What do Catholics here think of this?

[buffalo]

From Liberalism is a Sin

This book shows that Liberalism—at least here in America—is all-pervasive and is almost, as it were, universally victorious over the thinking of our people. Yet as a religious—philosophical tenet it is false! And woefully so! For, as the author points out, it leads to an eventual denial of any truth whatsoever by some of its adherents. For people hear first one religious “truth” asserted and then another that contradicts it, and soon they are so confused that they do not know what to believe. And often they end up believing nothing—or holding that nothing is certain, even in matters relating to the Natural Law, which all people know through the use of their reason alone.

Regarding its source, Liberalism, as the author shows very clearly, is a direct result of Protestantism, with its tenet of private interpretation of the Bible. For if a person has a right to decide for himself what the Bible means, this says in effect that he has a right to choose whether he will believe or not believe certain revealed teachings. Then in effect, he also has a right to believe nothing at all. Whereas the correct view is that when the mind of man sees the divinely revealed truth, he has NO CHOICE, morally speaking, to reject it. Its obvious truth requires that he must accept it as true.

 

[Darrel]

Stingray:

I’m more interested in the statement that the reason why America is in shambles is because of the protestants. No one has really commented on that. So, should I assume you all agree? Are protestants really to blame for the moral problems of America?

I will answer you

I dont think that protestants are responsible for our countries moral decline. I think that in America people have been taught that being a low life is there God given right as an American. I will say however that the protestant Church is responsible for dividing Gods children upon the face of the Earth (which is worse?). In my own personal experience I found Christianity to be confusing and I was never certain I was in the right church. I thank God that he showed me the truth.

-D

 

[adnauseum]

Genesis315:

I blame modernism and naturalism. Unfortunately, Protestant churches bought into it in the 1930s when they began accepting birth control. Contraception led to the “sexual revolution” and here we are today.

Ditto to you. Good post.

It’s a shame that the conservative protestants sort of overlap with the anti-Catholic crowd. They could have been great allies, but they alienate themselves from the Church, so they’re out there trying to defend traditional values without the beautiful and deep resources of Church tradition.

For example, the Catholic Church has a principled, coherent basis for opposing gay marriage (natural law that the role of marriage is procreation and education of children). Protestants have some stock anti-homosexuality bible verses that are no longer persuasive in a godless world, so they have zero chance of changing hearts and minds which is the only way to change the world.

 

[Little_Mary]

Stingray:

I’m more interested in the statement that the reason why America is in shambles is because of the protestants. No one has really commented on that. So, should I assume you all agree? Are protestants really to blame for the moral problems of America?

I can’t speak for everyone here but to a certain extent I think that’s true. Previous posts have pointed to the acceptance of contraception and some P churches accept abortion. It certainly feeds the fire anyway.

IMHO, it is primarily Satan (who just Loves the division in the Protestant churches and the fact that all those protestants stay away from the One True Church). Combine that with our human weaknesses (regardless of religious beliefs) and, where it applies, the fact that our lack of closeness to God (nominal spiritual life, prayer life) makes us even weaker. As far as numbing our shock value, the media is the worst.

 

[Tietjen]

Stingray:

I’m more interested in the statement that the reason why America is in shambles is because of the protestants. No one has really commented on that. So, should I assume you all agree? Are protestants really to blame for the moral problems of America?

I say no. Protestants aren’t to blame for the condition of America today. That’s not to say that I agree with Protestants on issues that separate them from the Catholic Church, but rather the condition of America today is the fault of ALL Americans and should not be lumped on one people based on denomination or religion. Protestants, like Catholics, have morals and are attacked by groups such as the ACLU, Moveon.org, etc. America is the way it is today because by enlarge; people (without God) have turned to secularism and see truth as being relative. People today view political correctness above morality. Issues such as gay-marriage and abortion wouldn’t have become “society norms” 100 years ago. Today, we are moving in that direction and have been for the last 60 years. America is the way it is today not because of ANY particular religion’s faith in God but rather the lack of faith and obedience in and to God.

 

[Tlaloc]

buffalo:

For, as the author points out, it leads to an eventual denial of any truth whatsoever by some of its adherents. For people hear first one religious “truth” asserted and then another that contradicts it, and soon they are so confused that they do not know what to believe. And often they end up believing nothing—or holding that nothing is certain, even in matters relating to the Natural Law, which all people know through the use of their reason alone.

You seem to find relativism quite threatening. Really it’s a pretty logical consequence for anyone who doesn’t ascribe to the idea of a moral omniscient comprehensible god.

 

[Tlaloc]

buffalo:

For, as the author points out, it leads to an eventual denial of any truth whatsoever by some of its adherents. For people hear first one religious “truth” asserted and then another that contradicts it, and soon they are so confused that they do not know what to believe. And often they end up believing nothing—or holding that nothing is certain, even in matters relating to the Natural Law, which all people know through the use of their reason alone.

You seem to find relativism quite threatening. Really it’s a pretty logical consequence for anyone who doesn’t ascribe to the idea of a moral omniscient comprehensible god.

 

[buffalo]

Tlaloc:

You seem to find relativism quite threatening. Really it’s a pretty logical consequence for anyone who doesn’t ascribe to the idea of a moral omniscient comprehensible god.

Bingo! Moral relativism is threatening as your truth can be different than my truth. All truths are OK, which by itself is opposed.

My (not really mine) truth says I have a right to take your life because of the comment you just made. What does your truth say?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

buffalo:

From Liberalism is a Sin

This book shows that Liberalism—at least here in America—is all-pervasive and is almost, as it were, universally victorious over the thinking of our people. Yet as a religious—philosophical tenet it is false! And woefully so! For, as the author points out, it leads to an eventual denial of any truth whatsoever by some of its adherents. For people hear first one religious “truth” asserted and then another that contradicts it, and soon they are so confused that they do not know what to believe. And often they end up believing nothing—or holding that nothing is certain, even in matters relating to the Natural Law, which all people know through the use of their reason alone.

Regarding its source, Liberalism, as the author shows very clearly, is a direct result of Protestantism, with its tenet of private interpretation of the Bible. For if a person has a right to decide for himself what the Bible means, this says in effect that he has a right to choose whether he will believe or not believe certain revealed teachings. Then in effect, he also has a right to believe nothing at all. Whereas the correct view is that when the mind of man sees the divinely revealed truth, he has NO CHOICE, morally speaking, to reject it. Its obvious truth requires that he must accept it as true.

## The author displays no understanding at all of Protestantism. And he makes no attempt to distinguish between very different types of liberalism, some of which are wholly compatible with the strictest of Catholic doctrinal orthodoxy.

---

**If he wanted to change people’s minds, he should have been more gracious, instead of doing nothing but denounce. **
But then, as Spain in 1886 was virtually free of Protestants, it’s unsurprising that he had no understanding of it.
** **I suspect that what he was so bothered about, is secularism (a word seldom used on CAF, it seems - yet it would be far more appropriate than “liberalism”). **

---

**Not everyone who understands Catholicism, loves it; let alone recognising it as being what it claims to be. And plenty of people don’t understand it. Matters are complicated by the fact that Catholicism has a history - and in many respects it is a far from morally attractive history. **

---

**So people who are not Catholics, are not being perverse: they are making decisions based on what they know and understand - just as we all do; indeed, must do. And if the Catholicism they have experienced is morally superficial, superstitious, unrelated to Scripture, cruel, and arrogant, it is doing itself no favours at all. Their refusal to embrace it, may very well be a wise and morally-concerned decision. IOW, it may be because they are seeking to obey the light that God gives them, that they turn from Catholicism in disgust at its lack of any truly Christian character - so far as they have experienced it - and continue as faithful Protestants. **

---

In obeying their consciences, they are acting exactly as they ought to. We are obliged by conscience not to become Catholics, if we do not sincerely believe it is what it claims to be. To become Catholic while not believing the CC’s claims, would be frivolous and wrong. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Tietjen:

I say no. Protestants aren’t to blame for the condition of America today. That’s not to say that I agree with Protestants on issues that separate them from the Catholic Church, but rather the condition of America today is the fault of ALL Americans and should not be lumped on one people based on denomination or religion. Protestants, like Catholics, have morals and are attacked by groups such as the ACLU, Moveon.org, etc. America is the way it is today because by enlarge; people (without God) have turned to secularism and see truth as being relative. People today view political correctness above morality. Issues such as gay-marriage and abortion wouldn’t have become “society norms” 100 years ago. Today, we are moving in that direction and have been for the last 60 years. America is the way it is today not because of ANY particular religion’s faith in God but rather the lack of faith and obedience in and to God.

## Blaming single groups for all current woes, is no different from blaming the Jews for the woes of Germany 80 years ago. It leads in the end to murder; even to genocide. Let’s not go there.

---

People are the problem - not Jews, gays, blacks, liberals, Protestants, the UN, the Masons, the Democrats, neo-cons, etc., but people. And people are stupid, vicious, selfish, envious, aggressive, lustful, ignorant, violent, criel, dishonest, bigoted, gullible, deceitful, and a lot of other things. Even in the US. So not surprisingly, the US is going to have a lot of problems. Countries would be wonderful, if it were not for the people in them. But there are people in them, and people are not replicas of each other - so there are social problems, lots of them; always have been; and always will be. Even if there were no Protestants, Jews, etc., in the entire universe. ##

 

[michaelp]

Tlaloc:

You seem to find relativism quite threatening. Really it’s a pretty logical consequence for anyone who doesn’t ascribe to the idea of a moral omniscient comprehensible god.

That is right. It is actually the ONLY logical option. I am glad to hear you admit this Tlaloc. At least your worldview is coherent. I do appreciate that.

Michael

 

[Tlaloc]

buffalo:

Bingo! Moral relativism is threatening as your truth can be different than my truth. All truths are OK, which by itself is opposed.

My (not really mine) truth says I have a right to take your life because of the comment you just made. What does your truth say?

That I should try and stop you. Personal truths conflict all the time, but so long as we take a process rather than results view of things that’s just fine.

 

[Tlaloc]

michaelp:

That is right. It is actually the ONLY logical option. I am glad to hear you admit this Tlaloc. At least your worldview is coherent. I do appreciate that.

Michael

I wouldn’t say it’s the only logical view. If one does believe in a moral omniscient god that can be understood by people then it would be logical to follow that morality.

Personally I don’t believe in such for a number of reasons, hence I developed a personal theory of anarchism based on relativism.

 

[Tietjen]

## Blaming single groups for all current woes, is no different from blaming the Jews for the woes of Germany 80 years ago. It leads in the end to murder; even to genocide. Let’s not go there.

People are the problem - not Jews, gays, blacks, liberals, Protestants, the UN, the Masons, the Democrats, neo-cons, etc., but people. And people are stupid, vicious, selfish, envious, aggressive, lustful, ignorant, violent, criel, dishonest, bigoted, gullible, deceitful, and a lot of other things. Even in the US. So not surprisingly, the US is going to have a lot of problems. Countries would be wonderful, if it were not for the people in them. But there are people in them, and people are not replicas of each other - so there are social problems, lots of them; always have been; and always will be. Even if there were no Protestants, Jews, etc., in the entire universe. ##

I would agree and that is why I DIDN’T single out a single group. It’s neither Protestant nor Jew nor Catholic. Rather it is all those who oppose morality (regardless of race, religion, political position, or affiliation) over political correctness. Many in the society today fear being labeled “intolerant” so they sit back and do nothing as moral decay spreads. Of course not all are guilty, but rather society in general. I commend those that take up the banner against abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, etc. Eventually, morality will prevail; I just hope that I will be around when it does.http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Investigate.gif

 

[TheGarg]

Tantum ergo:

Garg, I think Darrel is referring, not to “Rome” as in Roman Catholic Church, but to the fall of Rome in the 5th century–you know, Attila the Hun, the beginning of the Dark Ages, etc. Cf. Gibbons’ “The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire”. . .

Ahhhhhh!!! sorry, im not that quick lol…

my apologies darrel

 

[Catholic_Dude]

What I said this and nobody told me that this thread existed?
These words should be trumpeted all over to get people to wake up.

I stand by my words.
Protestantism is the reason why America is in shambles, especially because of divorce.

They divided the family. As a result father against son, mother against daughter, etc. No respect for elders/grandparents. This step mothers, step dads, half this and half that, etc sickening. They turned marriage into a love connection and not a commitment. There isnt much that needs to defended its out in the open, all of it. There are “pastors” out there who have no problem allowing multiple marriages for people. They desecrate the sacred words of consecration and commitment. There is no hiding this fact.

I could go on and on about how one prot group opening the door to one immoral act and having the others follow. Especially when people make themselves their own pastor and marry others. Scary stuff. Protestants are the original liberals.

 

[Darrel]

TheGarg:

Ahhhhhh!!! sorry, im not that quick lol…

my apologies darrel

hehe,

Not a problem my friend.

-D

 

[Darrel]

Catholic Dude:

What I said this and nobody told me that this thread existed?
These words should be trumpeted all over to get people to wake up.

I stand by my words.
Protestantism is the reason why America is in shambles, especially because of divorce.

They divided the family. As a result father against son, mother against daughter, etc. No respect for elders/grandparents. This step mothers, step dads, half this and half that, etc sickening. They turned marriage into a love connection and not a commitment. There isnt much that needs to defended its out in the open, all of it. There are “pastors” out there who have no problem allowing multiple marriages for people. They desecrate the sacred words of consecration and commitment. There is no hiding this fact.

I could go on and on about how one prot group opening the door to one immoral act and having the others follow. Especially when people make themselves their own pastor and marry others. Scary stuff. Protestants are the original liberals.

I don’t disagree with this idea per say and I am certainly open to learning something new. But I think that perhaps this idea operates under the fundamental assumption that all education comes from the Church.

I feel that the masses are very much educated by the media. Not to mention the fact that there are millions of people in this country who are not Christians like Muslims or Atheist or whatever. Given that fact does it not make sense that some of the problem is attributed to things like the general philosophy I mentioned earlier?

To say that right and wrong is black and white is not considered politically correct in this day and age. To say that homosexuality is wrong is considered intolerance along with abortion and swinger lifestyles that are all abominous examples. Can all of this be blamed on the protestant church? I think the devil can easily function through the media and television and adult education.

This philosophy of open ended morality doesn’t sound totally protestant to me it sounds more like a generally Godless society that says anything goes. I am the first person on Earth at this point in my walk with Christ to defend the Catholic Church against protestant attack but I can not believe that they are totaly responsible for the entire United States with over 200,000,000 people living in it being in a state of moral decay. I need a string of reliable historic facts that includes all Amercan non Christian citizens and some evidence that people are only moraly affected by the Church.

-D

 

[bengal_fan]

I stand by my words.
Protestantism is the reason why America is in shambles, especially because of divorce.
.

i would say though, that it is WAAAYYY too easy to get an annulment and the effects are still the same (steps, halfs, joint-custody, child support, etc.). maybe some protestants were the originators but the attitude of many catholics here in america (i don’t suggest this is a worldwide thing) has caused annulments to be something attainable by all. although it is not as easy to get an annulment as it is a divorce, it is still possible for many who do not qualify for one to receive one (IMO).

 

[bengal_fan]

so does everyone agree with me that the ease of getting annulments has contributed just as much as divorced protestants to the failling of our society or were we just here to try to bash protestants?