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broski234
Guest
Which brings me to my next point. In the Jewish culture, they had a teaching authority (the magisterium), Sacred Scripture, and Sacred Tradition(oral tradition). So honoring all of the three legged stool, the Bereans where doing all three in Acts 17. They listened to Pauls Apostolic teaching orally (oral tradition), examined the scriptures (sacred scripture), and accepted Paul as their teaching authority as well as all of the Apostles (The Magisterium). Just as the Catholic Church does.Yes, Paul taught the Apostolic teachings and referred to the Scriptures (likely something similar to Peter’s sermons in Acts or what Stephen said to the mob)
I wouldn’t be too hasty to limit what th Bereans could glean from the OT-there was lots of information on the nature of God, the nature of humanity, all of it could be used to test the new teaching Paul was providing.
And, as you pointed out, once the Bereans had assured themselves that none of Paul’s Apostolic teaching contradicted Scripture, they accepted it (the Apostolic teaching and continued to accept the Scriptures) and believed.
Thanks for posting, you might find it helpful to read the entire chapter of Acts 17 to make sure that what you read in Ray’s article actually lines up with the text (see my comments above)
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Non_Serviam
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Interesting point you make-just one little catch with it. Paul wasn’t a part of the Bereans’ Jewish teaching authority. So they listened to Paul, checked with the scriptures to see if what he said was correct, didn’t check with the Jewish teaching authority (the magisterium) to see if they’d come to the correct conclusion and then accepted Paul’s teaching and authority on the basis of it lining up with their Scripture. So it isn’t an exact parallel to the model many Catholics suggest.
Thanks for bringing up that point about the Jewish teaching authority-it demonstrates even more that Ray’s explanation doesn’t properly exegete the text. It is likely that those who believed in Thessalonika didn’t feel a need to check with the local Jewish magisterium that led to jealousy on the part of that Jewish magisterium and subsequent problems for Paul.
That makes the Thessalonian Jewish response make more sense-they were jealous at losing their role as the official arbiter of Scripture and things religious and acted accordingly. Thanks for the insight.
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guanophore
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You missed a step there Non. Jesus transferred the seat of Moses to the Apostles. When He sent them with HIs authority, He empowered them to teach and make disciples. The Seat of Moses was taken over by Christ, and He left it with the Magesterium.
I agree. this is why the seat of Moses had to be taken from them, and given to the Apostles.
I think this same jealousy followed Paul everywhere, and eventually, to his death.That makes the Thessalonian Jewish response make more sense-they were jealous at losing their role as the official arbiter of Scripture and things religious and acted accordingly. Thanks for the insight.
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Non_Serviam
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I believe we’re pretty close on this one.
Yes, Jesus transferred the seat of authority, but He didn’t send a memo to all of the synagogues before the Apostles arrived there, so they still functioned under the prior authority.
Therefore Paul’s message had to demonstrate that Jesus was the Messiah and that the teaching being promulgated through the Apostles was now to be followed.
The Jews in Thessalonika (the non-jealous ones anyhow) and in Berea, evaluated this message based on the OT Scriptures they already had and chose to accept it because it lined up with those Scriptures. As a result they accepted Apostolic authority and ceased to accept that of the Jewish leadership.
They did this because the Apostolic teaching didn’t contradict the Scriptures they had.
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broski234
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No, the Apostles were the magisterium of Christ Church. Not the old Jewish authorityInteresting point you make-just one little catch with it. Paul wasn’t a part of the Bereans’ Jewish teaching authority. So they listened to Paul, checked with the scriptures to see if what he said was correct, didn’t check with the Jewish teaching authority (the magisterium) to see if they’d come to the correct conclusion and then accepted Paul’s teaching and authority on the basis of it lining up with their Scripture. So it isn’t an exact parallel to the model many Catholics suggest.
Thanks for bringing up that point about the Jewish teaching authority-it demonstrates even more that Ray’s explanation doesn’t properly exegete the text. It is likely that those who believed in Thessalonika didn’t feel a need to check with the local Jewish magisterium that led to jealousy on the part of that Jewish magisterium and subsequent problems for Paul.
That makes the Thessalonian Jewish response make more sense-they were jealous at losing their role as the official arbiter of Scripture and things religious and acted accordingly. Thanks for the insight.
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ralphinal
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A more logical question would be if PAUL had ever been checked against the other Apostles
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Pug
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I tend to think they were asking themselves questions like, could that scripture passage about pierced my hands and feet and for my clothing they cast lots apply to the Messiah, is it so that he was supposed to suffer, could the prophet who is supposed to come after Moses have predicted about destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up, and of course, most importantly, did they believe the witness of Paul or whomever else that they had seen Jesus alive and risen from the dead, that this Jesus guy really fulfilled what he said, that we could die and rise with him?
I think it makes perfect sense when confronted with a claim that X fulfills certain OT prophecies about the Messiah to re-examine those prophecies and think about how they relate to the current events in Jerusalem.
I think it makes perfect sense when confronted with a claim that X fulfills certain OT prophecies about the Messiah to re-examine those prophecies and think about how they relate to the current events in Jerusalem.
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Non_Serviam
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Indeed the Apostles ruled the church,. It is important to keep in mind that in these incidences, the people being spoken to were not church members and still considered themselves under the authority of the Jewish hierarchy. That’s why Paul went to the synagogues and preached the Christian interpretation of the Old Testament and the message that Jesus was the Messiah.
After the Jews validated his teaching by consulting the Old Testament and found that the Apostolic Teaching was in line with Scripture, the accepted the teaching and the Apostolic authority to teach it. They didn’t feel the need to consult their Magisterium to ensure they interpreted the Scriptures correctly.
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Non_Serviam
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We read in Paul’s Epistles that he claimed the same Gospel as the other Apostles-given that they crossed paths a number of times, if this was an untrue statement it likely would resulted in his writings being excluded from the New Testament
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ralphinal
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Exactly. Plus, we are also told that he met with the Twelve in Jerusalem, and Peter says that his writings, though difficult, are important.
So, if Paul teaches exactly what the others teach, does that mean that he teaches exactly what Jesus taught?
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Non_Serviam
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I’m a little wary of this word, “exactly”, could you clarify what you mean by it?
After all, Paul’s Epistles and Peter’s don’t use exactly the same words or phrases, so they aren’t exactly the same in that sense-I want to be sure of the sense in which you mean it.
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ralphinal
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Is it possible that there is anything in Paul that contradicts the teachings of the other 12, or the teachings of Jesus?
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Non_Serviam
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It is possible since there is one place in Scripture where Paul specifically says it isn’t the Lord speaking, but him, so that may be fallible, although I tend to think not.
There was a point at which Paul ran into conflict with those claiming to be following the teaching of James (it is unclear whether it was the Apostle or the Lord’s brother) which needed to be resolved by Council in Acts 15.
Likewise some would suggest the variety in the Gospel accounts is an example of contradiction, although for the most part these have been explained in a satisfactory manner.
Overall I would say that their teachings covered the same broad doctrinal themes although there might have been some variety in the procedural instructions they gave to the congregations that they or those with them planted.
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ralphinal
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ok.
The specific issue that you speak of had to do with if the Gentiels who become Christian were bound to the same rules as the Jews. Paul had confronted Peter because Peter had said publically that they did not, then he acted a different way depending upon who was around.
If we set aside procedure and look only at doctrine, and we assume that the Holy Spirit was leading those who wrote and assembled the NT, then we can say that there should not be any outright contradictions. Otherwise, our faith would be illogical.
Now, the Bereans checked the claims Paul made about Jesus with the OT, and saw that there was something there. THere is no issue with that for anyone. In fact, that is why the Church included the OT in the Canon of Scriptures at all. Further, the Bereans allowed the Holy Spirit to move within them. Again, this is something that we should emulate.
However, the idea that this proves Sola Scriptura (which may not be your claim at all) is not possible. Paul taught the Gosple of Jesus, Jesus did not teach the Gosple of Paul. Paul must be understood through JEsus, not the other way around. Those who say “Like the Bereans, we check against the Scriptures” are missing the fact that there WERE no NT scriptures for the majority of the First century, which means it was all taught by mouth.
Is it illogical to think that the First Century Church always assumed that the Faith would be Taught orally?
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broski234
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Patrick_Murebil
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Hi,
Thanks for noticing!!!
At the All-night Vigil for the Nativity of Christ, two canons are sung, written by the renowned hymnographers of the eighth century, St. Cosmas of Maiuma and St. John of Damascus. Both canons are saturated with sublime and profound thoughts, with beautiful images and majestic turns of speech: they are worthy of the solemnity of the feast.
“The theme of the canon of St. Cosmas is that Christ, having become man, abides also as he was, as God. The writer of the canon, imbued with this event, glorifies with rapture and reverence the God-Man Who came down to earth, ascribing to him the names, properties and actions that were attributed to him by the ancient prophets. The inspired writer arouses others to joy and to a worthy meeting with the newborn King of glory, beginning the canon with the words of St. Gregory the Theologian: Christ is born, give ye glory (from a Nativity sermon by St. Gregory the Theologian), **and at the end of the canon repeats the words of St. Chrysostom: A strange and most glorious mystery do I see. **Saint John of Damascus, in his canon, depicts those salvific actions that took place for the human race because of the appearance of the Son of God in the flesh, events clearly revealed in the New Testament. We present here only the Canon of Cosmas of Maiuma. “Canons” always have nine “odes,” but the second ode exists only in the canons of Great Lent.”
fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/nativity.htm
God bless all!!!
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Non_Serviam
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Non Serviam;4753062:
Actually I could be more wrong. I could confuse Paul’s Epistles with Luke’s account of Paul preaching to unbelievers.
In Paul’s Epistles he is indeed writing to believers. In the passage in Acts that is the topic of this thread, Luke writes that Paul’s preaching to some Jews caused them to believe in Jesus-therefore they must have been unbelievers prior to that.
Which means they would have accepted the Jewish hierarchy as their authority prior to their decision to believe.
I’d suggest you take a few minutes and review the passage before providing some more “enlightenment” on the thread. Thanks.
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broski234
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broski234;4754524:
Actually I could be more wrong. I could confuse Paul’s Epistles with Luke’s account of Paul preaching to unbelievers.
In Paul’s Epistles he is indeed writing to believers. In the passage in Acts that is the topic of this thread, Luke writes that Paul’s preaching to some Jews caused them to believe in Jesus-therefore they must have been unbelievers prior to that.
Which means they would have accepted the Jewish hierarchy as their authority prior to their decision to believe.
I’d suggest you take a few minutes and review the passage before providing some more “enlightenment” on the thread. Thanks./QUOTE
Which passage?
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Non_Serviam
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Acts Chapter 17 (NAB)
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When they took the road through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they reached Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.
2
Following his usual custom, Paul joined them, and for three sabbaths he entered into discussions with them from the scriptures,
3
expounding and demonstrating that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead, and that “This is the Messiah, Jesus, whom I proclaim to you.”
4
Some of them were convinced and joined Paul and Silas; so, too, a great number of Greeks who were worshipers, and not a few of the prominent women.
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But the Jews became jealous and recruited some worthless men loitering in the public square, formed a mob, and set the city in turmoil. They marched on the house of Jason, intending to bring them before the people’s assembly.
6
When they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brothers before the city magistrates, shouting, “These people who have been creating a disturbance all over the world have now come here,
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and Jason has welcomed them. They all act in opposition to the decrees of Caesar and claim instead that there is another king, Jesus.”
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They stirred up the crowd and the city magistrates who, upon hearing these charges,
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took a surety payment from Jason and the others before releasing them.
10
The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas to Beroea during the night. Upon arrival they went to the synagogue of the Jews.
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These Jews were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so.
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Many of them became believers, as did not a few of the influential Greek women and men.
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But when the Jews of Thessalonica learned that the word of God had now been proclaimed by Paul in Beroea also, they came there too to cause a commotion and stir up the crowds.
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So the brothers at once sent Paul on his way to the seacoast, while Silas and Timothy remained behind.
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After Paul’s escorts had taken him to Athens, they came away with instructions for Silas and Timothy to join him as soon as possible.
1
When they took the road through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they reached Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.
2
Following his usual custom, Paul joined them, and for three sabbaths he entered into discussions with them from the scriptures,
3
expounding and demonstrating that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead, and that “This is the Messiah, Jesus, whom I proclaim to you.”
4
Some of them were convinced and joined Paul and Silas; so, too, a great number of Greeks who were worshipers, and not a few of the prominent women.
5
But the Jews became jealous and recruited some worthless men loitering in the public square, formed a mob, and set the city in turmoil. They marched on the house of Jason, intending to bring them before the people’s assembly.
6
When they could not find them, they dragged Jason and some of the brothers before the city magistrates, shouting, “These people who have been creating a disturbance all over the world have now come here,
7
and Jason has welcomed them. They all act in opposition to the decrees of Caesar and claim instead that there is another king, Jesus.”
8
They stirred up the crowd and the city magistrates who, upon hearing these charges,
9
took a surety payment from Jason and the others before releasing them.
10
The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas to Beroea during the night. Upon arrival they went to the synagogue of the Jews.
11
These Jews were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so.
12
Many of them became believers, as did not a few of the influential Greek women and men.
13
But when the Jews of Thessalonica learned that the word of God had now been proclaimed by Paul in Beroea also, they came there too to cause a commotion and stir up the crowds.
14
So the brothers at once sent Paul on his way to the seacoast, while Silas and Timothy remained behind.
15
After Paul’s escorts had taken him to Athens, they came away with instructions for Silas and Timothy to join him as soon as possible.
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