what do baptists think of catholicism and catholics?

[7_Sorrows]

From what I have read Baptists are offshoots of Calvinism / Presbyterianism. They have a number of different denominations within the “Baptist” scope. They believe that the only valid baptism is by total immersion. They teach that once you are “saved” you are always “saved”. The Catholic Church believes that salvation is a process not a one time event. That you can lose your salvation. It all boils down to free will. The Catholic Church has always taught that we humans are completely free to choose or reject God’s grace. The Calvinists believe that we are all predestined for salvation or damnation and there is nothing we can do about it. They teach that you can only rely on the Bible differing with the Church on the nature of the fall of man, and the commission and authority of God’s Church.
Why they hate the Catholics so much is beyond me. But my daughter recently moved to Tennessee and got a stomach full from people when they found out she was Catholic. It wasn’t like they tried to convert her, they shunned her. Neighbors refused to speak to her after they found out she was Catholic. She was amazed and had a hard time believing that people who were supposed to be Christians could be so cruel.

i feel very sorry for your daughter. there are definitely people out there with strong anti-catholic feelings. i can understand why she was so shocked at their treatment.

another friend of mine kept getting me to try to join her church (these were my pre-Catholic days). her church was a multi-cultural evangelical church with strong Calvinistic beliefs. it was very strickt. i admired the pastor, though, and knew that he had a strong love for Christ, but he was very controlling and if you stopped going to the church, the other members were not allowed to have anything to do with you. i didn’t agree with the Calivinistic teachings so i didn’t last long.

thank you all again for your posts. it is very interesting to read everyone’s thoughts on this topic.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Most Catholics do not understand their church’s own teaching between dulia, hyperdulia and latria; as you also misunderstand the Catholic teaching on the subject.

Anyone who wants to know more about the actual teaching, which teaches dulia and hyperdulia fall in the category of WORSHIP and extends not only to Mary, Saints, but also the Statues and relics. Click HERE for more information, which is important to read as I summarized and there are details/distinctions that cannot be summarized and need careful examination to avoid a blanket “catch all” understanding or misunderstanding. It is safe to say that veneration is a form or type of WORSHIP, which is why Catholics get crazy looks from people when they try to say that veneration is not the same as WORSHIP; it is, but it is the form that it takes in relation to God, in relation to Mary and in relation to the others, which is where the Catholic needs to clarify and make the specific distinctions. Just my 2 cents, read and drawl you own conclusion; that is what I have done.

Most Catholics I have spoken to say they dont worship Mary, I am inclined to take them at their word.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

The primary difference in a nutshell is one is based on a works righteousness and the other says God alone. One says man MUST cooperate ( meritorious works) in his own salvation with God, which denies the total sovereignty of God in salvation, in effect renders the work of salvation on the cross as insufficient, and the misunderstands purpose of salvation. Whereas the other recognizes the total sovereignty of God to show mercy upon who He chooses and that there is nothing inside a man that can merit anything before a holy and just God.

Free-will becomes an explanatory difference between the two views, but underlying this is something even bigger which deals with pride and with a misunderstanding of “His ways are higher than our ways”.

TULIP makes God evil by any standard. It nearly destroyed my faith in Gods word.

 

[greggy53]

The primary difference in a nutshell is one is based on a works righteousness and the other says God alone. One says man MUST cooperate ( meritorious works) in his own salvation with God, which denies the total sovereignty of God in salvation, in effect renders the work of salvation on the cross as insufficient, and the misunderstands purpose of salvation. Whereas the other recognizes the total sovereignty of God to show mercy upon who He chooses and that there is nothing inside a man that can merit anything before a holy and just God.

Did Moses cooperate with God? Did Abraham cooperate with God? Did Noah cooperate with God? Did Mary cooperate with God.?
James 2, 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

The question is not whether they did or not because we know they did. The question is did they cooperate freely?, Or were they predestined or forced to cooperate?

Free-will becomes an explanatory difference between the two views, but underlying this is something even bigger which deals with pride and with a misunderstanding of “His ways are higher than our ways”.

Free will deals with the nature of God, and his relationship with his creation.
The question is : Are we made in his image and likeness? Or are we dogs on leashes; zombies that blindly follow orders? As we see from James our free cooperation with God’s salvation plan is vital. Our mother Mary by freely accepting God’s will played a vital role in the birth of our Savior. Man is not forced to cooperate as you say above, but freely chooses to accept God or reject. It does not lessen God’s work on the cross but is necessary in order for Gods’ work.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

How is that possible when God determined before the foundation of the earth, way before the Catholic church, who the elect were?

You beg the question. You should have said, ‘…before the Catholic Church was manifested on earth.’ All things are possible for God.

Are you saying that Catholics are the elect? Are you saying God is wrong?

To your first question, since the Lord came to form one Church, yes.

No to the second question, though protestants seem to think He is.

Are you saying the Bible is with error? Does the gospel transcend denominations?

To your first question, protestants seem to think it is, but I’ll leave it up to you. In John, Jesus says the one who will betray Him is the one to whom He hands the morsel of food. In Matthew He says it’s the one who dips his hand in the dish with Him. It’s a clear contradiction. Which one is wrong?

To your second question, no. Jesus, as noted, came to form one Church. He said there shall be one flock and one Shepherd. He said He will send the Spirit to guide the Church to all truth. Jn 16:13. He said He will be with His Church until the end of the world. Mt. 28:20. The only Christian Church to exist from Pentecost to today is the Catholic Church. The protestant sects were all spawned from a 16th Century heresy.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Most Catholics I have spoken to say they dont worship Mary, I am inclined to take them at their word.

Thank you. Most Protesants, probably including Masters Servant, have been told MANY TIMES we do not worship Mary. They refuse to accept it because, if they do, they will have to drop one of their favorite sticks they use to beat the Church and they don’t want to let it go.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

The primary difference in a nutshell is one is based on a works righteousness and the other says God alone. One says man MUST cooperate ( meritorious works) in his own salvation with God, which denies the total sovereignty of God in salvation, in effect renders the work of salvation on the cross as insufficient, and the misunderstands purpose of salvation. Whereas the other recognizes the total sovereignty of God to show mercy upon who He chooses and that there is nothing inside a man that can merit anything before a holy and just God.

Free-will becomes an explanatory difference between the two views, but underlying this is something even bigger which deals with pride and with a misunderstanding of “His ways are higher than our ways”.

That all has a nice ring to it but it completely ignores Matthew 25 31-46. Why did Jesus bother to make that teaching if it means nothing, as you infer? There’s not a word about faith in the passage.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Most Catholics I have spoken to say they dont worship Mary, I am inclined to take them at their word.

You are very wise!

Patrick Coffin of CAF Live says Protestants have a different understanding of prayer. For most Protestants, prayer=worship. Not so for Catholics.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p4s1c2a2.htm

2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,41 especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were "put in charge of many things."42 Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.

2684 In the communion of saints, many and varied spiritualities have been developed throughout the history of the churches. The personal charism of some witnesses to God’s love for men has been handed on, like “the spirit” of Elijah to Elisha and John the Baptist, so that their followers may have a share in this spirit.43 A distinct spirituality can also arise at the point of convergence of liturgical and theological currents, bearing witness to the integration of the faith into a particular human environment and its history. The different schools of Christian spirituality share in the living tradition of prayer and are essential guides for the faithful. In their rich diversity they are refractions of the one pure light of the Holy Spirit.

 

[davebennett88]

I’m a Christian who attends a Baptist church, and believe people from just about every denomination are, and should be called “Christians.” I love all my Roman Catholic friends, and in my youth would have spirited but good-natured debates about various articles of faith. I would cringe when one of these friends would call someone a “good Catholic,” when “good Christian” would have been much more appropriate. I will always be saddened by any denomination that purports to exclude others from the Kingdom of Heaven. Last I checked, only God gets to decide such things on Judgment Day. Meanwhile, I say it’s best to look for the similarities we all have and find ways to love one another around and through our minor differences. I understand that there is no Bible verse that dicates how a proper “crossing of oneself” should be done, or the dimensions of the pope’s hat, or the correct procedure of a Hail Mary, Rosary, etc., but that these traditions give people pleasure. As long as the pleasure of tradition does not interfere with important aspects of a common faith, we should not have a problem. Nobody should judge as “not a real Christian” or as “falling short of Heaven” a person who chooses not to embrace Roman Catholicism’s traditions. Believing that Jesus was who He said He was, that He died for our sins, that He wants us to love God more than anything else and our neighbors as ourselves, and that we should not be hypocrites seem to be the main themes He brought to earth in His time. In fact, He did a good bit of roughing up the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees* for being pompous, bound to rules and regulations they dreamed up for people, and completely missing God’s message. Seems we should not make that same mistake again.
God bless you all.
Dave

*biblemeat.com/articles/wackerly1.htm#pharisees

 

[qui_est_ce]

The primary difference in a nutshell is one is based on a works righteousness and the other says God alone. One says man MUST cooperate ( meritorious works) in his own salvation with God, which denies the total sovereignty of God in salvation, in effect renders the work of salvation on the cross as insufficient, and the misunderstands purpose of salvation. Whereas the other recognizes the total sovereignty of God to show mercy upon who He chooses and that there is nothing inside a man that can merit anything before a holy and just God.

Free-will becomes an explanatory difference between the two views, but underlying this is something even bigger which deals with pride and with a misunderstanding of “His ways are higher than our ways”.

This is a complete misunderstanding of CC Teaching. The Catechism teaches that we are saved by God’s Grace ALONE.

Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

Now, can you tell me what Moses DID, that prevented him from entering the Promised Land?

[BIBLEDRB]james 2:14-26[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’m a Baptist/Free Methodist/Nazarene (depending on what church is available where I move) who thinks it’s possible for other denominations to be called “Christians.” I love all my Roman Catholic friends, and in my youth would have spirited but good-natured debates about various articles of faith. I will always be saddened by any denomination that purports to exclude others from the Kingdom of Heaven. Last I checked, only God gets to decide such things on Judgment Day. Meanwhile, I say it’s best to look for the similarities we all have and find ways to love one another around and through our minor differences. I understand that there is no Bible verse that dicates how a proper “crossing of oneself” should be done, or the dimensions of the pope’s hat, or the correct procedure of a Hail Mary, Rosary, etc., but that these traditions give people pleasure. As long as the pleasure of tradition does not interfere with important aspects of a common faith, we should not have a problem. Nobody should judge as “not a real Christian” or as “falling short of Heaven” a person who chooses not to embrace Roman Catholicism’s traditions. Believing that Jesus was who He said He was, that He died for our sins, that He wants us to love God more than anything else and our neighbors as ourselves, and that we should not be hypocrites seem to be the main themes He brought to earth in His time. In fact, He did a good bit of roughing up the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees for being pompous, bound to rules and regulations they dreamed up for people, and completely missing God’s message. Seems we should not make that same mistake again.
God bless you all.
Dave

Hi Dave-
Welcome to CAF.

Hopefully you will learn there are a lot of misconceptions about this teaching of the CC.

When the Church says there is no salvation outside of the Church, she means that the Church was given to us by Jesus to witness and preserve His Truth to the world. You do not have to be a Catholic to be saved. All Christian participate in the Church, if not fully. We believe the Catholic Church contains the FULLNESS of Christ’s teachings. This does not mean other Christians faiths do not share on parts of this fullness.

In other words, if it were not for the CC, Monks copying the Bible during the Dark Ages, there would be no knowledge of the True teachings of the Holy Spirit, because it would long ago have been wiped out by the Barbarians and heretics.

God bless you on your journey.

 

[informed]

I am a former Catholic and was taught for 12 years in Catholic elementary and high school.

I will make this short, but we (independent fundamental baptists) do generally use the KJV because we believe it is the closest to the original Greek and Hebrew, not that the english version interpreters were inspired.

I personally love Catholics, maybe more so because my husband and I once were Catholic, and can relate to them better. I have never heard anyone at my church speak derogatorily about Catholics but we do agree that salvation comes from believing Jesus is the son of God, crucified for our sins, and risen. We do not believe salvation comes from works (sacraments, joining any particular church) but by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus.

 

[greggy53]

I too attended Catholic school for 12 years, and was taught that we are saved by Grace. You’ve got the wrong idea about what the sacraments are. Sacraments are vehicles of God’s grace, and blessing.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I too attended Catholic school for 12 years, and was taught that we are saved by Grace. You’ve got the wrong idea about what the sacraments are. Sacraments are vehicles of God’s grace, and blessing.

I attended 12 years of Catholic schools and 4 years of Catholic University. I graduated university over 20 years ago. My religious education did not stop at graduation.

The contention that the KJV is the most accurate is simply not correct. The NAB is far more accurate and unbiased. It’s translation is the work of both Catholic and non Catholic Biblical scholars. Much has been learned about the correctness of the OT, including which books properly belong to the OT since the KJV was written. The KJV version was written by Church of England scholars to ensure the new version would conform to the beliefs and structures of the Church of England. Esdras was translated from the Latin Vulgate (Catholic translation)!! It ignored the Greek Septuagint which was used by Jesus, and which until the Reformation. had been the source of inspired Scriptures. Most importantly, it lifted 7 books from the OT, renamed them “Apocrypha,” and removed them from their rightful place in the ancient texts.

The fragments found in Qumrun confirm the Hebrew origins of the Septuagint.

The English of the KJV, while beautiful, is archaic and easily misinterpreted.

 

[qui_est_ce]

We do not believe salvation comes from works

Welcome to CAF. This is a great place to grow in faith and knowledge.

 

[Nicea325]

**I am a former Catholic and was taught for 12 years in Catholic elementary and high school.

I will make this short, but we (independent fundamental baptists) do generally use the KJV because we believe it is the closest to the original Greek and Hebrew, not that the english version interpreters were inspired.

I personally love Catholics, maybe more so because my husband and I once were Catholic, and can relate to them better. I have never heard anyone at my church speak derogatorily about Catholics but we do agree that salvation comes from believing Jesus is the son of God, crucified for our sins, and risen. We do not believe salvation comes from works (sacraments, joining any particular church) but by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus**

No offense,but you never learned what the RCC taught on salvation. The RCC has NEVER taught salvation comes solely through works or the sacraments. That is an error and is so common among Baptists to relay that inaccurate belief about the RCC.

Salvation is not from faith-alone either,which is a bogus doctrine fabricated 1500 years later… Salvation as it has always been taught by the RCC comes through Grace-alone from God. As the St.James said: faith without works is dead.

Even my NKJV Study Bible states Martin Luther went to far and even goes out on the limb to state faith and works are both necessary,not against each other. I have noticed many Protestant scholars are starting to realize that truth and that the RCC never taught such a fallacy of works alone saves.

 

[usemelord]

Why do I always get CAF in my e-mail when the threads are already two weeks old? Oh well, I’ll just have to accept it. Not having read all the posts let me just reflect on my own personal experience. I was raised Protestant, mostly in a Bible Church setting, and all my life sincerely believed that all I needed was the Bible and the Cross. I was “born again” at around age 12. Any friends of mine who were Catholic left me scratching my head. They were typically, shall we say, not very Christian. They would cuss and do all manner of nasty unchristian things during the week and go to confession on Saturday to “get the slate wiped clean” and then start all over again. This was mystifying to me. Moreover, Catholics never brought a Bible to church, and priests (of all people) drank alcohol and smoked!! (Shame, shame.) To a fundamental Christian like myself all these things were unthinkable and in apposition to what I perceived what true Christians should be. Why all the statues, the Rosary, and the role of Mary, etc.? The Bible and the Cross were sufficient for me. All these Catholics “supplements” were, to me, superfluous, unnecessary and distractions from focusing on Christ alone. Now, fast forward to age 60 (that would be 2004). Although I married a lifelong Catholic and we raised our two kids Catholic, I never understood what Mass was all about. Nobody ever explained it. Mass seemed so robotic. Then, through a series of unforeseen events I decided to enter RCIA, not because I desired to please my family, rather for my own edification. In fairly rapid fashion I began to understand and appreciate what Mass was all about, and I mean every little step from beginning to end. All those misconceptions about the Catholic church which I had held onto for so many years vanished like a heavy fog lifting. Happily I entered the Catholic faith at Easter Vigil 2005 and will be celebrating my fifth “birthday” in just a few days. During my RCIA journey I had a few non-Catholics Christian friends wonder why I would ever consider converting. They would ask typical questions such as, “Why do Catholics ‘worship’ Mary.” Fortunately, I had most of the answers and assured my friends that I was not joining enemy forces! In the ensuing five years I have never experienced such ongoing joy and spiritual fulfillment. I can attribute most of that change to adherence to the Sacraments, especially, of course, the Eucharist. Praised be Jesus.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Most Catholics I have spoken to say they dont worship Mary, I am inclined to take them at their word.

I am inclined to go straight to the source, which is the Church resources, which I have posted several times trying to educate Catholics and help them to explain the differences between latria worship, hyperdulia worship and dulia worship, so when they are asked, they can give an answer other than “veneration is not worship”, which anyone who has a dictionary, heck you don’t even need one to know they are synonymous, thus they loose all credibility. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, then it is a duck.

So for the Catholic, they need to read what their own sources have to say on the subject and explain the different types of worship. Click HERE In fact, if it was done right, when someone makes the comment that “you worship Mary or you worship statutes”; they have a door wide open to discuss their faith by explaining the differences and what it means to them and to their faith.

 

[Masters_Servant]

TULIP makes God evil by any standard. It nearly destroyed my faith in Gods word.

If you believe the Bible, which is God’s word, makes Him destroy your faith, then that faith was/is built on sand. Which part of the Bible would you like to trow out?

Romans 9:14-24
14 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For ***He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” *** {There is your evil god} 16 So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy. **{ There is your evil god }**17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whomever he chooses, **{ there is that evil god } **and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. 19 You will say to me then, "Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? {see how evil your god is? } " 20 But who indeed are you, a human being, to argue with God? Will what is molded say to the one who molds it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the Potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one object for special use and another for ordinary use? 22 What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience ***the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; *** **{ there is that evil god again **}23 and what if He has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, **{ this is one of God’s primary purposes for ALL creation }*****which he has prepared beforehand for glory - 24 including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? *** -------This is when He decided all of it.

Decision time: should we throw out Romans 9? Lets move on…

Mt 3:12
“His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” —notice the ownership and notice the sovereignty of this evil god. Should we through this out as well?

I could do this with every book in the NT and almost every book in the OT; the point is the faith that does not understand God and does not accept the God of the Bible is a dead faith regardless of the person.

In your world, the god you have created would mean everyone is in heaven; otherwise it is not fair unless you believe their is something you can do to EARN your salvation that would make God look down at you and say “you are so much better than this person over here and you have done so many wonderful things compared to this person; please come into my presence”. That god is not in the Bible. Salvation is designed to display His attribute of Mercy and give him the glory He deserves and the lost for which His wrath remains will also give Him glory because it displays His righteous judgment; for ALL have fallen short of the glory of God and not one seeks after God, not one. Salvation is of God and by God and for God. God, God, God - it is true whether you believe it or you don’t or anyone for that matter.

What will you do faced with this reality? I know what i would do; i would be like that tax collector in Luke and deal with my sin and beg God for mercy. That’s me and to each his own for the decisions we make concerning God will last forever.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Did Moses cooperate with God? Did Abraham cooperate with God? Did Noah cooperate with God? Did Mary cooperate with God.?
James 2, 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?

The question is not whether they did or not because we know they did. The question is did they cooperate freely?, Or were they predestined or forced to cooperate?

Free will deals with the nature of God, and his relationship with his creation.
The question is : Are we made in his image and likeness? Or are we dogs on leashes; zombies that blindly follow orders? As we see from James our free cooperation with God’s salvation plan is vital. Our mother Mary by freely accepting God’s will played a vital role in the birth of our Savior. Man is not forced to cooperate as you say above, but freely chooses to accept God or reject. It does not lessen God’s work on the cross but is necessary in order for Gods’ work.

You are missing the mark and confusing the works prepared beforehand that the people of God would walk in them; also in the Bible, with how God justified, made righteous in His sight, saved them from His wrath, which is by what? FAITH Read Hebrews chapter 11 and count how many time the phrase “by faith” is used in relation to most of the people you mentioned above. You can only do what your nature allows and what kind of nature do you have? A sin nature. When does one shed the sin nature for a new nature? When God changes that nature, the sinner cannot change his nature; he can only do what is in his nature. Not until God gives the new nature can one be holy and righteous deeds, but not before.

What you describe above is a meritorious works based salvation not taught in Scripture. How much work is enough? How do you know your work was righteous or not righteous in His sight? At what point can the balance be on your favor given the amount of sin we all produce on a daily basis? You can’t know because you can’t merit salvation it is as the Bible declares a GIFT.

I do understand the issue of free-will; that it is hard if not impossible to wrap our minds around it. When we think we have it figured out, then you can bet you have it wrong. The Bible does say that people go to hell for rejecting the Savior or the revelation He has given if someone has not heard of the gospel. Yet, the Bible also teaches that we would not choose God and in fact can’t choose God unless God removes the veil of blindness. So I walk by faith knowing that God has all that figured out and that I am incapable of understanding the paradox like I wish I could. Try to wrap your mind around the trinity or who wrote the Bible God or man; its both. i do not pretend to know how He has worked it; but I trust Him and know He is righteous and He is just for no one deserves to be with Him; so anyone He chooses to be with Him is an act of mercy.