than you know and our works do indeed have merit with God. Not because we earn our salvation by them (a common misstatement about the Catholic faith), but because He gives us His Spirit to guide us in works of faith and compassion. The producing of fruits of the Spirit.

Matthew 25:31-46
"31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting. " That pretty well speaks for itself…
Reward & Merit
Pax tecum,

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Lazerlike42:

Something else I learned when reading these:

Every single time in the Bible where it refers to judgement, it says we will be judged by our deeds, works, or what we have done, and not once even so much as hints at faith.

Dear friend, imagine you are in a court because someone killed your friend. The judge suddenly declares that the murderer is INNOCENT!!! You ask him how he declares that, he says: “I know his heart and mind, and I know that he is a GOOD person who didn’t kill your friend”!!!

Is this good enough to prove to you that the murderer didn’t kill your friend? As HUMAN, don’t you need a proof ( works done by the “murderer” ) to prove that he really didn’t kill your friend??

The same is with God. God knows the heart of everyone of us. He declares as righteous everyone who just BELIEVES with true living faith. But when it comes to public judgment in the last day, He declares that through the good works that are proofs of his salvation. For humans and angels and demons who will be present at the judgment cannot know the heart of that person, whether he really believes or not. They need to see proofs. And genuine believers will not have a lack of proof That’s the promise of our Lord who chose us to go and bring much fruit ( see John 15 ).

THEOPHILUS†

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Lazerlike42:

It’s interesting that you should mention Hebrews.

If faith is all that matters, then it’s intereting that the writer of the Hebrews is warning us not to sin. In fact, if Paul meant that there were no rules or commandments when he said, “All things are lawful for me,” then the writer of the Hebrews shouldn’t be warning people against sin. If all they need is faith, then by sinning deliberately, nobody would fall into the hands of the living God!

In fact, Paul was writing while already in the New Covenant, and even he tells us:

Rom 2:6-8 “He will repay each one according to his works:
eternal life to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but wrath and indignation to those who are self-seeking and disobey the truth, but are obeying unrighteousness;”

Friend, Hebrews says that if you deliberately sin after being enlightened, you cannot repent again and have life. Is this what Roman Catholics believe?

THEOPHILUS†

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Church Militant:

Look… you need not preach to us. Especially since you have just buried yourself in a demonstration of how little you really know about Catholic beliefs.

Full hands my foot! This is your misbegotten assertion of something that you thing we believe and it’s patently false.

What is true is that Jesus plainly says that if we love Him we will keep his commandments
(John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’s commandments, and do abide in his love.)

That obedience is and alwasy has been part of the Christian faith and anyone who believes differently is certainly not in line with what the historic writings of the Early Church Fathers say they took those passages to mean.

Only for the last 500 years has anyone misinterpreted the gospel the way you have. Salvation is much more complex and beautiful than you know and our works do indeed have merit with God. Not because we earn our salvation by them (a common misstatement about the Catholic faith), but because He gives us His Spirit to guide us in works of faith and compassion. The producing of fruits of the Spirit.

Matthew 25:31-46
"31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting. " That pretty well speaks for itself…
Reward & Merit
Pax tecum,

Thank you. So we all need to come to God with the empty hand of faith, without any merit in us, because we are POOR in spirit. We can only present Jesus. That’s Jesus Christ ALONE

THEOPHILUS†

 

[Church_Militant]

THEOPHILUS†:

Thank you. So we all need to come to God with the empty hand of faith, without any merit in us, because we are POOR in spirit. We can only present Jesus. That’s Jesus Christ ALONE

THEOPHILUS†

Again… putting words in a Catholic’s mouth.
Am I the only one that senses this guys’ having some sort of agenda?

Lemme set this down in clear, concise, Catholic terms.
Sola Fide is error.

 

[Genesis315]

THEOPHILUS†:

The same is with God. God knows the heart of everyone of us. He declares as righteous everyone who just BELIEVES with true living faith. But when it comes to public judgment in the last day, He declares that through the good works that are proofs of his salvation. For humans and angels and demons who will be present at the judgment cannot know the heart of that person, whether he really believes or not. They need to see proofs. And genuine believers will not have a lack of proof That’s the promise of our Lord who chose us to go and bring much fruit ( see John 15 )†

This makes no sense. So God is accountable to people and angels?? God has to prove to everyone else that His decision to save someone is the right one? I don’t think so. The fact that God judged them worthy is proof enough.

 

[Nun_ofthe_Above]

Hi everyone,
I was about to type this query in the ‘Scripture’ section, but just found this; I hope you don’t mind me joining in with my own queries and concerns.
Most of you who have seen me over the course of this year, possibly know of my theological struggles, so please bare with me and please feel free to offer me any constructive advice you may have concerning this post. Please understand, I am not out for an arguement. I am just sharing my rather bumpy journey and trying to understand…
In the intro of Galatians in my Catholic Bible, it states in the last paragraph…
‘Then he (Paul) develops the argument that it is by faith alone that people are put right with God. In the concluding chapters Paul shows that Christian conduct flows naturally from the love that results from faith in Jesus.’

The more I read Galatians, the more it seems to say that we are saved by having faith in Jesus; and a natural by-product of that faith is love and works. Christ died for our sins. If we have faith in Jesus’ salvific death on the Cross, we will naturally want to follow him with good works, but these works are not what saves us…our faith does.
Conclusion…Faith in Jesus and His Salvific action = Works, as opposed to Faith + Works = Salvation.

I know this is against Catholic teaching, but right now, this is what I am seeing in my Bible…a Catholic Bible. I know this will frustrate some people, and I apologise. I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone, whether Catholic or Protestant…I am praying to understand and this is where I am being led.

Any advice very welcome.

Peace and Love to all.

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Church Militant:

Again… putting words in a Catholic’s mouth.
Am I the only one that senses this guys’ having some sort of agenda?

Lemme set this down in clear, concise, Catholic terms.
Sola Fide is error.

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Genesis315:

This makes no sense. So God is accountable to people and angels?? God has to prove to everyone else that His decision to save someone is the right one? I don’t think so. The fact that God judged them worthy is proof enough.

Well,

“for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.” ( Romans 3:26 )

Does God need to let Jesus die with the shameful death of the cross so that He may be JUST??? What does it mean “so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus”??

Can’t God just save us without sending His Son to the World? Is God accountable to anyone, so that He would not be JUST if He does not justify those who are of faith?

Second: don’t you know that the twelve Apostles have the promise of judging the twelve tribes of Israel? Can those disciples know the hearts?

And:

“Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?” ( 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 )

Dear friend, God is not a tyrant. He will have victory over sin not by destroying the freedom of His creatures, but by really shutting every mouth, and the Accuser of the brethren will not be able to accuse anymore after the Judgment Day, because God will judge everyone according to his deeds. So everyone will see the fruits of Salvation, and no one will be able to accuse anymore.

The God of our Lord Jesus Christ is not a despot like the god of the Qur’an who does things and those who follow him do not understand what he is doing. Our God is love. He tells His children what He is doing.

THEOPHILUS†

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Nun_ofthe_Above:

Hi everyone,
I was about to type this query in the ‘Scripture’ section, but just found this; I hope you don’t mind me joining in with my own queries and concerns.
Most of you who have seen me over the course of this year, possibly know of my theological struggles, so please bare with me and please feel free to offer me any constructive advice you may have concerning this post. Please understand, I am not out for an arguement. I am just sharing my rather bumpy journey and trying to understand…
In the intro of Galatians in my Catholic Bible, it states in the last paragraph…
‘Then he (Paul) develops the argument that it is by faith alone that people are put right with God. In the concluding chapters Paul shows that Christian conduct flows naturally from the love that results from faith in Jesus.’

The more I read Galatians, the more it seems to say that we are saved by having faith in Jesus; and a natural by-product of that faith is love and works. Christ died for our sins. If we have faith in Jesus’ salvific death on the Cross, we will naturally want to follow him with good works, but these works are not what saves us…our faith does.
Conclusion…Faith in Jesus and His Salvific action = Works, as opposed to Faith + Works = Salvation.

I know this is against Catholic teaching, but right now, this is what I am seeing in my Bible…a Catholic Bible. I know this will frustrate some people, and I apologise. I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone, whether Catholic or Protestant…I am praying to understand and this is where I am being led.

Any advice very welcome.

Peace and Love to all.

The Lord bless you! You are sincerely looking for the truth in the Word of God. Yes, as you say, good works are the fruits of salvation by faith.

THEOPHILUS†

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Church Militant:

What is true is that Jesus plainly says that if we love Him we will keep his commandments
(John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’s commandments, and do abide in his love.)

That obedience is and alwasy has been part of the Christian faith and anyone who believes differently is certainly not in line with what the historic writings of the Early Church Fathers say they took those passages to mean.

Only for the last 500 years has anyone misinterpreted the gospel the way you have. Salvation is much more complex and beautiful than you know and our works do indeed have merit with God. Not because we earn our salvation by them (a common misstatement about the Catholic faith), but because He gives us His Spirit to guide us in works of faith and compassion. The producing of fruits of the Spirit.

Remember: as you said “Not because we earn our salvation by them”

Lemme set this down in clear, concise, Catholic terms.
Sola Fide is error.

So to have salvation, you say we need faith PLUS works.

THEOPHILUS†

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Church Militant:

What is true is that Jesus plainly says that if we love Him we will keep his commandments
(John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23 Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him.

John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father’s commandments, and do abide in his love.)

That obedience is and alwasy has been part of the Christian faith and anyone who believes differently is certainly not in line with what the historic writings of the Early Church Fathers say they took those passages to mean.

Church Fathers answer you:

**“Similarly we also, who by His will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, or our own wisdom or understanding or godliness, nor by such deeds as we have done in holiness of heart, but by that faith through which Almighty God has justified all men since the beginning of time. Glory be to Him, forever and ever, Amen.” ** - St. Clement of Rome (Letter to the Corinthians, par. 32)

Another Father later…

 

[bigdawg]

justcatholic:

I believe one of the hardest Protestant objections to answer is when a evangelical presents the argument from Paul’s epistle to the Romans as found in chapters 3,4 and 5 on being justified by Faith. I know many will say that faith and works go hand in hand, because of what James says in his epistle of 2:24.

But when one reads what Paul says in the above chapters, he does seem to be saying that one is justified and declared righteous before God by simple faith or belief in Jesus Christ and what he has done for the believer.Paul doesn’t mention works with faith at all, but simply believing. So how do you approach this difficult objection?

Two really good works that deal with exactly this are “Not By Faith Alone” and “How Do I Get To Heaven”, both by Robert Sungenis.

You find them at catholicintl.com/

The other thing he clears up is that “works of the law” includes the whole law; moral (the decalogue), natural or universal, and the ceremonial law. “Works of the law” is not limited to just the ceremonial law as some here contend.

He has a pretty good article at catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/justification/works1.htm
that discusses this issue in depth.

 

[THEOPHILUS]

What does Irenaeus have to say about this topic? Let’s see:

"Human beings can be saved from the ancient serpent in no other way than by believing in him who, when he was raised up from the earth on the tree of martyrdom in the likeness of sinful flesh, drew all things to himself and gave life to the dead." - Irenaeus (Against the Heresies, IV, 2, 7).

 

[bigdawg]

THEOPHILUS†:

What does Irenaeus have to say about this topic? Let’s see:

"Human beings can be saved from the ancient serpent in no other way than by believing in him who, when he was raised up from the earth on the tree of martyrdom in the likeness of sinful flesh, drew all things to himself and gave life to the dead." - Irenaeus (Against the Heresies, IV, 2, 7).

How does this contradict anything that the Church teaches?

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Let’s see what St. Basil the Great have to say about this:

"Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ." - St. Basil the Great (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

Faith ALONE??? I guess St. Basil the Great lived 500 years ago… Because as Roman Catholics say, faith ALONE is just from 500 years ago…

 

[THEOPHILUS]

St. John Chrysostom is not a Roman Catholic nor a Protestant. So whatever he says, nobody will listen to him… But I’d like to see what he says:

"They said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed; but he, Paul, shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed." - St. John Chrysostom (First Corinthians, Homily 20, PG 61.164)

Seems that John Chrysostom’s version of Paul’s Epistles contain the word “alone”…

 

[THEOPHILUS]

"For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law." - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)

After all, Chrysostom is not a Roman Catholic…

 

[THEOPHILUS]

bigdawg:

How does this contradict anything that the Church teaches?

This is what the Church teaches.

THEOPHILUS†

 

[bigdawg]

THEOPHILUS†:

St. John Chrysostom is not a Roman Catholic nor a Protestant. So whatever he says, nobody will listen to him… But I’d like to see what he says:

"They said that he who adhered to faith alone was cursed; but he, Paul, shows that he who adhered to faith alone is blessed." - St. John Chrysostom (First Corinthians, Homily 20, PG 61.164)

Seems that John Chrysostom’s version of Paul’s Epistles contain the word “alone”…

Can you give a link for this, when I go to newadvent.org and try to read the homily for myself, I can’t find the text that you are quoting in Homily 20 on 1 Corinthians.