J
jinc1019
Guest
Does anyone have any sources from the Church itself on how I should be handling this situation? Some brief comments have been cited previously but I would like something more firm if possible.
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K
Kay_Cee
Guest
This isn’t about me. It’s about you.
So would I be correct, then, in saying that you are not certain the Pope is not infallible (since, as you admit, you could be wrong) but you are skeptical?
Again, this is just a yes/no question, so you only need answer yes or no.
BTW, was that a Freudian slip, calling both of us infallible?
J
jinc1019
Guest
I am not certain.This isn’t about me. It’s about you.
So would I be correct, then, in saying that you are not certain the Pope is not infallible (since, as you admit, you could be wrong) but you are skeptical?
Again, this is just a yes/no question, so you only need answer yes or no.
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
Since you are, as you admit, fallible, is there any way to resolve your uncertainty?
D
davidv
Guest
CCC said:
I infer from this passage that a Catholic in good standing cannot defy any church teaching, particularly those that are dogmatically defined (of which infallibility is one).
J
jinc1019
Guest
There would need to be a reasonable explanation for Mathew 18, which clearly shows that Jesus granted infallibility to the other apostles as well as Peter. I have never read or seen a single good explanation for Mathew 18, including in the Catechism, from Catholic scholars, or here on Catholic Answers. I don’t believe there is one. Mathew 18 gives infallibility to the other apostles, and when followed logically, it disproves that papal infallibility has been passed down through apostolic succession.
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
Sorry, I meant your uncertainty in general, not just about this issue. Since you are, as you admit, fallible, how can you obtain certainty about any issue?
J
jinc1019
Guest
On certain issues, such as “Is the grass green?” the uncertaintty can be resolved by looking at the color of the grass. On the issue of “Do you love your wife?” then I can examine my internal feelings, my conscience, my passion for her, and can come to the conclusion that I do love her. On the issue of “Is there a God?” I can reasonably determine there is based on the great tradition of Divine revelation, by looking at the world around me, by praying and looking for guidance, and, of course, through reason and logic. Without God, the origins of the universe makes no sense. On the issue of papal infallibility, it would be exceptionally difficult for the reasons stated above. Short of Divine intervention or something from the tradition of Divine revelation, I could never accept this doctrine because I do see evidence to suggest that I shouldn’t believe it and I don’t see any to suggest I should.
J
jinc1019
Guest
Basically, uncertainty is not resolved in a uniform manner…it depends on the situation. I do believe it can ALWAYS be resolved in some fashion, however.
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
Since you are fallible, how are you certain that is the case?
P
Phillip31
Guest
What part of Matthew 18? I saw earlier you put 16 & 18.
J
jinc1019
Guest
Mathew 18:15, I believe. If you read that entire section, it is clear that infallibility is given to all of the apostles in this passage.
J
jinc1019
Guest
As I mentioned earlier…I am not certain…but the full weight of the evidence presented to me leans heavily in that direction and that is all I have to go on!
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
That’s all you have to go on? So you are left with uncertainty? (Just verifying
)
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
Let’s go back to your original struggle.
In any study of proposal we must ask what is known as the 6 w’s:
Who, What, When, Where, How, Why.
What are we talking about?
Communion
When was it established?
At the Lord’s Supper the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
Who established it?
Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Where was it established?
In the Middle East.
How was it established?
With bread and wine while they were gathered.
Why was it established?
By His Grace so that we could have life in Him.
Is there a proper way and improper way of receiving the communion?
Yes.
[bibledrb]1 Corinthians 11:17-34[/bibledrb]
How did this evolve into what we have today?
I don’t know.
Why would you be deprived on having life in Christ because you don’t agree with a doctrine that was established after the fact?
I don’t know.
You agree and confess the Creeds and you appear to be conscious to not take the Lord’s communion lightly. This is pretty obvious!!! You are giving it an incredible amount of respect by exposing your struggles with your conscience and wanting to be as obedient as possible.
I admire your honesty and respect for this Sacrament.
May God Bless you on your Search!
In any study of proposal we must ask what is known as the 6 w’s:
Who, What, When, Where, How, Why.
What are we talking about?
Communion
When was it established?
At the Lord’s Supper the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
Who established it?
Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Where was it established?
In the Middle East.
How was it established?
With bread and wine while they were gathered.
Why was it established?
By His Grace so that we could have life in Him.
Is there a proper way and improper way of receiving the communion?
Yes.
[bibledrb]1 Corinthians 11:17-34[/bibledrb]
How did this evolve into what we have today?
I don’t know.
Why would you be deprived on having life in Christ because you don’t agree with a doctrine that was established after the fact?
I don’t know.
You agree and confess the Creeds and you appear to be conscious to not take the Lord’s communion lightly. This is pretty obvious!!! You are giving it an incredible amount of respect by exposing your struggles with your conscience and wanting to be as obedient as possible.
I admire your honesty and respect for this Sacrament.
May God Bless you on your Search!
J
jinc1019
Guest
I do appreciate the advice, but honestly, as an Anglican, you more than anyone must be able to sympathize.
J
jinc1019
Guest
Thank you again for your kind words and for the passage…I agree with this. I do believe I should be allowed to take the Eucharist and be apart of the Church, but the Church disagrees with this apparently, and out of respect for them, I won’t violate their decision.
D
davidv
Guest
I read Mathew 18. I cannot see anyone given the gift of infallibilty in this chapter, not even unclearly.
The Catholic Encyclopedia lists these references for scriptural support of infallibility:
Matthew 28:18-20;
Matthew 16:18;
John 14, 15, and 16;
I Timothy 3:14-15; and
Acts 15:28 sq.
I would recommend you read, or reread, the article here, because it appears that you operating under some false assumptions of what infallability is.
Infallibility means that the Church is protected from teaching error. Whether this gift was given to one, or all of the apostles, does not say anything about whether it is a matter of succession, or is given anew at each bishop’s ordination.
J
jinc1019
Guest
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”
That language is more clear than anything in Mathew 16 regarding protecting the apostles from teaching in error.
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