What do Catholics and Protestants have in common that makes us family?

[eternalstudent]

JonNC;10083476:

Hi, Jon…I thought Luther was initially ignored too. wasn’t he? That is what radicalized him?

They couldn’t ignore Luther because he was affecting the economics of the church.

 

[CMatt25]

Leviticus 20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

That verse seems pretty clear to me, 2 men that lie down together as 1 man and 1 woman, geee what could they possibly be doing?

It seems that you are using a very legalistic approach to this issue, that since in the Bible you cannot find the word “homosexual relation” therefore you deduce that the Bible is silent on the subject.

The epitome of “what is the definition of IS is”

I’ll pray that when you do eventually have to face the supreme judge He shows you the same professional courtesy.

I understand it is very clear to you and to those who share your beliefs. And I know the more conservative Christians including Catholics like to quote such verses in trying to make their case. But here’s the problem. One could also quote Scripture in support of slavery, women remaining silent in churches, in support of stonings. In a number of other things.

Over time however many Christians have come to reject such literal interpretations for an interpretation more in line with the Bible’s core values of compassion, justice and peace. In time this may occur more and more in regard to homosexuality and SS marriage and unions. This movement away from the literal and to a different understanding has already been going on in some of the more mainline to liberal Christian denominations.

Each of us in faith will face He Who knows our hearts. And I shall pray all of His children walk their journeys with Him in peace. Peace be with you.

 

[SteveVH]

I understand it is very clear to you and to those who share your beliefs. And I know the more conservative Christians including Catholics like to quote such verses in trying to make their case. But here’s the problem. One could also quote Scripture in support of slavery, women remaining silent in churches, in support of stonings. In a number of other things.

Over time however many Christians have come to reject such literal interpretations for an interpretation more in line with the Bible’s core values of compassion, justice and peace. In time this may occur more and more in regard to homosexuality and SS marriage and unions. This movement away from the literal and to a different understanding has already been going on in some of the more mainline to liberal Christian denominations.

Each of us in faith will face He Who knows our hearts. And I shall pray all of His children walk their journeys with Him in peace. Peace be with you.

 

[JonNC]

Hi, Jon…I thought Luther was initially ignored too. wasn’t he? That is what radicalized him?

That’s not my understanding. Luther posted his 95 Theses in 1517, and Exsurge Domine was issued in 1520, followed by the Diet of Worms in 1521. Considering the times, that’s not much more than immediate.

Regarding “radicalized”, I guess it depends on what you mean. ISTM that by protestant standards, even then but especially now, he was rather conservative - the real presence, baptismal regeneration, confession, to name a few.

Jon

 

[SteveVH]

Over time however many Christians have come to reject such literal interpretations for an interpretation more in line with the Bible’s core values of compassion, justice and peace.

On what authority do they make such judgments? Are these judgments infallible or do you believe they could be wrong? The Catholic Church was given the authority to bind and loose, not every “Christian” who chooses to tolerate sin in the name of compassion, justice and peace.

In time this may occur more and more in regard to homosexuality and SS marriage and unions. This movement away from the literal and to a different understanding has already been going on in some of the more mainline to liberal Christian denominations.

Yes, and many are running away from those faith traditions for that very reason. Just take a look at the Episcopalians. This issue continues to divide their own community.

 

[Carlan]

Please…by such a reasoning, we’d be stoning a lot of different people all the time…Christ was very, very clear.

“In the beginning it was not so”.

Now what was this beginning? Well, we know from the gospel of St. John:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Thus, as Christ speaks of the beginning, He truly speaks of God’s original will for man.

And what does He say?

This is Matrimony in the eyes of God. Anything else is abomination, unless it was permitted by God himself for mysterious reasons that we neither know nor should really care about. We focus on the New Covenant under the teachings of Christ, and that is what makes us Christian. To go and interpret the Scriptures individually and craft our own doctrine, that is what can make us heretics, regardless of the community we belong to.

I do like your original question. Truly, all Christians validly baptized share a common brotherhood in Christ, though those who have walked away from the Church are not in full communion and bound by divine will to either move towards universal unity of the one Church (Mt 16:18, Mt 7:24-25, Jn 17, 1 Cor, Eph, Col) or to be scattered and divided ad infinitum (Mt 21:44, Mt 7:26-27).

The Catholic Church has been actively working towards the unity of all Christians, a process called ecumenism which is willed by God Himself. You can read more about this in the decree Unitatis Redintegratio, a worthy reading to understand just how much the Catholic Church has been working for the past decades towards finding and emphasizing our common ground with the communities who at one time or another distanced themselves from the Church, and above all else emphasizing that those who at the present time are born into those communities did not truly choose to leave the Catholic Church.

:thumbsup:Good post R-C,The Church through out the world prays daily for the unity of Christ’s flock.
Peace, Carlan

 

[pablope]

Hi, ES…you mean this one…from the Bible… Samuel 15:22-23
22 But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

So it does not apply anymore now? What it says has no meaning even to this very day? to each and everyone of us who reads this passage?

And can you explain what you mean the Church was misguided? How was it misguided and in what sense?

I believe that Luther may have submitted to the church in time but it took
centuries for the church to officially admit their mistake.

Well, if Luther submitted, there would be no protestantism…would it not? There would be no protestant bible…different beliefs on the Real presence, baptism, the sacraments…etc.

And besides, it did not take centuries for the Church to reform and admit its mistake…the Council of Trent reformed the abuses of what Luther was complaining about.

 

[CMatt25]

On what authority do they make such judgments? Are these judgments infallible or do you believe they could be wrong? The Catholic Church was given the authority to bind and loose, not every “Christian” who chooses to tolerate sin in the name of compassion, justice and peace.

Yes, and many are running away from those faith traditions for that very reason. Just take a look at the Episcopalians. This issue continues to divide their own community.

I am going to guess on the authority of God and His Holy Spirit based on their faith in and understanding of Him. I say this only because I once had an Episcopal priest who left the Roman Catholic priesthood tell me if I listened to God’s Spirit, He would tell me where He wanted me to be. I believe anyone may believe they know but anyone with a finite human mind can be wrong. I understand you believe as you do about authority and you place your faith in the Catholic Church.

I see some running away. Over time I’ve seen some running to. Given though that Jesus spoke of few entering and that I don’t know precisely or what exactly He meant by “few”, who’s up and who’s down at any given moment in time is not something I spend much time dwelling on. But in the case of Episcopalians I sadly see division in some places. And in other places such as in the Episcopal diocese where I live, I have been told there has been little dissension and no exodus of churches whatsoever. I know of 2 Episcopal priests in my area who were Roman Catholics. The one I mentioned above who was a Roman priest before leaving for the Episcopal Church. And the other, also a Catholic who later became an Episcopal priest, shared with me this story: Yrs ago she was approached by a man who disapproved of Bishop Gene Robinson. She asked the man if he believed in God and in Jesus. When the man said yes, she said so do I. So just because we disagree on homosexuality does not mean we can not be part of the same worshiping family. The man she said has never missed a Sunday since.

Obviously with no agreement among Christians and other people of faith on every single dotted “i” and crossed “t”, someone is going to be wrong about some matters of faith. And it’s not relativism when people of faith have differing beliefs on ultimate truth but merely a fact of life and a fact of faith. But something I learned the Disciples of Christ denomination professes rings true. Christians are united in the One most important of all. He Who breaks down walls: Christ as our Lord and Savior. :grouphug:

May He bless you along your faith walk. And I pray the same for all who journey in faith. Peace…

 

[Carlan]

I would just say, in Catholic answer forums we Catholics testify to the Truth of Christ who commissioned his twelve apostles to teach his Truth.
After his last Apostle John died the authority was handed on to the following Bishops and so on down to our present day.
That authority the Church calls the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church.
We Christians must be obedient to that authority for it is truly obedience to Christ the head of His body the Church.

We learn from the Old Testamemt that we must not lean on our own understanding.
We thank God the Holy Spirit for His ever presence guiding us on through the Body of Christ his Church.
Peace, Carlan

 

[CMatt25]

I would just say, in Catholic answer forums we Catholics testify to the Truth of Christ who commissioned his twelve apostles to teach his Truth.
After his last Apostle John died the authority was handed on to the following Bishops and so on down to our present day.
That authority the Church calls the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church.
We Christians must be obedient to that authority for it is truly obedience to Christ the head of His body the Church.

We learn from the Old Testamemt that we must not lean on our own understanding.
We thank God the Holy Spirit for His ever presence guiding us on through the Body of Christ his Church.
Peace, Carlan

Hi Carlan, I understand what you are saying except I’ve seen for instance Catholics who from what I can tell are otherwise more or less seemingly rather faithful Catholics, going against your church’s testimony and teaching on who can consider themselves Catholics. They falsely tell baptized and confirmed dissenting or non practicing Catholics they are not or can not consider themselves Catholic. Or say Catholics can not vote in a secular election in such and such a way and be Catholic. So in that sense I see division even among the otherwise Catholic faithful too. I think when a Catholic tells a baptized/confirmed Catholic, though perhaps a less faithful Catholic, that they are not Catholic or can not use the term in any way to describe themselves, it could risk driving the less faithful even further away. But in any case I wish you a blessed Advent and Christmas season my friend. And His peace be with you always as well.

 

[eternalstudent]

Hello pablope,

Thanks for taking the time to share and respond to my post.

In answer to your questions:

1. Of course it applies now. I was making a point that not only was Luther out of line but certain individuals of the church were acting improperly on the issue of buying indulgences which was brought about by the need to fund the churches building project(s), etc…
2. Of course it has meaning and applies to this day as well as the future.
3. The individuals in the church were misguided. Certainly God and His church are perfect.
4. If Luther had submitted when would the individuals who were misguided change the indulgences policy? My simple point was that initially Luther was doing good to reform this error regarding indulgences and as you point out the church agrees with that point as you point out at the Council of Trent. You are right it did not take centuries. In my memory I confused 2 other events where the church took centuries to make an official statement. One was the apology that Pope John Paul II made in the year 2000 regarding how the church treated Galileo and the other was concerning The Knights Templar. Sorry for my lapse in memory. As I get older I will have to try and remember to not rely on my memory.
   (I better write that down)

Anyway - I have probably contributed to getting this thread off track. The original question was - What do Catholics and Protestants have in common that makes us family?

1. We have the same idea about indulgences (at least Lutherans and Catholics do)
2. We both look to God for our guidance and strength
3. I believe all good Protestants and Catholics try to love and serve God as witnessed by the many good works that both groups have sponsored throughout the world - Missionaries, feeding the hungary, etc…

Maybe you have some ideas to add

Thanks again for your time and (name removed by moderator)ut

ES

 

[pablope]

Hello pablope,

1. Of course it applies now. I was making a point that not only was Luther out of line but certain individuals of the church were acting improperly on the issue of buying indulgences which was brought about by the need to fund the churches building project(s), etc…

Let clear some misconceptions of yours…the CC never sold indulgences during the time of Luther…nor it has ever taught that indulgences are to be sold. The issue at Luther’s time was the donation given for a building project, an indulgence was granted due to that donation…which was abused.

What do you think Jesus would have told Luther to do with those certain individuals…to pray for them so that they will correct realize their mistakes and make corrections?

Or cause a rebellion and split the Body of Christ…split the altars of sacrifice?

1. If Luther had submitted when would the individuals who were misguided change the indulgences policy?

By continued prayers, humility…continued trust in the Holy Spirit…just as what Catherine of Sienna did…those individuals would have reformed. It is God’s to decide when to move…not for us to take matters in our own hands and disobey and cause a split.

Remember that passage…To obey is better than sacrifice,and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

 

[mlz]

Our baptism in Christ
mlz

 

[tarboy]

Let clear some misconceptions of yours…the CC never sold indulgences during the time of Luther…nor it has ever taught that indulgences are to be sold. The issue at Luther’s time was the donation given for a building project, an indulgence was granted due to that donation…which was abused.

.

Now you play word games that would make Bill Clinton proud.
Money was given and indulgences were provided.
While there was no price list, I expect the involved parties had discussions about what size donation might yield a certain indulgence.

 

[Carlan]

Hi Carlan, I understand what you are saying except I’ve seen for instance Catholics who from what I can tell are otherwise more or less seemingly rather faithful Catholics, going against your church’s testimony and teaching on who can consider themselves Catholics.

7They falsely tell baptized and confirmed dissenting or non practicing Catholics they are not or can not consider themselves Catholic. Or say Catholics can not vote in a secular election in such and such a way and be Catholic So in that sense I see division even among the otherwise Catholic faithful too. I think when a Catholic tells a baptized/confirmed Catholic, though perhaps a less faithful Catholic, that they are not Catholic or can not use the term in any way to describe themselves, it could risk driving the less faithful even further away.

Dear Matt, I do agree with you on these pointsl. We are all sinners and fall short of the
Glory of God. Mea culpa,mea culpa ,mea maxima culpa. So we pray for the contunued enlightenment of all us.
Thank you Matt, I wish you also a blessed Advent and Christmas time and peace be with you always also. Carlan

 

[SonCatcher]

If you’re implying all SDA Christians who do not eat pork and shellfish are vegetarians and do not eat beef or lamb you are mistaken.

Seventh-Day Adventists ARE vegetarians, as a rule (I used to live near the SDA capital of the West Coast). They make exceptions for converts out of charity.

No it only lacks the understanding of Scripture as you and your faith understands it to be. God’s blessings along your faith journey. Peace

Proper understanding of Scripture requires an authoritative interpreter, which they lack. (2 Peter 1:20)

 

[JonNC]

=pablope;10085123]
Well, if Luther submitted, there would be no protestantism…would it not? There would be no protestant bible…different beliefs on the Real presence, baptism, the sacraments…etc.

This presumes, Pablo, that Zwingli, and Calvin, and the Anabaptists, et al. only did what they did because of Luther. I see no evidience of that. In fact, with the Anabaptists, they generally had no connection to Luther.

And besides, it did not take centuries for the Church to reform and admit its mistake…the Council of Trent reformed the abuses of what Luther was complaining about.

The sad part was that it happened after Luther’s death, and the Lutherans were ostensibly invited… well, let’s just say they were not sure how “warm” their welcome would be.

Jon

 

[CMatt25]

Seventh-Day Adventists ARE vegetarians, as a rule (I used to live near the SDA capital of the West Coast). They make exceptions for converts out of charity.

Proper understanding of Scripture requires an authoritative interpreter, which they lack. (2 Peter 1:20)

Ok I’ll be sure to tell my practicing SDA friend, a lifelong SDA who lives near SDA world headquarters in Silver Spring MD, who is not a convert, who graduated from an SDA college, who is not a vegetarian, neither was her SDA mother, that you said so.

2 Peter 1:20 “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.”

No prophet found in Scripture did his own interpretation. They spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

 

[SonCatcher]

Ok I’ll be sure to tell my practicing SDA friend, a lifelong SDA who lives near SDA world headquarters in Silver Spring MD, who is not a convert, who graduated from an SDA college, who is not a vegetarian, neither was her SDA mother, that you said so.

Maybe they had a schism or something. I just know your friends would have a hard time finding meat at the SDA-run supermarket and cafeteria in Loma Linda. There are, however, plenty of meat-like products made solely out of vegetable material (a number of them are really good - better even than the faux meats available everywhere else - but I prefer my vegetarian meals to be honestly so).

2 Peter 1:20 “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.”

No prophet found in Scripture did his own interpretation. They spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

Peter was meaning that a person cannot interpret Scripture him/herself for his/her own purposes.

 

[Todd_Martin]

I believe Catholics and Protestants are siblings in Christ. I am your separated brethren according to the CCC. What do we have in common that makes us family?

Some of the best answers have already been posted, but I’ll add some antecdots to the mix. It seems in some cases in our modern society that certain Catholics and Protestants are more united with each other than with their own kind.

I take as an example the defense of human life or birth control. There are many examples of Catholic politicians who have less in common with Catholics than Protestants.
I think Christians should emphasize basic Nicean Christianity at every opportunity. As they say K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid)

The church is under attack from all angles, Islam on the right, insane leftism on the left and general apothy and schism from within.