What Do Catholics Not Respect Non-Catholics?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Swan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
When Catholics point this out, many Protestants attempt damage control by attacking the faith being discussed in James 2, saying it is an inferior or bad faith. Some do this by pejoratively labeling it “dead faith.” They treat “faith without works is dead” (vv. 17, 26) as if it were a definition and say, “If faith does not produce works then it is dead faith. It is this dead faith that James says won’t save us.”

But reading the context shows that James is not using the phrase as a definition. He is not defining the term “dead faith.” That term does not appear in the text. He is stating a fact, not offering a definition.

The interpretation flies apart at the seams when we test it by substituting “dead faith” wherever the text mentions faith.

On that reading, people would be boasting of having dead faith (v. 14). James would be making the redundant statement that dead faith without works is dead (vv. 17, 26) and offering to prove that dead faith is barren (v. 20). He would be offering to show his dead faith by his works (v. 18) and commending people (“you do well”) for having dead faith (v. 19). He would be telling us that Abraham’s dead faith was active with his works (v. 22) and that Abraham believed God with dead faith and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (v. 23).

Another attempt to impugn “faith” in this passage uses the statement “Even the demons believe—and shudder” (v. 19). People ask, “What kind of faith do demons have? Only mere intellectual assent. They intellectually assent to the truths of theology, but this is as far as their faith goes.” This understanding of the faith in James 2 is closer to the truth, but it still creates problems—in fact, many of the same problems.

People would be boasting of having mere intellectual assent (v. 14). James would be offering to show others his mere intellectual assent by his works (v. 18). He would be commending people for having mere intellectual assent (v. 19) and saying that Abraham’s mere intellectual assent was active along with his works (v. 22). He would be saying that Abraham’s mere intellectual assent was reckoned to him as righteousness, contradicting verse 23, which would state that mere intellectual assent is barren.

The “mere intellectual assent” solution fails just as the “dead faith” one does. In fact, any solution that impugns the faith James is talking about as a bad or inferior faith will fail. This can be seen by going through the passage and substituting “bad faith” and “inferior faith” wherever “faith” is mentioned. Such solutions fail because James does not see anything wrong with the faith he is talking about. The faith isn’t the problem; the fact it is alone is the problem.

To understand what kind of faith James has in mind, one must avoid the temptation to read something bad into it. This is where the “mere intellectual assent” solution went wrong. Its advocates correctly identified verse 19 as the key to understanding the faith being discussed, which is intellectual assent. The problems were created by adding the term “mere” to make it sound bad. Leave “mere” off, and the problems vanish. Someone can go around boasting that he intellectually assents to God’s truth (v. 14), prompting James’s need to show that intellectual assent without works is dead and barren (vv. 17, 20, 26). He could offer to show his intellectual assent by his works (v. 18). And he could commend a person for having intellectual assent (v. 19a), while saying that even the demons have it though it doesn’t stop them from shuddering at the prospect of God’s wrath (v. 19b).

Finally, he can speak of how Abraham’s intellectual assent was active with and completed by his works (v. 22) and can conclude that man is not justified by intellectual assent alone (v. 24). James views intellectual assent as good thing (“you do well,” v. 19a), but not as a thing that will save us by itself (vv. 14, 17, 20, 24, 26).
 
WHAT part do good works play in our salvation? Many Christians, especially Evangelicals, say they play no part, but the Catholic Church teaches that they do have a role. At the same time the Church warns against the idea that we “earn” our salvation through good works. Both errors can be avoided by paying close attention to Scripture.

“Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 7:21).

“One came up to him, saying, `Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?’ And Jesus replied ‘If you would enter life, keep the commandments’” (Matt. 19:16-17).

“He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him” (John 14:21).

“But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury” (Rom. 2:2-8).

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love” (Gal. 5:4-6).

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Eph. 2:8-10).

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:12-13).

“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness’; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:14-24).
 
This is what I call, salvation by meeting requirements…and by meeting requirements, you are working for salvation…a works based faith.

Is salvation really based upon a persons effort in meeting the requirements established by a Church?
The Church IS Jesus Christ

and

the Church is the Body of Believers

and

the Church is the Bride of Christ.

Meeting requirements? How about accepting the Lord’s “suggestions” …
like picking up our crosses…
like availing ourselves of His Sacraments …
like believing in ALL the words He spoke, as recorded in the Catholic Gospels…

and more
 
The Church IS Jesus Christ

and

the Church is the Body of Believers

and

the Church is the Bride of Christ.

Meeting requirements? How about accepting the Lord’s “suggestions” …
like picking up our crosses…
like availing ourselves of His Sacraments …
like believing in ALL the words He spoke, as recorded in the Catholic Gospels…

and more
Sounds good, except those things that you mention, the Church teaches that it must be done within their walls and under their control.

That there is no salvation without the Church.

Surely a person doesn’t require the institution of the Church to experience the sacred and form a relationship with God?
 
Sounds good, except those things that you mention, the Church teaches that it must be done within their walls and under their control.

That there is no salvation without the Church.

Surely a person doesn’t require the institution of the Church to experience the sacred and form a relationship with God?
Nope it doesn’t.

I once suggested to my Baptist son that if all he needed was him and Jesus, then he should sleep in on Sunday, stay home on Wednesday, toss out the hymnal, and not worry about the building, the fellowship, the tangibles etc.

His response… “… come on dad, those things help bring us closer to Christ…”

My response… " … exactly… it is just that Catholics have more, much more, of ‘those’ things!!"😉
 
Nope it doesn’t.

I once suggested to my Baptist son that if all he needed was him and Jesus, then he should sleep in on Sunday, stay home on Wednesday, toss out the hymnal, and not worry about the building, the fellowship, the tangibles etc.

His response… “… come on dad, those things help bring us closer to Christ…”

My response… " … exactly… it is just that Catholics have more, much more, of ‘those’ things!!"😉
:dancing:
 
Let us go sing Kumbaya! :rolleyes:

[SIGN]Will the real Church please stand up![/SIGN]
I will say ‘Amen to that’

Blessings and peace to you and all good wishes to our separated brethren, our kith and kin in Christ.
 
Honestly…In response to the original poster, I have never felt disrespected by any Catholics in real life. The internet doesn’t count because it’s only partial reality. I get along swimmingly with Catholics in the real world.
Allow me to disagree. Why should anyone Christian allow himself / herself to be disrespectful to somebody else just because he/she does not appear under his/her own name? Even if no one else knows who you are, you can’t deceive God and He knows everything. Defaming somebody openly or in a disguise is equally bad, and a grave sin. And you can’t hide a thing to God!
So, if you think you can escape and go to Mass and receive communion when your soul is not in communion with God, you put your soul in grave danger. Even if nobody saw you nor knew it was you, if you think of yourself as a true Christian you should go to confession before having communion, a true one, with genuine regret and the firm resolve not to do that again. Otherwise, you had better not receive communion because you are not true toward God, and God and sin don’t go together… It’s a serious matter, just like any other grave sin!..
Forgive me this side note, but I feel i had to do it. May God help us all!
 
I feel that here in the CAF as well as in other forums on any website I have the responsability to act as a good Catholic as well as in front of other people in “real life”! Look, this is not YTV!!
This is not “Nothing Sacred”!! In this forum it’s real people who are taking part. Not Martians nor cartoon characters nor funny puppets nor animals, but real human people! What you and I say here can truly affect other people, one way or another! And so, my friends, let’s not give in to the illusion that what happens here is nothing!
Even here we are called to act like saints, just like we always should. This goes for me as well as for you. Agreed?
God bless you!
 
The Church teaches that we save through grace of God.

.
Grace by God, but grace that is controlled by the Church. These graces that you speak of, within the Church, they can only be obtained by fullfiling the imposed requirements of the Church.

If you must meet requirements of the Church in order to gain Gods graces, well that is the definition of a works based faith.
 
Grace by God, but grace that is controlled by the Church. These graces that you speak of, within the Church, they can only be obtained by fullfiling the imposed requirements of the Church.

If you must meet requirements of the Church in order to gain Gods graces, well that is the definition of a works based faith.
It just goes to prove that the believer of true Catholicism must make the church larger than God himself to contain him in it.
 
Grace by God, but grace that is controlled by the Church. These graces that you speak of, within the Church, they can only be obtained by fullfiling the imposed requirements of the Church.

If you must meet requirements of the Church in order to gain Gods graces, well that is the definition of a works based faith.
i guess even God goofed on this one too.1)one must profess Jesus as Lord 2) one must repent of their sins 3)one must love God etc. seperating the church from her head is the cause of this type of beleif shown by OTP.questions for you OTP where did the church come from?are not the church “imposed” requirements the same ones Jesus spoke of? if not what is different?
 
Love God, love your neighbour, repent and be saved.

Beautiful and simple.

The Good News.

I’m trying to connect with God, with the sacred and worry less about following rules and meeting requirements.
 
Grace by God, but grace that is controlled by the Church. These graces that you speak of, within the Church, they can only be obtained by fullfiling the imposed requirements of the Church.

If you must meet requirements of the Church in order to gain Gods graces, well that is the definition of a works based faith.
And Jesus was asked…

“What must I do to be saved…”

and the listener heard Jesus say

“…oh, don’t worry, I will not have any requirements…”
 
Just my two cents: I noticed Old Catholicism has here been considered worthy of falling into the “non-Catholic religions” category. Even if you want to dispute our Catholic fidelity to the dogmas of the Holy Faith, to the Sacraments, to so much that is Catholic because we refused to in good conscience submit to the dogmatization of what we believed was a doctrine, simply a teaching, it can be rather insulting to be grouped together with many who absolutely despise Catholicism. We consider ourselves Catholics, are as faithful Catholics as we can be, have had the Grace of God in having Rome recognizing our Orders and Sacraments despite their disagreement with us, and yet are treated as if we are, quite simply, religious trash.

I guess the difference to be noted is in this: there are those even on this board who will disagree with me, but will never be disrespectful towards me. They are loving, and they will even debate me, but humbly. And I will to the best of my ability and with God’s Grace do the same. There are others will try to degrade you, to boast their “intellectual superiority”, display elitism and make it seem as if they alone are the best-owners of truth (the gnostic heresy?). As a matter of fact, it sounds like Satan’s reaction to man. For those people we should look to Jude 1:9 - “When Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the judgment of railing speech, but said: The Lord command thee.”
 
Love God, love your neighbour, repent and be saved.

Beautiful and simple.

The Good News.
Funnily enough, those sound like rules. What gives? I thought you preached the gospel of “You don’t have to do anything to be saved,” and here you are telling me I have to DO something! No fair!
 
I would just like Catholics and the Church itself to take a good, strong, honest audit of itself and face some facts…

By and large, Catholics have never been a Bible-reading group (laity)…Most of my protestant friends always express ‘shock’ that I know scripture so well. The only reason I know scripture is because I’m SELF-TAUGH. The RCC never taught me squat about scripture. We learned catechism in CCD growing up, a little old testament, a few basic stories of Jesus and that’s about it. We mostly learned rules, when to bow, how to pray, and what to say…

Protestants are missionary-oriented. I can’t count how many of my protestant co-workers or friends have gone on missions. They use laity to go on missions and they’re driven. Catholics use the priesthood for missions by and large. I can’t name one catholic at our church who has ever gone on a mission.

Protestants tend to have more buy-in with kids and youth. Only in the last ten years has there even been a vacation bible school in our parish and that being said, it’s a pitiful-looking program. Protestants were having VBS way back in the day. I used to go with my lutheran and non-denominational friends as a kid to VBS because we didn’t have one.

Protestants focus on scripture heavily, catholics as a whole tend to focus mostly on the liturgy, confession, rosary, and prayer.

There is not as much fellowship in the Catholic Church as in protestantism. When my family and I used to attend the Anglican Church, there was always coffee hour directly after the service as well as Bible study and dinner together in the hall Wednesday nights. After Mass at our Catholic Church now, there’s nothing.

What I’d like to see is Catholics STOP just using the 7 sacraments as their only claim to fame to get protestants to convert. While I DON’T want roller coasters and ferris wheels or crazy born again revivals in the park, I’d like to see the Catholic Church try to open itself up with more scripture, more passion, more missionary zeal and evangelism, more youth buy-in, more fun, and some child care wouldn’t hurt at our parish!

The tone I often feel in these forums is: "hey, we have all seven sacraments and Peter himself. We’re infallible and that’s enough. Reform? Bah, Trent did that. So many Catholics are contemptible toward Luther and try to sugar coat the indulgences racket back in the Middle Ages or sluff off papal misdeeds. I think the Catholic Church needs to take stock of itself. When I’ve gone overseas in the past ten years with my wife to the Philippines it is shocking to hear how boring, urbane, and just all around dreadful the Mass is. Good Lord they’re just dull. Even Mass can be dull if the lector, priest, and co-celebrants are boring farts. I don’t think we Catholics can just rely on some statements by St. Ignatus and Polycarp about the Eucharist to get folks into the Church. We need to breathe more life back into it!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top