What did Paul mean to be Justified by Faith?

[RedDeathsMask]

“For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law.” - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)

After all, Chrysostom is not a Roman Catholic…

This is what the Catholic Church teaches. No amount of works can get you to Heaven.

From the sixth session of The Council of Trent:

“If anyone shall say that man can be justified before God by his own works which are done either by** his own natural powers**, or through the teaching of the Law, and without divine grace through Christ Jesus: let him be anathema.” (Canon 14)

 

[linus]

THEOPHILUS†:

What do you mean when you say that Salvation is not a sin issue?

THEOPHILUS†

Simply that the “sin issue” was taken care of by God through the cross of Jesus Christ (Acts 10:43). Catholic doctrine with its “mortal” and “venial” sins continues to make sin a salvation issue. However, men will not have to stand judgment because of sins, but because they refuse to believe in the one who bore ALL their sins on the cross (Jn. 8:24; cf. Jn. 5:24).

Through faith in Christ God forever justifies (declares righteous) the UNGODLY (Rom. 4:5) - not the “godly.” Catholic doctrine teaches that one is “initially” justified but then one must maintain that initial justification through sacramental “obedience” and avoidance of any and all “mortal” sins." Or he will die unjustified in a state of sin. But contrary to Catholic doctrine Jesus says, unless you BELIEVE you shall die in your sins.

 

[bigdawg]

newadvent.org/fathers/220202.htm

Check out the above link to St. John Chrysostom’s (spelling?) Homily 2 on 2 Corinthians and notice:

“Your salvation is not our work alone, but your own as well; for both we in preaching to you the word endure affliction, and ye in receiving it endure the very same; we to impart to you that which we received, ye to receive what is imparted and not to let it go.” Now what humility can compare with this, seeing that those who fell so far short of him he raiseth to the same dignity of endurance? for he saith, “Which worked in the enduring of the same sufferings;” for not through believing only cometh your salvation, but also through the suffering and enduring the same things with us. For like as a pugilist is an object of admiration, when he doth but show himself and is in good training and hath his skill within himself, but when he is in action, enduring blows and striking his adversary, then most of all shineth forth, because that then his good training is most put in action, and the proof of his skill evidently shown; so truly is your salvation also then more especially put into action, that is, is displayed, increased, heightened, when it hath endurance, when it suffereth and beareth all things nobly. So then the work of salvation consisteth not in doing evil, but in suffering evil. Moreover he saith not, “which worketh,” but, “which is wrought,” to show that together with their own willingness of mind, grace also which wrought in them did contribute much.

This is the 2nd paragraph, doesn’t seem like faith alone to me, how about you?

 

[linus]

Kurt G.:

1. In Romans: a. The very first time Paul mentions Faith is in 1:5 “Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith”

b. The very last time Paul mentions Faith is in 16:26 “but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith…”

Paul does not say “obedience AND faith” but used the little preposition “of” : “obedience OF faith.” Paul’s missionary work among the Gentiles was for them to turn from their idol worship to faith in the living God through the preaching of the Gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ and the redemption in His blood:

“…and saying, men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you in order that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them” (Acts 14:15).

"For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:9-10).

This is what Paul means by “obedience OF FAITH.” This faith obedience in Jesus Christ wrought divine salvation for all who believed his message concerning Jesus Christ and His propitiatory sacrifice for their sins. In verse 16 Paul rightly calls the gospel message he took to the Gentiles “the power of God for salvation to EVERY ONE WHO BELIEVES…for in it (the gospel message of the cross) the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, but the righteous man shall live BY FAITH.” Righteousness being the necessary status for man before God.

Now you can’t simply lift out the first two chapters of Paul’s letter to Rome as if they stand alone. In fact, they’re vital in building his argument for “justification by faith” which he reveals in the third chapter. There is a “method to his madness,” you know!! In the first two chapters Paul shows that with God there is no partiality, both Jew and Gentile will be judged by God. Those who were given the Law contained in ordinances and commandments (Jews), and those who are a law unto themselves (conscience, Gentiles). But those first two chapters are just stating facts concerning divine judgment, they’re not about how a man can be justified (be righteous) before a holy God. In 3:9-18 Paul sums up the natural condition of all men (both Jew and Gentile) as: under sin and that there is NONE righteous, NOT EVEN ONE….

The issue is righteousness!! Beginning with chapter three Paul lays out how all men declared by God to be “under sin” can be by that same God declared “righteous” before Him: “even the righteouness OF GOD through faith in Jesus Christ for all who BELIEVE…” (3:22). “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being JUSTIFIED (declared righteous) as a GIFT by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus…” (3:23-24). In chapter four he gives examples of both Abraham and David who were justified by God through faith, totally apart from works.

This my friend is what Paul means by “obedience OF FAITH.” And if you would read Roman chapters three and four in this light, and accept Paul’s divinely inspired letter to Rome, you will (God willing) grasp that the gospel Paul reveals in that inspired letter truly is the “power of salvation is to everyone who BELIEVES” (Rom. 1:16). For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith" (vs. 17), not from faith to works but "the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Phil. 3:9b).

It’s quite possible that most of us are not doing these things to “earn” our way to heaven.

The only way this is possible is that you first believe Paul’s gospel, that salvation is by grace through faith alone.

“But to the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5].

 

[THEOPHILUS]

RedDeathsMask:

This is what the Catholic Church teaches. No amount of works can get you to Heaven.

From the sixth session of The Council of Trent:

“If anyone shall say that man can be justified before God by his own works which are done either by** his own natural powers**, or through the teaching of the Law, and without divine grace through Christ Jesus: let him be anathema.” (Canon 14)

Dear friend, Chrysostom is talking about ADDING anything to faith for justification:

"For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law." - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)

 

[RedDeathsMask]

THEOPHILUS†:

Dear friend, Chrysostom is talking about ADDING anything to faith for justification:

"For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law." - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)

So was the Council of Trent.

 

[THEOPHILUS]

linus:

Simply that the “sin issue” was taken care of by God through the cross of Jesus Christ (Acts 10:43). Catholic doctrine with its “mortal” and “venial” sins continues to make sin a salvation issue. However, men will not have to stand judgment because of sins, but because they refuse to believe in the one who bore ALL their sins on the cross (Jn. 8:24; cf. Jn. 5:24).

Through faith in Christ God forever justifies (declares righteous) the UNGODLY (Rom. 4:5) - not the “godly.” Catholic doctrine teaches that one is “initially” justified but then one must maintain that initial justification through sacramental “obedience” and avoidance of any and all “mortal” sins." Or he will die unjustified in a state of sin. But contrary to Catholic doctrine Jesus says, unless you BELIEVE you shall die in your sins.

Ok. I understand what you mean by sin not being the issue, because GOD took care of that.

But I don’t understand what you mean by “However, men will not have to stand judgment because of sins, but because they refuse to believe in the one who bore ALL their sins on the cross (Jn. 8:24; cf. Jn. 5:24).”

Let me just tell you why I don’t understand this. Because in the first place humans are condemned because they are sinners, as we can see in the first chapter of Romans. Well, even if Jesus didn’t come, we were condemned because of our sins.

For instance, those who never heard of Jesus, are they condemned or not?

THEOPHILUS†

 

[THEOPHILUS]

RedDeathsMask:

So was the Council of Trent.

Ok. Thank you, dear friend. So the Council of Trent says that we don’t have to add anything to faith in order to be justified?

Please, can you quote it?

THEOPHILUS†

 

[RedDeathsMask]

THEOPHILUS†:

Ok. Thank you, dear friend. So the Council of Trent says that we don’t have to add anything to faith in order to be justified?

Please, can you quote it?

THEOPHILUS†

The Council of Trent states:

" If anyone shall say that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he believes for certain that he is absolved and justified…and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are perfected: let him be anathema." (Canon 14)

“If anyone shall say that nothing except faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free, or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians: let him be anathema.” (Canon 19)

It states that Jesus saves us. Not ourselves.

 

[THEOPHILUS]

RedDeathsMask:

The Council of Trent states:

" If anyone shall say that man is absolved from his sins and justified because he believes for certain that he is absolved and justified…and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are perfected: let him be anathema." (Canon 14)

“If anyone shall say that nothing except faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free, or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians: let him be anathema.” (Canon 19)

It states that Jesus saves us. Not ourselves.

Ok… But I don’t see how this says the same thing as the following:

"For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law." - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)

Or,

**“Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ.” ** - St. Basil the Great (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

Anyway, as you wish… After all, people can interpret anyone’s writings as they wish ( including Church Fathers )…

 

[gardenswithkids]

As if to prove the earlier point I tried to make that I can’t lift a finger without the grace of God, I smashed my finger in a door, so my typing ability is now very limited. To anyone reading this please recognize that Catholics works flow from the grace of GOD.
THEOPHILUS†:

Friend, you don’t need to write much to tell me that Roman Catholics believe we must come to Jesus with FULL hands.

As for God, He says that we must come to Him through Jesus Christ with the EMPTY hands of faith.

Well, I for one, hope to come to God through the wounds in Jesus hands. My own hands are small (and now my finger is wounded) so even if my hands were full, they wouldn’t hold much. I go to God with weak and empty hands, and He places in them what He wished me to have. Right now, He allowed my hand to be filled with pain and blood, so between that and getting ready to go away on a trip, I will be staying out ot this thread for the next few days. I will be praying for all of you.

Hey fellow Catholics–I know these type of threads can get ugly, so please remain charitable! The Protestants reading this can’t see anything about your faith except your words, so pray before you type and make sure you speak the truth IN LOVE!

 

[THEOPHILUS]

gardenswithkids:

Well, I for one, hope to come to God through the wounds in Jesus hands. My own hands are small (and now my finger is wounded) so even if my hands were full, they wouldn’t hold much. I go to God with weak and empty hands, and He places in them what He wished me to have.

Do you mean EMPTY hands, or that there are some things in those small hands?

 

[bigdawg]

THEOPHILUS†:

Ok… But I don’t see how this says the same thing as the following:

"For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law." - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)

Or,

**“Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ.” **- St. Basil the Great (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

Anyway, as you wish… After all, people can interpret anyone’s writings as they wish ( including Church Fathers )…

At least with the Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, you are cherry picking.

The quote you use is taken from the section that is discussing Titus 1 verse 14.
See the whole commentary on verse 14 below:
newadvent.org/fathers/23083.htm

Chrysostom says:
Ver. 14. “Not giving heed,” he says, “to Jewish fables.” The Jewish tenets were fables in two ways, because they were imitations, and because the thing was past its season, for such things become fables at last. For when a thing ought not to be done, and being done, is injurious, it is a fable even as it is useless. As then those ought not to be regarded, so neither ought these. For this is not being sound. For if thou believest the Faith, why dost thou add other things, as if the faith were not sufficient to justify? Why dost thou enslave thyself by subjection to the Law? Hast thou no confidence in what thou believest? This is a mark of an unsound and unbelieving mind. For one who is faithful does not doubt, but such an one evidently doubts.

Titus 1:14-15 says:
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, who turn themselves away from the truth. 15 All things are clean to the clean: but to them that are defiled, and to unbelievers, nothing is clean: but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

It seems to me the passage in Titus and Chrysostom’s commentary is just saying that you are not under the Jewish law (ceremonial apparently in this case). Why do you choose to read more into it than is actually there?

 

[RedDeathsMask]

THEOPHILUS†:

Ok… But I don’t see how this says the same thing as the following…
Anyway, as you wish… After all, people can interpret anyone’s writings as they wish ( including Church Fathers )…

Basil:

“They, then, that were sealed by the Spirit unto the day of redemption, and preserve pure anti undiminished the first fruits which they received of the Spirit, are they that shall hear the words “well done thou good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things.” In like manner they which have grieved the Holy Spirit by the wickedness of their ways, or have not wrought for Him that gave to them, shall be deprived of what they have received, their grace being transferred to others; or, according to one of the evangelists, they shall even be wholly cut asunder, --the cutting asunder meaning complete separation from the Spirit” (On the Holy Spirit 16:40)

“Truly blessed is the soul, which by night and by day has no other anxiety than how, when the great day comes wherein all creation shall stand before the Judge and shall give an account for its deeds, she too may be able easily to get quit of the reckoning of life. For he who keeps that day and that hour ever before him, and is ever meditating upon the defence to be made before the tribunal where no excuses will avail, will sin not at all, or not seriously, for we begin to sin when there is a lack of the fear of God in us. When men have a clear apprehension of what is threatened them, the awe inherent in them will never allow them to fall into inconsiderate action or thought. Be mindful therefore of God. Keep the fear of Him in your heart, and enlist all men to join with you in your prayers, for great is the aid of them that are able to move God by their importunity. Never cease to do this. Even while we are living this life in the flesh, prayer will be a mighty helper to as, and when we are departing hence it will be a sufficient provision for us on the journey to the world to come.” (Letter 174)

To St. Basil, “Faith alone” means that faith must struggle along and by the Grace of God merit salvation. (Which is what the Council of Trent said).

 

[bigdawg]

THEOPHILUS†:

Ok… But I don’t see how this says the same thing as the following:

"For you believe the faith; why then do you add other things, as if faith were not sufficient to justify? You make yourselves captive, and you subject yourself to the law." - St. John Chrysostom (Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, PG 62.651)

Or,

**“Indeed, this is the perfect and complete glorification of God, when one does not exult in his own righteousness, but recognizing oneself as lacking true righteousness to be justified by faith alone in Christ.” **- St. Basil the Great (Homily on Humility, PG 31.532; TFoTC vol. 9, p. 479)

Anyway, as you wish… After all, people can interpret anyone’s writings as they wish ( including Church Fathers )…

Can you provide a link to Basil’s work, I can’t seem to find the work on the net?

 

[THEOPHILUS]

bigdawg:

At least with the Epistle to Titus, Homily 3, you are cherry picking.

The quote you use is taken from the section that is discussing Titus 1 verse 14.
See the whole commentary on verse 14 below:
newadvent.org/fathers/23083.htm

Chrysostom says:
Ver. 14. “Not giving heed,” he says, “to Jewish fables.” The Jewish tenets were fables in two ways, because they were imitations, and because the thing was past its season, for such things become fables at last. For when a thing ought not to be done, and being done, is injurious, it is a fable even as it is useless. As then those ought not to be regarded, so neither ought these. For this is not being sound. For if thou believest the Faith, why dost thou add other things, as if the faith were not sufficient to justify? Why dost thou enslave thyself by subjection to the Law? Hast thou no confidence in what thou believest? This is a mark of an unsound and unbelieving mind. For one who is faithful does not doubt, but such an one evidently doubts.

Titus 1:14-15 says:
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men, who turn themselves away from the truth. 15 All things are clean to the clean: but to them that are defiled, and to unbelievers, nothing is clean: but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

It seems to me the passage in Titus and Chrysostom’s commentary is just saying that you are not under the Jewish law (ceremonial apparently in this case). Why do you choose to read more into it than is actually there?

“Why do you choose to read more into it than is actually there?”

I really don’t know why… Maybe because I accept things with the faith of a child, without putting glasses of any denomination?..

Maybe…

 

[Fidei_Defensor]

The protestants easily forget that Christ Himself stressed the importance of WORKS for salvation.
Matt 25:32-46:

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ "They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ "He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

[bigdawg]

“Why do you choose to read more into it than is actually there?”

I really don’t know why… Maybe because I accept things with the faith of a child, without putting glasses of any denomination?..

Maybe…

Theo,

My question was limited only to Chrysostom and Titus not your general understanding of the scriptures. What I was trying to say is that I don’t think that Chrysostom’s homily in this case goes against the Catholic understanding of justification because he was commenting on a particular case which from the epistle to Titus had to to with Judaizing Christianity.

 

[THEOPHILUS]

Fidei Defensor:

The protestants easily forget that Christ Himself stressed the importance of WORKS for salvation.

Yes, Protestants may do this mistake, but not concerning salvation, but the FRUITS of salvation. For instance, there are people who think sanctification is optional…

Anyway, what you say is not exact. You must say: “many people easily forget that Christ Himself stressed the importance of WORKS as EVIDENCE of Salvation”…

Have nice time.

THEOPHILUS†

 

[gardenswithkids]

THEOPHILUS†:

Do you mean EMPTY hands, or that there are some things in those small hands?

When I held my empty hands to God and offered them to Him to do with as He wills, He placed babies and the even smaller hands of my children in my (formerly-empty) hands. As I walk around the store with a cart loaded with groceries and children, people frequently say to me, “You’ve got your hands full…you’ve got your hands full…you’ve got your hands full.” If God wants those babies and children back, they are His to do with as He desires. I try to keep my hands at His service, and they are only as full as He allows them to be.