What do "LatterDay Saints" Believe?

[ex-mormon]

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Ex-mo, you did not answer my question about where you got the outline you showed? It is not what we believe, but has some truth, so it is very confusing and misleading. Can you or will you tell us where it came from?

BJ,

Sorry I have not have not had time to look at the posts, that is why I did not answer your questions. I found this from the link that BDawg supplied in an earlier post. The debate between Catholic Apologist Steve Clifford and Mormon Apologist Barry Bickmore:

Originally posted by BDawg
Hi searcher,

You mentioned that you were not sure if there was an apostasy, or not. I thought you might be interested in an internet debate on this very issue that took place between a Mormon and a Catholic ex-Mormon. You can find it here:

transporter.com/Apologia/lds_rcc/index.html

It also discusses at great length whose teachings are closest to the original Christian Church, etc.

BDawg

I hope that helps.

God bless,

ex-mo

 

[Tmaque]

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As I understand it the Sons of Perdition are those who knew God and denied Him. There are very few persons who can say they knew Him and denied they knew Him. You would have to have been very close to God and then turn away completely.

St Peter falls into this category. By LDS standards then, he would be cast into “outer darkness” because he denied he knew Christ three times.

 

[searcher]

To answer the question about what were talks and testimonies more centered on, I can only speak from personal experience. Other LDS may have a different outlook. When I first joined the Church 37 years ago most talks and testimonies centered around the truthfulness of the Church and the Book of Mormon, the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, and love for family. While these topics continue to be current there does seem to be more emphasis on a personal relationship to Jesus Christ, His Infinite Atonement, and the efficacy of His grace.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Would you class Peter with Judas Iscariot? Peter is the Rock of Christ’s Church. He holds the keys of the priesthood, and so he could not have denied the Holy Spirit in the same way that Judas did.

Do Catholics believe there are Sons of Perdition? Or is that only a LDS belief? If you do believe, then who would you say is going to be a Son of Perdition? If you know, I’m saying I don’t really know.

I understood it to be someone who knows just about everything there is to know about Jesus Christ/God/Holy Spirit, and then denies what he believes and turns away from God. I may be wrong, so explain what you believe, if you believe in Sons of Perdition.
Thanks, as usual I may be confused BJ

Ex-mo thanks for the answer, I will look at it on the web and study it more closely. I had seen something similar when missionaries came, but never remembered Joseph Smith being one of the Judges(first I’ve ever heard that) and a couple of other things were strange(that Temple marriage was the only requirement for the Celestial Kingdom) and no baptism, or all the other requirements. I will study it closer. BJ

 

[Malachi4U]

LDS beliefs change to whatever is popular that day. The President (Mormon Pres that is) can change beliefs any time. Boy, what a religion. They are very Protestant indeed.

On the good side, I know numerous Mormons and all of them are good people and try to be loyal to Christ (and Smith too! ). They follow Jesus as they have interpreted what He said. Just like Baptists and Lutherans and Branch Davidians, etc…

Jesus came to save us all and we are all brothers and sisters. Jesus loves us all and we should love each other too.

 

[Malachi4U]

What do the LDS believe?

Be more specific. As of what date and time?

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Malachi4U:

LDS beliefs change to whatever is popular that day. The President (Mormon Pres that is) can change beliefs any time. Boy, what a religion. They are very Protestant indeed.

On the good side, I know numerous Mormons and all of them are good people and try to be loyal to Christ (and Smith too! ). They follow Jesus as they have interpreted what He said. Just like Baptists and Lutherans and Branch Davidians, etc…

Jesus came to save us all and we are all brothers and sisters. Jesus loves us all and we should love each other too.

I guess we are all the same then, Catholics have to juggle Mary, the Trinity and all the Saints who ever lived. Did you watch CNN with all the people up in arms over the new Pope, specifically 3 nuns among others. One nun said the new pope has the worst record of any of the cardinals. Then some of the priests said that the Catholic church was going to continue its downward spiral with the new Pope, and unless they got someone more up to date with the new morality, they were doomed. They had many Catholics wanting change, as one gay guy said he is very disappointed that this pope does not want gays to be married and that birth control probably wont be allowed until they get another Pope who might change the rules. Some said they were leaving the church until a newer pope came along who would allow abortion and woman priests and priests to be married. etc etc etc. The newspaper said it was amazing that so many turned out for the funeral when no one goes to church anymore. They said it is down to 45% in Italy and less in other countries over the world. There was a church less than 20 miles from the vatican that had only a small side cubicle with only a few people attending mass. So, I wouldn’t be so sure that your church is not changing and has never changed. Others see the changes and still others are demanding changes. Pope Benedictine has his hands full to control so many differing views. God bless him and you.
BJ

 

[stargazer257]

BJ Colbert:

The only changes that Pope Benedict XVI would make are those that would be in agreement with scripture and tradition of the early Church. And since scripture and tradition is pretty much fixed, there is not much left to change.

Our new Pope will not be making these “sweeping changes” being called for by these nuns and priests on CNN because in his position he can’t! At least he can’t make these changes AND be the servant in the role that he was elected for and accepted. He can’t just make up new rules to appease the masses of Catholics. The rules are already there in the Bible in the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. He can’t make new prophecy, or changes to doctrine that are not supported by scriptue, and the statements he does make are most often to re-assert a teaching that has been around for 2000 years (i.e., John Paul II’s restating that women would not be ordained into the priesthood back in the mid-1990s, a teaching that has been in the Church since it was created).

It turns out that these “Catholics” that are up in arms are not in communion with our Holy Father and the Church if they are asking for these changes. As they don’t appear to agree with Church teachings regarding birth control, etc., they are ceasing to be Catholic. They may call themselves Catholic, but if they don’t believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church (and I mean all of them), and are not in communion with the Pope, how can call themselves that?

New morality? What’s a new morality? It sounds like a degradation of morality to me. They are just labeling it as new to make it sound “progressive.” I cannot be the one to judge them as God would, but I have a hunch that God would not like these proposed changes and the “new morality” that they are promoting.

Just helping to clear up that “change” thing…

God Bless you all and Benedict XVI too!

SG257

PS, sorry for the rant BJ, it wasn’t directed at you, I just get a bit fed up with the secular media and non-Catholics who try to tell the Church what they think God wants the Pope to do. They just don’t get it.:nope: The church should not be there to fit God into our lives the way **we **want to serve Him. It should be there to allow us to serve God in the way God want’s us to serve Him.:yup:

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Dear Stargazer,
Thank you for your answer, that is exactly what I think when I see these people criticizing their Church. If the Pope bent to the whims of the people, it would not be God’s church. These people don’t seem to think that it is God setting the rules, and those rules do not change with the wind. I liked your rant as it was my sentiments exactly, and I did not feel it was directed to me. I just wanted a Catholic view of what these nuns and others were saying.
BJ

 

[Tmaque]

BJ Colbert:

Dear Stargazer,
Thank you for your answer, that is exactly what I think when I see these people criticizing their Church. If the Pope bent to the whims of the people, it would not be God’s church. These people don’t seem to think that it is God setting the rules, and those rules do not change with the wind. I liked your rant as it was my sentiments exactly, and I did not feel it was directed to me. I just wanted a Catholic view of what these nuns and others were saying.
BJ

BJ,

I agree with Stargazer wholeheartedly regarding dissenters who claim to be Catholic. We have a word for Christians that don’t agree with Catholic doctrine, we call them protestants. The Church IS growing tremendously in countries and parishes where the conservative views are taught. The Catholic Church grew from 750 million in 1975 to 1.1 billion today. Most of that growth was in Africa where conservatism is accepted. In the local newspaper here in Salt Lake City they recently profiled a young parish priest who is staunchly orthodox in his views on contraception and is not afraid to preach it. Interestingly, his Parish has grown 300% in just one year. People desperately want something solid to believe in, something that won’t change. And, I believe people will flock to those preaching just such an orthodox message.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

I AGREE!!! BJ

 

[twf]

BJ: As I explained in my post, it is beyond the power of even the Vicar of Christ (the Bishop of Rome) to change the Tradition. The Church has changed, and can change, but the fundamentals of doctrine can not and have not. As I explained in my post, the Spirit can lead the Bishops and the Pope to a fuller understanding of the Faith, and the Magisterium (the living teacher…the bishops in union with the pope) presents the Gospel to each new generation in ways appropriate to their individual circumstances…the Faith itself, however, can not be changed by anyone, despite what the media suggests. Disciplines, on the other hand, such as celibacy, can be changed. The Pope is keeper of the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Mat. 16) and all the bishops have been granted the power to “bind and to loose” (Mat. 18)…so disciplines and practices within the Church can change, but not doctrine. I’ll give you a couple example of things that could someday be changed (and have been in the past) and a few things that can not ever be changed by man:
Changable:
Church liturgy
Priestly celibacy
Election of the pope
Means by which bishops are appointed

Unchangable:
The teaching that Mary is the Mother of the Church, and was assumed into Heaven by her Divine Son.
The teaching that Christ is the second person of the Divine Trinity, became man, atoned for our sin on the cross, descended to Hades, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven.
The teaching that Christ is literally present in the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist, under the form of bread and wine. (Jn 6, 1 Cor 11)
Etc.

The Tradition I spoke of in my original post can not be changed. This is the body of teachings the Apostles have handed down to us through the Bishops; however, traditions, with a small t, can and are changed by the binding authority of the bishops.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

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Twf, Thank You, You are telling me things in a way that the others have not really explained as clearly. I can understand a little better now. I had never heard that Jesus descended to hell after His crucifiction, and before His resurrection.

 You probably know that we believe He appeared to the people on the American continent during that time.  That is why when Cortez came to Guatemala and Mexico that they thought it was the great white God who had returned as promised, and gave him all their treasures and gold, and fell down and worshiped him.
 
Where does it tell that Jesus visited hell?  Can I find that in my husband's Catholic Bible?  I really appreciate the time you have taken to explain things to me.  I just don't know why no one else could say it so clearly, or maybe it's just that all the information I have gleaned from this forum is finally coming together in my mind.

BJ

 

[twf]

Hi BJ. Sorry! I forgot about my post, and didn’t check this thread until now. Ok, well first I’ll post what’s in the Catechism regarding this teaching…then I’ll reference Scripture (well the Catechism does that, so it may be enough):

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

631
Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles’ Creed confesses in the same article Christ’s descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead,
and shed his peaceful light on all mankind,
your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477

Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

632
The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633
Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell”—Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek—because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634
"The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635
Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life,” by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades,” so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him—He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488

IN BRIEF

636
By the expression “He descended into hell,” the Apostles’ Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil “who has the power of death” (Heb 2:14).

637
In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

Notes

Eph 4:9-10.

Roman Missal, Easter Vigil 18, Exsultet.

Acts 3:15; Rom 8:11; 1 Cor 15:20; cf. Heb 13:20.

Cf. 1 Pet 3:18-19.

Cf. Phil 2:10; Acts 2:24; Rev 1:18; Eph 4:9; Pss 6:6; 88:11-13.

Cf. Ps 89:49; 1 Sam 28:19; Ezek 32:17-32; Lk 16:22-26.

Roman Catechism I, 6, 3.

Cf. Council of Rome (745): DS 587; Benedict XII, Cum dudum (1341): DS. 1011; Clement VI, Super quibusdam (1351): DS 1077; Council of Toledo IV (625): DS 485; Mt 27:52-53.

1 Pet 4:6.

Jn 5:25; cf. Mt 12:40; Rom 10:7; Eph 4:9.

Heb 2:14-15; cf. Acts 3:15.

Rev 1:18; Phil 2:10.

Ancient Homily for Holy Saturday: PG 43, 440A, 452C: LH, Holy Saturday, OR.

 

[BJ_Colbert]

TWF
This is really very interesting, I have read it all and now will proceed to read the scriptural references. It is pretty easy to understand what you have presented. Thank You for taking the time again to explain and clarify these concepts for me.
BJ