What do Catholics think/know about John Wesley?

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PbloPicasso said:
Historically speaking, John Wesley, or Fr. John, was quite more Catholic looking and acting than today’s faithful Catholics. He celibrated the Eucharist and probably had valid orders if my source was correct. He engaged in the sacraments of the church as any faithful Catholic would do. The sad part is that his followers simply dumbed down what he tried to teach and ultimately it was morphed into modern day Methodism eventually.

He was also a Geographer, something one of my professors got a swift kick about, we’re geographers.
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As noted above, if you follow the logic of Apostolicae Curae, Wesley would not be considered by RCs to possess valid orders.

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus
*
 
rturner76 said:
He started off Anglican which is very close to Catholic and I think when he was around, Anglicans were Apostolic. His brother Charles was very adamant that they remain Apostolic but John became mostly concerned with holiness regardless of who/what you claim to be.

Has anyone studied his theology or teachings? How close is he to Catholic beliefs?
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I think that John Wesley would be a tough act to follow…His Methods remind me of what it might be like to ba a monk. I see these methods as externals to accomplish something internal…and I suppose that is the purpose…

The Methodist Method

John Wesley (the founder of Methodism) taught that “a Methodist is one that lives according to the method laid down in the Bible”.

These are the methods of holiness used by early Methodists.
“WWJD?” (from John Wesley’s diary)

“Whenever you are to do an action, consider how God did or would do the like, and do you imitate His example.”

General Rules as to Intention (from John Wesley’s diary)
  1. In every act reflect on the end.
  2. Begin every action in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
  3. Begin every important work with prayer.
  4. Do not leave off a duty because you are tempted to do it.
General Rules for Employing time (from John Wesley’s diary)
  1. Begin and end every day with God; sleep not immoderately.
  2. Be diligent in your calling.
  3. Employ all spare hours in religion, as able.
  4. And all holidays (holy days).
  5. Avoid drunkards and busybodies.
  6. Avoid curiosity, and all useless employments and knowledge.
  7. Examine yourself every night.
  8. Never on any account pass a day without setting aside at least an hour for devotion.
  9. Avoid all manner of passion.
  10. Avoid all manner of passion.
I found a great many unclean thoughts arise in prayer or devotion, and discovered these temptations to it:
  1. Too much addicting myself to light behaviour at all times.
  2. Listening too much to idle talk, or reading vain plays or books.
  3. Idleness, and lastly want of devotion, from which I perceive it is necessary:
    a. To labour for grave and modest carriage;
    b. To avoid vain and light company; and
    c. To entertain awful apprehensions of the presence of God.
    d. To avoid idleness, freedom with women and high seasoned meats;
    e. To resist the very beginnings of lust, not by arguing with them, but by thinking no more of it or by immediately going into company; lastly
    f. To use frequent and fervent prayer.
Spiritual Pulse Taking
Daily examination of conscience; a sample of the questions one would ask oneself:
  1. Did I in the morning plan the business of the day?
  2. Have I been simple and recollected in everything?
  3. Have I been or seemed angry?
  4. Have I prayed once an hour?
Temperance

The Methodists would practice temperance when eating. A list of rules from Wesley’s Diary:

As to Temperance, I resolve in eating,
  1. Taste only of two flesh meals.
  2. Only one slice of each.
  3. At each meal, fix your quantity before you taste.
  4. If possible help yourself last.
  5. When I have port, only port and water.
  6. Before you sit at full table, pray for help.
  7. In company, only a cheese and roots.
  8. After any excess, abridge the next meal.
  9. Only three dishes of tea in the afternoon.
  10. When sugar or cream in afternoon, no bread and butter.
I wonder how many Methodists of today follow John Wesley as he laid down his method?🙂
 
Nine_Two said:
What exactly is it you are saying his followers dumbed down?
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His modern day followers are Methodist, presumed correct. I know conservative and many “liberal” Methodists that openly accept homosexual marriage or relationships, abortion, etc. Once, one of my son’s friend’s parents had the audacity to send a book home with him from their catechism. :eek: Oh, my gosh… horrible. so based on my own experience, and knowing the family members believes, I believe that is now 'dumbed down". Meaning, that it no longer follows logic, reason or anything else reasonable. Believing in such horrible things like same sex marriage, abortion, etc. is ungodly and has no place in Christendom.
 
GKC said:
As noted above, if you follow the logic of Apostolicae Curae, Wesley would not be considered by RCs to possess valid orders.

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus
*
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Oh well, then I remembered incorrectly, I gues.🤷 What’s a girl to do?
 
CopticChristian said:
I think that John Wesley would be a tough act to follow…His Methods remind me of what it might be like to ba a monk. I see these methods as externals to accomplish something internal…and I suppose that is the purpose…

The Methodist Method

John Wesley (the founder of Methodism) taught that “a Methodist is one that lives according to the method laid down in the Bible”.

These are the methods of holiness used by early Methodists.
“WWJD?” (from John Wesley’s diary)

“Whenever you are to do an action, consider how God did or would do the like, and do you imitate His example.”

General Rules as to Intention (from John Wesley’s diary)
  1. In every act reflect on the end.
  2. Begin every action in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.
  3. Begin every important work with prayer.
  4. Do not leave off a duty because you are tempted to do it.
General Rules for Employing time (from John Wesley’s diary)
  1. Begin and end every day with God; sleep not immoderately.
  2. Be diligent in your calling.
  3. Employ all spare hours in religion, as able.
  4. And all holidays (holy days).
  5. Avoid drunkards and busybodies.
  6. Avoid curiosity, and all useless employments and knowledge.
  7. Examine yourself every night.
  8. Never on any account pass a day without setting aside at least an hour for devotion.
  9. Avoid all manner of passion.
  10. Avoid all manner of passion.
I found a great many unclean thoughts arise in prayer or devotion, and discovered these temptations to it:
  1. Too much addicting myself to light behaviour at all times.
  2. Listening too much to idle talk, or reading vain plays or books.
  3. Idleness, and lastly want of devotion, from which I perceive it is necessary:
    a. To labour for grave and modest carriage;
    b. To avoid vain and light company; and
    c. To entertain awful apprehensions of the presence of God.
    d. To avoid idleness, freedom with women and high seasoned meats;
    e. To resist the very beginnings of lust, not by arguing with them, but by thinking no more of it or by immediately going into company; lastly
    f. To use frequent and fervent prayer.
Spiritual Pulse Taking
Daily examination of conscience; a sample of the questions one would ask oneself:
  1. Did I in the morning plan the business of the day?
  2. Have I been simple and recollected in everything?
  3. Have I been or seemed angry?
  4. Have I prayed once an hour?
Temperance

The Methodists would practice temperance when eating. A list of rules from Wesley’s Diary:

As to Temperance, I resolve in eating,
  1. Taste only of two flesh meals.
  2. Only one slice of each.
  3. At each meal, fix your quantity before you taste.
  4. If possible help yourself last.
  5. When I have port, only port and water.
  6. Before you sit at full table, pray for help.
  7. In company, only a cheese and roots.
  8. After any excess, abridge the next meal.
  9. Only three dishes of tea in the afternoon.
  10. When sugar or cream in afternoon, no bread and butter.
I wonder how many Methodists of today follow John Wesley as he laid down his method?🙂
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I don’t care what anybody says, John Wesley was a holy man, a stalwart Christian, and definitely one of the greatest figures in Western Christianity.
 
theidler said:
I don’t care what anybody says, John Wesley was a holy man, a stalwart Christian, and definitely one of the greatest figures in Western Christianity.
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I care what anybody says and John Wesley was a man, a Christian and a figure in Western Christianity…🙂
 
Jerusha said:
The best of the leaders of the Protestant Reformation.
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Wesley was born nearly 60 years after the end of the Thirty Years’ War, I don’t really think he counts as a Reformation leader.

Incidentally, I’m a fan of Wesley, as well. I don’t agree with all his theology (what I know of it), but he had a tendency to try and get to the root of things. Many religious people could learn from that.
 
Catholic4Christ said:
Wesley was born nearly 60 years after the end of the Thirty Years’ War, I don’t really think he counts as a Reformation leader.

Incidentally, I’m a fan of Wesley, as well. I don’t agree with all his theology (what I know of it), but he had a tendency to try and get to the root of things. Many religious people could learn from that.
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He is not first generation deformation. He is Arminian and not Calvinistic. He provided a means to get “holy” and for that he should be credited. Many would do well to try and do what John Wesley prescribed. It is difficult however the method is worth looking at.
 
GKC said:
True. Apostolicae Curae is not clear as to the specific point the Succession is said to be “lost”, though the best conjecture is at the consecrationof ++Parker, in 1559. But it would certainly be before Wesley’s day, by RC reckoning, if that is what is being referred to, above.

GKC
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You’re more expert than I, but as I understand the logic of AC, succession was lost in a process, not a single event as validly ordained bishops died off and were replaced by bishops allegedly ordained under the invalid liturgy/intent. This occurred quite early in the Anglican history, under King Edward, no? Once the last validly ordained bishop died there was no valid bishop left to ordain new bishops even if the liturgy and intent was corrected (until the Dutch touch came along centuries later, but that’s another thread…).
 
manualman said:
You’re more expert than I, but as I understand the logic of AC, succession was lost in a process, not a single event as validly ordained bishops died off and were replaced by bishops allegedly ordained under the invalid liturgy/intent. This occurred quite early in the Anglican history, under King Edward, no? Once the last validly ordained bishop died there was no valid bishop left to ordain new bishops even if the liturgy and intent was corrected (until the Dutch touch came along centuries later, but that’s another thread…).
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A case can be made it was both a process and an event. The event would be the consecration of Archbishop Parker, in 1559, with the Edwardine Ordinal, under Elizabeth. Parker forms a sort of bottleneck in the Anglican Episcopate. But the process certainly continued, as other validly consecrated bishops (i.e., those consecrated earlier with the Pontificale Romanum) continued their offices, in their lifetimes. But they did so, using the Edwardine Ordinal. Hence the form they used, and their intentions, were deemed, in Apostolicae Curae, as invalid, and no bishops were validly consecrated from that point on.

After 1662, the change to the Ordinal removed the supposed defect, but, as you note, no bishops the RCC would consider validly consecrated were alive to use it.

GKC
 
PbloPicasso said:
His modern day followers are Methodist, presumed correct. I know conservative and many “liberal” Methodists that openly accept homosexual marriage or relationships, abortion, etc. Once, one of my son’s friend’s parents had the audacity to send a book home with him from their catechism. :eek: Oh, my gosh… horrible. so based on my own experience, and knowing the family members believes, I believe that is now 'dumbed down". Meaning, that it no longer follows logic, reason or anything else reasonable. Believing in such horrible things like same sex marriage, abortion, etc. is ungodly and has no place in Christendom.
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Individual Methodists may openly accept homosexual marriage, relationships, abortions etc. even “Pastors” however it is not officially accepted by the UMC. It would be naive to say there were not rogue Pastors or a certain “movement” within the UMC to advance these secular principles but they have not yet prevailed. They are likely waiting for a few thousand of the older generation to die off to put it bluntly but full of sorrowfulness. I’ll be Catholic be then HA! I’ve never seen a Methodist Catechism. Any examples that were particularly heretical?

From the current Methodist Book of Discipline:

Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion

Ceremonies that celebrate homosexual unions shall not be conducted by our ministers and shall not be conducted in our churches.

The practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching. Therefore self-avowed practicing homosexuals1 are not to be certified as candidates, ordained as ministers, or appointed to serve in The United Methodist Church.
 
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