what do baptists think of catholicism and catholics?

[qui_est_ce]

I don’t think we have gotten out of line. Perhaps the poster who claimed that was just getting frustrated.

Maybe he found out his “facts” weren’t true!

 

[usemelord]

There seems to have been a lot of “ink” on previous posts pertaining to whether or not “veneration” means the same thing as “worship.” Without even looking up definitions of the words in a dictionary to see if they are synonyms, I will simply relate something from my own personal experience. I was a “born again” Protestant for sixty years and came into the Catholic faith five years ago through a series of unexpected events. One of my Christian co-workers at the time seemed very upset with me and asked me why Catholics “worship” Mary. I could not have answered the question a year earlier, but I did answer him by saying, “Charles, don’t you love your mother.” Naturally, he could not deny that he didn’t love his own mother dearly. I next asked, “Don’t you believe that Jesus is God?” Again, “Yes, of course,” Charles responded. Then I asked, “Wasn’t Mary the mother of Jesus?” Charles again replied in the affirmative that, indeed, Mary was the mother of Jesus. “Then”, Charles, “doesn’t it follow that if Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, that Mary is the Mother of God?” If you love your own mother, how could you possible find it in your heart not to love the Mother of your risen saviour? And to love Mary is, to me, to venerate her, to thank her for saying “yes.” I do not worship Mary because to my way of thinking worship belongs exclusively to my Lord. As a former Protestant, another thing I could not understand was the presence of statues, but now I understand perfectly. Once again, they are not there for worship, at least not from where I stand. They are there to remind us of all those who gave up their lives for the sake of the Church and, hopefully, to instill in ourselves the same kind of love and devotion. In summary, I personally see a distinct difference in veneration and worship notwithstanding what some dictionary might suggest otherwise. So there you have it. Just one man’s opinion, thank you.

 

[greggy53]

Maybe he found out his “facts” weren’t true!

.In my opinion the Calvinistic “once saved always saved”, predestination and Bible only teachings are difficult to defend. I’ve watched a few people paint themselves into a corner defending them. Not that anyone here has done that. It’s just hard to defend and easy to refute with a little logic and scripture. A lot of folks I don’t think realize that the Catholic Church has been around for a very long time and has “wrapped it’s mind” around every conceivable theological problem and issue. The wealth of history, knowledge and guidance of the Holy Spirit has given the Church a very solid Rock to build it’s teachings and beliefs upon. I think a lot of Protestants that come here are shocked at the depth of Biblical knowledge, and spirituality the Catholics here on this forum possess.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Can God lie? Then not all things are possible with God.

I notice you have ducked out. Twice; once from me and again with the group. It’s what protestants usually do when they realize they’re not talking to an idiot. Inspite of your announced departure, I will respond to your thoughts just so they don’t go unanswered.

CAN God lie? God CAN do anything He wants to do, so the ansewr is, yes. DOES God lie? No, though protestants try to make a liar out of Him. The Lord said “All things are possible with God.” I believe Him.

How is that church defined in Scripture and does it resemble any denomination earth? No.

Why does it have to be found in Scripture? Please show me any competent authority before the 16th Century that says it has to be found in Scritpure to be valid. Please don’t throw Paul’s ‘all Scripture is sufficient’ out there. It doesn’t say what you want it to say and it’s a non-starter.

The first written appearance of ‘Catholic Church’ occurred in 102 A.D. and it’s been called ‘The Catholic Church’ ever since whether you like it or not. The Church is ‘defined’ in a number of Scripture passages. It’s been in existence for 2000 years. That’s a matter of history, not your opinion.

Neither are wrong for both happened from two persons perspective; just as if two people witnessed a car accident from different corners. This tells me you believe the Bible contains error, which tells me a lot.

This deals with your statement that Scripture is without error and my citation of two contradictory statements by Our Lord regarding how the Apostles were to identify the one who was to betray him. You have pulled another typical protestant trick by trying to turn the subject around and make it about me.

Your first statement is a nonsequiter amd doesn’t answer the question. You have simply told us how the contradiction came about, which everyone knows. Contradictory statements cannot both be right, so the question , which you obviously don’ t want to answer, is still open.

Your habit of telling Catholics what they believe isn’t serving you well.

You misquote scripture and out of context. But since you do not believe it is infallible, at least this was the implication it is not surprising. He sent the Holy Spirit to guide the individual, not the institution, It is the collection of the elect that make up the church and you do not know who the elect are although you said you do, which makes you more knowledgeable than all the angels in heaven if what you said was true, which of course it is not…

You say I’ve misquoted Scripture but you don’t say how. Actually, I didn’t quote Scripture at all; I paraphrased the Lord in both instances and I go it right both times.

Show me in Scripture where it says the Lord sent the Holy Spirit to the individual. It isn’t there. The Lord was speaking to a group – the men who would become the leaders of the Church He came to build upon Peter. THAT’s in Scripture.

Your concept in absurd on its face and it’s just one of the ways protestants make a liar of Our Lord. There are millions of protstants in the world and thousands of opinions on a variety of doctrinal subjects. Has the Spirit led all of them to the truth? Nonsense. There is one truth, just as there is one Church. It isn’t yours.

As for your ‘elect’ I have nothing to do with Calvinism and reject its dictatorial notions. You have been led into serious error.

 

[mencle]

Well, they send missionaries to countries like the Philippines to reach the Catholics for Christ, if that’s any indication of what Baptists think.

They tend to think that Catholicism is a pagan distortion of Christianity; and that if a Catholic is really “saved,” he or she will leave the Catholic Church. Most do not hate individual Catholics; but they do hate Catholicism. Many have a genuine concern for Catholics as being “lost” and on their way to hell.

I am a former Baptist, by the way; and my parents and other family members belong to a Baptist (independent) church.

well I encountered my baptist teacher in some conversations but not as deeply as debate
I am a filipino he try to convince me in any possible way such as buy a book of baptist or go to baptist churches but he did’nt make to convince me because nobody in my family was in other religion and also I learned to how to enlarge my faith by reading some books and story of some faith defender of the catholic church…

 

[Masters_Servant]

To Whom It may Concern

Since I was off topic and could not completely respond how I would like to without violating the “stay on topic” rules along with a false accusation by a poster; I have started a thread that should allow for some healthy debate on the sovereignty of God in salvation and the reconciliation of James and Paul concerning Salvation and works. Anyone is welcome to join if they have unanswered question or comments.

Click HERE

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

You are ignorant of your own church’s teaching; I am not. Go to the Catholic encyclopedia and type in Christian worship and not only do you worship Mary, but statues and relics are also okay to worship. I have studied your church and have read the CCC at least 3 times in the past 6 months and a plethora of other information.{?QUOTE]
I’ve been a Catholic for a very long and am quite sure of what my Church teaches thank you. I’m also quite sure you have no idea what my Church teaches and have made for yourself a list of opinions, buttressed by a willing inability to understand what you read, to support your prejudices.
Masters Servant;6468309:

Just so you know, there are many Catholics who rightly say they do worship Mary of the Church.

I don’t know of any and, absenting documentation of your allegation, I deny it. Do you really think you can say whatever you please and have rational people believe it? If you have found such people, they are as ignorant of Catholic teaching as you are.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Way to deep for your understanding. First it is not a teaching; it is a statement of fact of how he will separate the elect from the non-elect.

Statements of fact are actually very easy to understand and I understand Our Lord’s words in Mt 25 perfectly. There is nothing there about the ‘elect’ as you understand it. It is a clear TEACHING of how we are to treat the Lord in the guise of the poor and is based entirely on works. It says those who peform the works Our Lord lists will go to everlasting life, those who don’t will go to everlasting fire. Period.

Your use of ‘the elect’ is a perversion of the doctrine of predestination and a misreading of Paul.

The elect have already come by faith and the non-elect are the Christ deniers, so there is no need to mention “faith”, the decisions were already made and this is about His Second Coming and the judgment.

Show that to me in Scripture. The ‘decisions already made’ that you speak of are our decisions about how to live our lives, not an arbitrary picking and choosing by a blindfolded God.

It’s not a need to mention faith, it’s a recognition faith is not mentioned in a teaching devoted entirely to works

The parables prior are warnings of not being prepared; they are contrasts to those who accepted the gospel and those who did not; the ones who were righteous and those who are not.

That’s another opinion you can’t show me in Scripture. In your entire analysis of Mt. 25 31-46 have gone outside of the Scripture you say you revere and supplied a man-made definition designed to support a 16th Century heresy. It’s a massaging of the text to make it say what you want it to say. It’s fundamentally dishonest and a certain road to perdition.

i do not think we have much more to talk about here; you do not understand you own Church’s teaching and nor do you understand the Word of God, so it make any discussion on the things of God impossible. So I wish you all the best.

If we have nothing more to say it won’t be because I don’t understand the teachings of my Church. It will be because you are unwilling to confront the truth of the Gospel message and would prefer to end the discussion than have your opinions proven wrong.

Happy Easter.

 

[qui_est_ce]

You are ignorant of your own church’s teaching; I am not. Go to the Catholic encyclopedia and type in Christian worship and not only do you worship Mary, but statues and relics are also okay to worship. I have studied your church and have read the CCC at least 3 times in the past 6 months and a plethora of other information.

Just so you know, there are many Catholics who rightly say they do worship Mary of the Church.

You are ignorant of your own church’s teaching; I am not. Go to the Catholic encyclopedia and type in Christian worship and not only do you worship Mary, but statues and relics are also okay to worship. I have studied your church and have read the CCC at least 3 times in the past 6 months and a plethora of other information.{?QUOTE]
I’ve been a Catholic for a very long and am quite sure of what my Church teaches thank you. I’m also quite sure you have no idea what my Church teaches and have made for yourself a list of opinions, buttressed by a willing inability to understand what you read, to support your prejudices.

I don’t know of any and, absenting documentation of your allegation, I deny it. Do you really think you can say whatever you please and have rational people believe it? If you have found such people, they are as ignorant of Catholic teaching as you are.

I just can’t stand it when someone attacks my Holy Mother Church with such lies.

Holy Mary, mother of God, protect us from the Evil One.

 

[ALLGIRLS]

I have a question (off topic for the original purpose of the thread, but related to the Predestination/Calvinism tangent):

Why do Calvinists like Master’s Servent bother to evangelize? If his doctrine is true, the elect are going to heaven no matter what, and the damned are going to hell no matter what, so who cares what church, if any, or what beliefs, if any, they hold, since God already decided all that before the foundation of the world? In fact, it seems kind of mean, witnessing to somehow, leading them to believe they are “saved”, so they then spend their whole lives worshiping God, reading the Bible, doing God’s work, etc., expecting to be with Christ in heaven when they die, only to be cast off into hell because it turns out they weren’t one of the “elect”.

If God already decided it all, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, why not let people just live however they want?

In Christ,

Ellen

 

[vickimonica]

there seems to have been a lot of “ink” on previous posts pertaining to whether or not “veneration” means the same thing as “worship.” without even looking up definitions of the words in a dictionary to see if they are synonyms, i will simply relate something from my own personal experience. I was a “born again” protestant for sixty years and came into the catholic faith five years ago through a series of unexpected events. One of my christian co-workers at the time seemed very upset with me and asked me why catholics “worship” mary. I could not have answered the question a year earlier, but i did answer him by saying, “charles, don’t you love your mother.” naturally, he could not deny that he didn’t love his own mother dearly. I next asked, “don’t you believe that jesus is god?” again, “yes, of course,” charles responded. Then i asked, “wasn’t mary the mother of jesus?” charles again replied in the affirmative that, indeed, mary was the mother of jesus. “then”, charles, “doesn’t it follow that if mary is the mother of jesus, and jesus is god, that mary is the mother of god?” if you love your own mother, how could you possible find it in your heart not to love the mother of your risen saviour? And to love mary is, to me, to venerate her, to thank her for saying “yes.” i do not worship mary because to my way of thinking worship belongs exclusively to my lord. As a former protestant, another thing i could not understand was the presence of statues, but now i understand perfectly. Once again, they are not there for worship, at least not from where i stand. They are there to remind us of all those who gave up their lives for the sake of the church and, hopefully, to instill in ourselves the same kind of love and devotion. In summary, i personally see a distinct difference in veneration and worship notwithstanding what some dictionary might suggest otherwise. So there you have it. Just one man’s opinion, thank you.

well said my friend!!

 

[Holly3278]

I think that you will find that it depends on the particular type of Baptists that you are talking about. Most Baptists don’t like Catholicism but don’t actively speak out against it. However, there are some Baptists known as independent fundamentalist Baptists who will often refer to Catholicism as the “Whore of Babylon”. I know this as I used to be a Southern Baptist and I went to an independent fundamentalist Baptist church from time to time as well.

 

[7_Sorrows]

What decisions? according to TULIP we make no decisions concerning God. God either chooses us or he doesnt.

In your understanding of God he will punish for all eternity, people, who were never capable of being anything other that what they are. Imagine I hate cats, so I decide to breed cats so that I can torture them. why would I do that? because they are cats! If I did that you would no doubt think I was a sick individual yet You think God does the for all eternity.

Do I believe all people are saved? I believe all are given a measure of faith an opportunity and ability given by God to seek Him. When I read the entire Bible I see God giving man the opportunity to follow after Him and He pleads with them to CHOOSE life.

i agree with your feelings about TULIP. i listened to 5 or 6 weeks of sermons on TULIP and read the material given and it was very depressing. it really messed with my mind.
that is not how i understand God and salvation at all.

the people who attended that church which leaned heavily towards calvinism seemed to not have much peace and were trying to prove and really work at being in the group that God will save, but inside, not really being sure. the pastor had a lot of control over them.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

I have a question (off topic for the original purpose of the thread, but related to the Predestination/Calvinism tangent):

Why do Calvinists like Master’s Servent bother to evangelize? If his doctrine is true, the elect are going to heaven no matter what, and the damned are going to hell no matter what, so who cares what church, if any, or what beliefs, if any, they hold, since God already decided all that before the foundation of the world? In fact, it seems kind of mean, witnessing to somehow, leading them to believe they are “saved”, so they then spend their whole lives worshiping God, reading the Bible, doing God’s work, etc., expecting to be with Christ in heaven when they die, only to be cast off into hell because it turns out they weren’t one of the “elect”.

If God already decided it all, and there’s nothing anyone can do about it, why not let people just live however they want?

In Christ,

Ellen

You beat me to it… and took the words right out of my mouth.
Great post.

Matthew

 

[maggiedoc]

7 Sorrows stated that a baptist friend was surprised to learn that the Catholic Bible contains more books than the protestant King James Bible. Would she be interested to know that the original authorised King James Bible contained all the books that Catholics still retain?

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

i agree with your feelings about TULIP. i listened to 5 or 6 weeks of sermons on TULIP and read the material given and it was very depressing. it really messed with my mind.
that is not how i understand God and salvation at all.

the people who attended that church which leaned heavily towards calvinism seemed to not have much peace and were trying to prove and really work at being in the group that God will save, but inside, not really being sure. the pastor had a lot of control over them.

yes they believe the same God who said, “forgive them for they know not what they do” will punish for eternity those who did nothing other that be the only way they could be.

 

[greggy53]

7 Sorrows stated that a baptist friend was surprised to learn that the Catholic Bible contains more books than the protestant King James Bible. Would she be interested to know that the original authorised King James Bible contained all the books that Catholics still retain?

Yes that is true I have one a KJV family bible printed in 1876. Some one told me on another thread that some Protestant book publishing council decided to remove them to save money on paper and ink in the late 19th century.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Yes that is true I have one a KJV family bible printed in 1876. Some one told me on another thread that some Protestant book publishing council decided to remove them to save money on paper and ink in the late 19th century.

I don’t think so. Any publisher who did that wouldn’t be in business for very long. The books were removed because they support Catholic teaching on several points of doctrine. The KJV theologians wanted to conform to Luther’s version and not the Catholic version of Scripture.

 

[greggy53]

I don’t think so. Any publisher who did that wouldn’t be in business for very long. The books were removed because they support Catholic teaching on several points of doctrine. The KJV theologians wanted to conform to Luther’s version and not the Catholic version of Scripture.

Well the individual seem very knowledgeable and went into detail and it made sense to me. My 1876 KJV has a total of 15 books contained in the “Apocrypha” section. These included the 7 Deuterocanical books. When my father presented me with his grandfathers family bible I was quite surprised to find the Apocrypha in it. It was in it’s own section with other “inspirational” books. My great grandfather was Anglican. Most Protestants that I have spoken with insist that the 7 Deuterocanical books were added by the Catholics aft the council of Trent. This is what they have been taught and are skeptical when I point out that those 7 books have been included in every Catholic Bible since 387 AD.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Well the individual seem very knowledgeable and went into detail and it made sense to me. My 1876 KJV has a total of 15 books contained in the “Apocrypha” section. These included the 7 Deuterocanical books.

I didn’t know that. I thought it was just the seven. I still find it hard to believe a reputable publisher would delete whole books from something as iconic as the Bible just to save money on paper and ink, but I guess anything’s possible. Maybe the publisher wasn’t reputable.