What Do Catholics Really Believe?

[OneTrueCathApos]

**The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want
In verdant pastures he gives me repose; Beside restful waters He leads me;
He refreshes my soul.
He guides me in right paths for His name’s sake.

Even though I walk in the dark valley, I FEAR NO EVIL, for you are at my side with your rod and your staff that give me courage.**

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

The Church teaches that people who are not members of the Church can be saved if inflicted with “invincible ignorance”. i have always thought that those who left the church were a lot more at risk than those who were never members.

I agree.

 

[estesbob]

I agree.

Well its nice that at least one oerson agrees with me. I got attqcked unmercifully 2 years ago for saying the same thing on a CAF thread i had started!

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Well its nice that at least one oerson agrees with me. I got attqcked unmercifully 2 years ago for saying the same thing on a CAF thread i had started!

Well I don’t understand that since it says this in our Catechism. To be a Catholic and to fall away KNOWING what Jesus taught and KNOWING He established the Catholic church is a grave sin.

 

[BRB1]

your interpretation OF THE BIBLE along with your glorious reformers divides us.

And yes I do believe there is no Salvation outside the Catholic church. This WAS what the church taught for centuries, as what Jesus Himself taught.

And who would my glorious reformers be ?

No salvation outside the Catholic church ? Support your viewpoint. The Church’s foremost evangelist [Fr. Corapi] doesn’t teach your narrow-minded ideology.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Jon, how do you get that we are “seperated brethren” as well when we never ever left the CC? You are not part of the Body of Christ. You ARE seperated as Bill says.

It would be very difficult to find a theologian today who believes that Protestants are not members of the Body of Christ. Such a denial would be in conflict with Church teaching.​

But let us imagine - purely for the sake of argument - that Protestants are not members of the Body of Christ. How then is it that they bring forth a great deal of good fruit ? That is not possible, if they are cut off from Christ; that they bring forth this fruit, means therefore that they are in union with him. FWIW, I can’t see any moral or other difference between Catholics & Protestants: both need Christ, both are full of evils, both fall short of Christ in many ways, both have received from Him. So why the rivalry ? Should we not be helping & supporting one another ?

 

[estesbob]

And who would my glorious reformers be ?

No salvation outside the Catholic church ? Support your viewpoint. The Church’s foremost evangelist [Fr. Corapi] doesn’t teach your narrow-minded ideology.

You can not seperaet Christ from his Church. They are one in the same. Thus if you beleive that there is no slavation outside Christ that is the same as saying there is no Salavation ouside the Catholic Church. This does not, however, mean one has to be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved.-but rest assured onessalvation is always thorugh Christ’s Church(Christ himself)

 

[BRB1]

Thus if you beleive that there is no slavation outside Christ that is the same as saying there is no Salavation ouside the Catholic Church.

This does not, however, mean one has to be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved.-but rest assured onessalvation is always thorugh Christ’s Church(Christ himself)

Now you contradict yourself. These two statements don’t support each other.

Take your pick … do you believe the first, or the second ?

 

[BRB1]

yes I do believe there is no Salvation outside the Catholic church. This WAS what the church taught for centuries, as what Jesus Himself taught.

Lets examine words of Jesus …

Mark 9:38-41 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us. For truly I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.

Give us your interpretation of this passage from Christ.

 

[estesbob]

Now you contradict yourself. These two statements don’t support each other.

Take your pick … do you believe the first, or the second ?

There is no contradiction Christ IS the Church.

 

[JonNC]

It would be very difficult to find a theologian today who believes that Protestants are not members of the Body of Christ. Such a denial would be in conflict with Church teaching.​

But let us imagine - purely for the sake of argument - that Protestants are not members of the Body of Christ. How then is it that they bring forth a great deal of good fruit ? That is not possible, if they are cut off from Christ; that they bring forth this fruit, means therefore that they are in union with him. FWIW, I can’t see any moral or other difference between Catholics & Protestants: both need Christ, both are full of evils, both fall short of Christ in many ways, both have received from Him. So why the rivalry ? Should we not be helping & supporting one another ?

Thanks, Michael. I completely agree.
Jon

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Lets examine words of Jesus …

Mark 9:38-41 John said to him, “Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us. For truly I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward.

Give us your interpretation of this passage from Christ.

Again, another “Catholic” picking an argument with a fellow Catholic…You are Catholic, therefore I should not have to explain this as if you do study your faith throughout the centuries, you should already know your own answers…

 

[estesbob]

Thanks, Michael. I completely agree.
Jon

Rahther than quibble about who belongs to the “The Body of Christ” lets get back to what the Church Teaches . There is NO salvation outside the Catholic Church:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
[846](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/846.htm’) How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
[848](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/848.htm’) "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred

 

[Ludovicus]

For those who are interested in a more detailed discussion of the dogma "No salvation outside the Catholic Church, I am in the process of doing a detailed discussion of this at my blog, outsidethechurchnosalvation.blogspot.com/

Beginning with Scripture, and then the Fathers of the Church, I show that the church’s teaching has always been the same on this matter.

God bless,

 

[JonNC]

Rahther than quibble about who belongs to the “The Body of Christ” lets get back to what the Church Teaches . There is NO salvation outside the Catholic Church:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
[846](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/846.htm’) How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
[848](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/848.htm’) "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred

Am I, through my trinitarian Baptism, a member of the Church? What about the Orthodox?

Jon

 

[estesbob]

Am I, through my trinitarian Baptism, a member of the Church? What about the Orthodox?

Jon

No. You are them member of a Chrisitian denomination founded by a man some 1,500 years after the Ressurection and espousing Doctrines that were unheard of for most of those 1,500 years . There is only one Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ. The One Holy, Apostolic Church headed by the Pope, the Vicar of Christ. That Church is the Catholic Church

 

[JonNC]

No. You are them member of a Chrisitian denomination founded by a man some 1,500 years after the Ressurection and espousing Doctrines that were unheard of for most of those 1,500 years . There is only one Church, the Church founded by Jesus Christ. The One Holy, Apostolic Church headed by the Pope, the Vicar of Christ. That Church is the Catholic Church

I know you meant 500 years ago. Of course, we reject that analysis, as you might expect.
I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

1. Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him.58 The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches.59 Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.60

On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, *those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.*62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63

“The Christian faithful are therefore not permitted to imagine that the Church of Christ is nothing more than a collection — divided, yet in some way one — of Churches and ecclesial communities; nor are they free to hold that today the Church of Christ nowhere really exists, and must be considered only as a goal which all Churches and ecclesial communities must strive to reach”.64 In fact, “the elements of this already-given Church exist, joined together in their fullness in the Catholic Church and, without this fullness, in the other communities”.65 “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.66

The lack of unity among Christians is certainly a wound for the Church; not in the sense that she is deprived of her unity, but “in that it hinders the complete fulfilment of her universality in history”.67

Jon

 

[estesbob]

I know you meant 500 years ago. Of course, we reject that analysis, as you might expect.
I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on this.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Jon

No ,the so called "Reformation’ was some 1,500 years after Christ founded his Church. Why did God wait 1,500 years to reveal that his church had been in error from the day Christ ascended until the day Luther figured this out? How many millions were condemned to hellfire following false Doctrines during these 1,500 years? Why would anyone trust a God who was so incompetent?

 

[JonNC]

No ,the so called "Reformation’ was some 1,500 years after Christ founded his Church. Why did God wait 1,500 years to reveal that his church had been in error from the day Christ ascended until the day Luther figured this out? How many millions were condemned to hellfire following false Doctrines during these 1,500 years? Why would anyone trust a God who was so incompetent?

Sorry, I misread your original post.

As for your other remarks. Who ever said that the 10 of millions of Christians prior to the Reformation were condemned to hellfire? Who am I or you or Luther or Benedict XVI to judge who is damned to hellfire. Only God determines that, and I just in His mercy, for me at least as much as for you.
That all Catholics and Orthodox, and all those prior to 1054 were condemned: is that what you think I think, or that Lutherans think?

If, after the promise of the resurrection, God still would condemn believers by the ten of millions, people who trusted in Him, prayed to Him, worshipped and glorified Him, baptised their children into His triune name, then condemn me too.

I am so sorry that I you feel this way. It seems ecumenism has so much work to do.

Jon

 

[BRB1]

No ,the so called "Reformation’ was some 1,500 years after Christ founded his Church. Why did God wait 1,500 years to reveal that his church had been in error from the day Christ ascended until the day Luther figured this out?

Why would anyone trust a God who was so incompetent?

Perhaps the Catholic Church lost its moral compass 500 yrs ago ? Not that M. Luther had all the answers … but, his actions enabled the Protestant Reformation to catch hold. Would the USA have had its mark on history, except for the Protestant beginnings and export to the New World ?

I’m not suggesting that Protestants have the superior scriptural understandings … just that Protestants are beloved by Christ, and they have been used in a mighty way to spread the Good News.

If Catholicism had not grown stale after 1500 years, the Protestant movement would not of been needed. Ironically, the Protestant Reformation has resulted in a Catholic Reformation … with many Protestants coming into the Church and working to get the Church back to its early historical roots.