What do Catholics think happens to Dead Protestants?

[frfreddie]

Wow! I thought this might be complex, but yikes!

My wife read many of your responses and was quite satisfied, as was I. After Mass Sunday she wanted to talk to the Father about classes.

In any case, I thank you for your responses. They were very helpful. You guys are great.

 

[SPH1]

Maybe and maybe not. But who are we to judge?

You operate on the premise that pretty much everyone outside of the Catholic Church is saved. I don’t. Nor should we. The Church is the ordinary means directing one to salvation in Christ. Salvation outside of the Church is an extra-ordinary means. It is NOT judging to announce that people must convert to Christ and the Holy Catholic Church. That is the very essence of our mission. And those who hear this message and fail to convert are in serious danger.

Again, what we have received in the Church and through the Sacrament is the presence of Christ. This is wonderful news that we should be in a sense shouting from every rooftop. It is an intrinsic part of the Christian message that it should be prosletysing and missionary. This is not merely for the avoidance of damnation of all, but mainly because this is the good news that all of humanity has been waiting for: the treasure that we would share with our friends.

So, the Church and Sacraments are a nice thing…but not all that necessary.

Finally, on a less reverent note, I always used to hear when growing up, that we are Catholics because we are greater sinners: if we were outside the church, cut off from sacramental grace, then we should would not be able to walk that narrow path to God… Protestants are not Catholics because they are better people and do not need it as much Very funny really.

Nope, the Church and Sacraments are not necessary except for perhaps Catholics, who are lesser than everyone else.

So, just how necessary is Christ and becoming Christian? The ordinary way to salvation? Or simply a nice thing?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

First of all, there is no mention of Purgatory, that was strictly an opinion on your part. Second of all, the part I posted says “do not know the Church”. I interpret that as saying outside of the Church, not a member of, etc.

Mike, I’m Catholic. I’m C-A-T-H-O-L-I-C. It doesn’t matter whether Protestants believe in something or not. If something is it is.

CDL

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I think we are in violent agreement with each other.

“Can be saved” and “may obtain salvation” are the same thing to me.

I agree with you that if someone knows they should be Catholic and don’t enter into it, then they may be in trouble. However, truthfully, I don’t think alot of folks fall in that category. If they feel the Catholic Church is right, then they will be a Catholic, if they don’t feel it’s right, then they won’t be a member.

What do “Feelings” have to do with anything?

CDL

 

[mikew262]

What do “Feelings” have to do with anything?

CDL

Ok, geez! Use “believe” if that makes you feel better. If they believe the Catholic Church…

 

[bunbun]

Maybe the Church is incorrect on the imperfect communion principle. It seems the Church is trying to have it’s cake and eat it too, for lack of a better way to say it. One one hand, it acknowledges that people outside the Church may obtain salvation, but on the other hand it’s trying to say those folks are still members of the Church, be it non-formally. Doesn’t this sound like the Church is trying to have it both ways?

It would make it much easier if the church will lay down a series of rules to say who is going to heaven (me preferably) and who is going to hell (most of my neighbors!) The point through is that the only one who can judge in these matters is God. And we hope that when the time comes God will be merciful and not hold our many faults against us.

What we can hold on to is the merits and grace of the resurrection which flows through the Body of Christ to all its members, i.e. the church. The fact remains that all of us, most of the time, are in imperfect communion with the Body of Christ through our sin. Yet we have little difficulty, it seems, expecting God’s healing love to extend to us

Surely, it requires little effort to see this applies no less to all of our brethren who have valid sacraments but are in schism, like the Orientals and the Orthodox. Would you deny them God’s grace when it is the same grace that draws us back to His embrace after mortal sin (when, by definition, we too wilfully disrupt our communion with God)?
So similarly protestants to a lesser extent.

In terms of other non-believers, though, I think it is more difficult to see that there is much of a communion. I think that Rahner’s model of the “anonymous Christian” is not so satisfactory.

Yet even then, in a mysterious way, the abundant grace (i.e. God’s love) which pours out through the church reaches all of mankind. This is the anthropology in St. Paul’s epistle. Through the sin of one man we are damned. And we find our salvation in the new Adam who is the Christ. This profound biblical and Christian sense of the solidarity of man is difficult for us to grasp, infected as we are by the idea of personal autonomy in both protestantism and modernism. But it is central, alas, to Christian salvation

Bun bun

P.S. I think that the Vatican II analogies for the church, i.e. People of God, Body of Christ, Sacrament etc., are probably more useful than thinking of church and salvation in terms of club membership: formal paid up members, informal but card carrying members, members who have left but didn’t really mean to, really really informal members who don’t even realized they joined in the first place …

 

[anamchara]

Well, those who contend for this are absolutely correct. A person who is truely devoted to God but outside the Catholic Church in this part of their lives may have a “time” of it in Purgatory but at the end of it they will be Catholic. There is no salvation outside the Church. Why else would anyone convert?

CDL

It’s wrong to tell Protestants they have no salvation, the catechism seems to make it fairly clear they have a chance.

It looks like this has been debated very nicely yesterday so I will just try and answer your question.

Why else would anyone want to convert?

The beauty of the Catholic faith and the real presence of our Lord could be one reason, just a thought. But there are so many other reasons, it’s endless and my mere words could never convey just how profoundly beautiful our faith is. Salvation is not always on the top of everyones list when they decide to convert.

I could ask you a similar question, why is so important for you to believe there is no salvation outside our faith? Why would you want to believe so solidly that all others will never achieve salvation?

I don’t believe the Church is this harsh nor do I believe Christ turns those out of heaven that have lead a good Christain life and had a strong belief in our Lord. My father for one was not Catholic but Methodist, I believe he is in heaven. I don’t see anything wrong with this.

 

[bunbun]

You operate on the premise that pretty much everyone outside of the Catholic Church is saved.

Not at all. I am saying that what is reserved to God to judge, to decide whether this or that person should have eternal life in heaven, we should leave to Him. To say very much more does not seem particularly helpful one way or another. To be very practical, it is not as if you can put percentages on how many non-Catholics shall be saved by the Will of God, as opposed perhaps to those Catholics who die in a state of mortal sin…

The Church is the ordinary means directing one to salvation in Christ.

I agree. More than that, the church is the instituted way by which anyone can be saved. There is no salvation ex exclesiam. That is part of our revelation.

At the same time, I am saying we do an injustice to the good news that “God became man” to see this purely in terms (however implicitly) of avoiding damnation. I think the Christian message is more positive. Unlike protestants, we should not be preaching (the avoidance of) hell, but heaven. We look forward not to the avoidance of damnation but to share the Beatific Vision, to see God face to face. This is precisely what has impoverished protestantism (as opposed to Orthodoxy) most probably because of the loss of sacramental life.

Just in case you misunderstand me, I am not denying the existence of hell, or even the probability that it is well populated However, hell should be seen primarily in terms of what it is not: i.e. it is the absence and rejection of God, it is the negation, if you like, of heaven. Not to start first from heaven also impoverishes our understanding of hell (as much as denying the possibility of hell makes a mockery of heaven).

At the end of the day, how often do we hear priests preaching about the joys of heaven, of how we should look forward to being in the presence of God? Perhaps we Catholics need to ask ourselves more often whether we are underselling the Christian message even to ourselves.

So, the Church and Sacraments are a nice thing…but not all that necessary.

No the Church and Sacraments are absolutely necessary. The Church is the only means of salvation, and the Sacraments are the efficacious signs of God’s gracious love.

But again, how much do we diminish the Blessed Sacrament, for example, if we see it solely in terms of what we need to do to avoid damnation. To receive the Body of Christ, to have God dwell within us, that is surely infinitely more precious than that. This is the full sense of salvation: not merely avoidance of damnation (which I stress again seems to be the implicit theme of this thread) but ultimately deification. “The Son of God became man, that we might become God.” In heaven, in the beatific vision, we shall share God’s living love in a state of ecstactic joy. “…we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”. This is anticipated in the sacraments.

When we meet our “separated brethren”, should we be thinking: umm, don’t you know that you are only relying on an extraordinary mean of salvation whereas we have, like, the ordinary means of salvation… Ha ha ha.

Or do we understand that “Poor friend. If only you knew how much you miss, the sacramental grace you forego, the preciousness of the Blessed Sacrament that we can adore, the healing grace and forgiveness of sins in the sacrament of Confession… etc.”

This should be what drives us to missionary work, to bring everyone to Christ in the Church.

Maybe you will say all this is only a matter of emphasis. It is likely that I am misunderstanding you.

Bun bun

 

[bunbun]

My father for one was not Catholic but Methodist, I believe he is in heaven.

It is part of the Christian Hope to place our trust in God’s love and mercy. As Catholics too, we have recourse to prayer, so that if your father is preparing for the joys of heaven insides purgatory, he may more quickly be healed of his wounds and be with God. In either heaven or purgatory, he too will be praying for you, and looking at you with love. Isn’t the communion of saints wonderful?

 

[anamchara]

Isn’t the communion of saints wonderful?

I think so I like the general theme in most of your posts in this thread bunbun.

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I could ask you a similar question, why is so important for you to believe there is no salvation outside our faith? Why would you want to believe so solidly that all others will never achieve salvation?

I don’t believe the Church is this harsh nor do I believe Christ turns those out of heaven that have lead a good Christain life and had a strong belief in our Lord. My father for one was not Catholic but Methodist, I believe he is in heaven. I don’t see anything wrong with this.

Why would I believe that there is no salvation outside the Catholic faith? Because it is true. Catholic is whole, universal, and complete. There really is no salvation outside of her. It’s up to God to judge each individual and determine who is and who isn’t inside the Catholic Church but the statement is absolutely true. I thank God that it was revealed to me in this lifetime.

CDL

 

[Bishopite]

I think we are in violent agreement with each other.

“Can be saved” and “may obtain salvation” are the same thing to me.

I agree with you that if someone knows they should be Catholic and don’t enter into it, then they may be in trouble. However, truthfully, I don’t think alot of folks fall in that category. If they feel the Catholic Church is right, then they will be a Catholic, if they don’t feel it’s right, then they won’t be a member.

Yes, I agree with you on that. Certainly only God knows who is honestly seeking Him. God bless.

 

[bunbun]

Why would I believe that there is no salvation outside the Catholic faith? Because it is true. Catholic is whole, universal, and complete. There really is no salvation outside of her. It’s up to God to judge each individual and determine who is and who isn’t inside the Catholic Church but the statement is absolutely true. I thank God that it was revealed to me in this lifetime.

I think you are both right

There is no salvation outside or apart from the church. That is defined dogma (Fourth Lateran Council: “Extra ecclesiam nullus salus”).

However, we must remember that the Holy innocents, the Jewish Patriarchs (think Moses and Elijah at the transfiguration) have always been included in the canon of Saints. Many of the fathers were equally insistent that Adam would be in heaven.

Clearly, then “Extra ecclesiam” is not simplistically about card holding membership on Sunday…

The balanced understanding of this term has already been exhaustively discussed in this list, and is addressed explicitly in the Catholic Catechism.

The Catholic Catechisms discussion is comprehensive, orthodox and nuanced, covering definitely traditional Catholic teaching on this matter.

Maybe we should all go and look that up. Otherwise we are going to keep going round and round in circles.

 

[mikew262]

Why would I believe that there is no salvation outside the Catholic faith? Because it is true.
CDL

No, it’s not true. I’ve already shown you proof from the Church itself. The bottom line is that God is the final judge on who obtains salvation.

 

[fix]

Maybe the Church is incorrect on the imperfect communion principle. It seems the Church is trying to have it’s cake and eat it too, for lack of a better way to say it. One one hand, it acknowledges that people outside the Church may obtain salvation, but on the other hand it’s trying to say those folks are still members of the Church, be it non-formally. Doesn’t this sound like the Church is trying to have it both ways?

No, it means we must understand these terms as the Church uses them not as we think they ought to be understood.

Above all else, it must be firmly believed that “the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5), and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door”.77 This doctrine must not be set against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); “it is necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of the Church for this salvation”.78

The Church is the “universal sacrament of salvation”,79 since, united always in a mysterious way to the Saviour Jesus Christ, her Head, and subordinated to him, she has, in God's plan, an indispensable relationship with the salvation of every human being.80 For those who are not formally and visibly members of the Church, “salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit”;81 it has a relationship with the Church, which “according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit”.

1. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[dessert]

Why would I believe that there is no salvation outside the Catholic faith? Because it is true. Catholic is whole, universal, and complete. There really is no salvation outside of her. It’s up to God to judge each individual and determine who is and who isn’t inside the Catholic Church but the statement is absolutely true. I thank God that it was revealed to me in this lifetime.

CDL

I am a cradel Catholic REvert and have since trying to get my three bros to get back to the Church. We were all baptized into the Church as infants. Recently I have told them that they are really still legally Catholics, they think I am :bigyikes: bonkers I told them this because they haven’t really denounced their faith so the churches they are in are not valid for their salvationa dn they are still actuallyy listed and in fact we all used to get the little mission books once a year mind you only but my mother had the missions praying for us all the time unbeknownce to us. My bros gave me another They are Baptist ,Assembly ,and nothing in particular. I used to think that none other than RCC are going to heaven but many denominations baptise in the trinity and have confirmation and first communion etc. My DH thinks priests are out but he confesses his sins to me all the time and I wish he would go to a priest because he feels such remorse but the power is not in me or to himself to forgive sins.
So where does that leave my bros as they really feel they are in church and go to their service all the time.
If they ask me if they are going to heaven I will have to say yes. Right? Dessert

 

[dessert]

I’m going to start a new thread on this because I think we should not fret about the dead accept to pray but this thread has got me to thinking about a nother topic that i hope you will answer some questions for me. Why do Protestants want to marry Catholics?

 

[GregoryPalamas]

I am a cradel Catholic REvert and have since trying to get my three bros to get back to the Church. We were all baptized into the Church as infants. Recently I have told them that they are really still legally Catholics, they think I am :bigyikes: bonkers I told them this because they haven’t really denounced their faith so the churches they are in are not valid for their salvationa dn they are still actuallyy listed and in fact we all used to get the little mission books once a year mind you only but my mother had the missions praying for us all the time unbeknownce to us. My bros gave me another They are Baptist ,Assembly ,and nothing in particular. I used to think that none other than RCC are going to heaven but many denominations baptise in the trinity and have confirmation and first communion etc. My DH thinks priests are out but he confesses his sins to me all the time and I wish he would go to a priest because he feels such remorse but the power is not in me or to himself to forgive sins.
So where does that leave my bros as they really feel they are in church and go to their service all the time.
If they ask me if they are going to heaven I will have to say yes. Right? Dessert

I don’t know that any of us knows whose going to heaven. All I know is that the body of Christ is the same as the Catholic Church. I don’t know anything else.

CDL

 

[bunbun]

No, it’s not true. I’ve already shown you proof from the Church itself. The bottom line is that God is the final judge on who obtains salvation.

I think if you read some of the other posts you will see that you are both right and that you are arguing at cross purposes . I draw your attention particular to the abstracts from the Catholic Catechism already cited here (i.e. 846-848).

At a risk of some tedium, I am included the first paragraph

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head ***through the Church ***which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church.

The Church is the necessary means that God ordained for the salvation of mankind. To quote Lateran IV, there is No Salvation Outside/Apart the Church: "Extra Ecclesiam nullus salus"

However, the Church has never taught that this means that those who have not had our opportunity to become Catholics will be rejected by God. Rather, the Catholic Catechism makes it clear that in some mysterious way, the salvic grace of God pours so abundantly through His Mystical Body, the Church, that it reaches even those who on the face of it have no connection with it.

This mysterious action of Grace through the Church seems so difficult for us to accept because
a) we find it hard to see that God does not only act as we do, i.e. in a humanly obvious and direct manner and
b) we are determined to assert our own individuality and autonomy and cannot accept the human solidarity which runs through scripture.

This profound solidarity runs from how God talks to his chosen people in the OT (as a corporate body and not merely individuals, they have collective responsibility for their merit and faults), all the way in an unbroken line to the anthropology of St. Paul where he repeatedly explains how we are damned by the sin of one man (Adam) and saved by the virtue of another (Christ).

This reminds us that God create us in order that we might be happy not as individuals in isolation but together in a Communion of Saints. This exhorts us to try harder to bring all to the fullness of faith.

Bun bun

 

[SPH1]

All of this is good and true.

But although one can be saved although not a formal member of the Church, that does not mean that any particular person is so saved. Our missionary goal is to bring non-Christians to Christ and non-Catholic Christians into the Holy Catholic Church…the only direct and sure way to God.