What do Mormons believe will happen to Hinkley?

[PaulDupre]

You’re foisting a heretical interpretation on a text that, although ambiguous, certainly does not teach heresy. Here’s the proper interpretation:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, may achieve salvation through a baptism of desire.

It’s really very simple. The Church has always taught that baptism is necessary for salvation, and that there is no salvation outside the Church. Those immutable dogmas can and must be reconciled with the pronouncements of the Second Vatican Council. Otherwise, the church has fallen into heresy.

So do you believe that those who were born in ancient China, India or darkest Africa and never heard of the Catholic Church are damned to hell?

Paul

 

[Dauphin]

Except that it’s changed postion several times like I’ve shown between your quotes of past councils and the current catechism.

You’ve shown no change. I’ve successfully refuted your arguments by presenting the texts you presented in the light of Tradition.

Not even good old St. Thomas could believe that the current Catholic Church is** identical** to that of the ancients. The current Church looks nothing like the early Church at all.

What it looks like and what it is are two entirely different things. The Church is much bigger, and the practice has changed. However, the faith has not. Deny that, and you dissolve the unity of the Church.

You have to believe that the CC grew into its own from the early Church. It simply is nothing like it.

Nothing like it? Does the church hold the faith of the apostles, or doesn’t it? If it doesn’t, why are you part of it? If I felt the faith of the apostles was found outside the church, I’d go looking for it!

This is the most curious thing you’ve said so far. If the Catholic Church has no relation to the early church, what are you doing in it?

 

[Dauphin]

So do you believe that those who were born in ancient China, India or darkest Africa and never heard of the Catholic Church are damned to hell?

Paul

That’s a different topic entirely. We’re discussing the notion of what happens to those who are ignorant of the gospel. Since the gospel didn’t exist before the first century, this is quite a change of topic.

That being said, I suppose it’s possible that they had salvation in a similar manner to those Jews who died before the coming of Christ. The doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulla salus applies to the new covenant, and the Christian era.

Don’t take my word for it though, since I’m no expert on the matter. I hope someone can give a surer, orthodox answer.

 

[PaulDupre]

That’s a different topic entirely. We’re discussing the notion of what happens to those who are ignorant of the gospel. Since the gospel didn’t exist before the first century, this is quite a change of topic.

That being said, I suppose it’s possible that they had salvation in a similar manner to those Jews who died before the coming of Christ. The doctrine of extra ecclesiam nulla salus applies to the new covenant, and the Christian era.

Don’t take my word for it though, since I’m no expert on the matter. I hope someone can give a surer, orthodox answer.

Okay then,
How about those who were born into 8th century China or Africa? The gospel had been preached for 700 years, but not in China or most of Africa. Were those people damned to hell?

Paul

 

[Dauphin]

Okay then,
How about those who were born into 8th century China or Africa? The gospel had been preached for 700 years, but not in China or most of Africa. Were those people damned to hell?

Paul

Not necessarily.

As the Second Vatican Council says, those who, through no fault of their own, are unaware of the Gospel, but attempt to do the will of God through the dictates of their conscience, may achieve eternal salvation.

This statement must be understood in the context of Sacred Oral Tradition, which says that baptism may be achieved through desire, and that someone who is ignorant of the gospel may be united to the church through desire.

Therefore, those outside the Church who are ignorant of the Gospel may be brought into the Church through their desire to serve God, and thus may be saved.

 

[why_me]

However, when the legacy of this “prophet” has been growth and Mormon expansion at the obvious cost of leading millions of Catholics and other Christians astray–this is the wrong place to demand respect for Mr. Hinckley.

When the protestants entered africa and the catholics came to the Maya and the Aztecs they were responsible for leading many native cultures astray from their tradtions, at times, with force. And then of course, we come to the american indian who were more or less wiped out by christian piety.

And catholics and protestants are pointing their finger at mormons…

No one is forced to join the lds faith.

 

[ralphinal]

If I may try to clear some things up.

First, we are judged on what we could have known. God knows well who had the opportunity to learn about the faith. They are judged accordingly. Those who had no chance to learn are judged by a criteria only known to God. The simple point is that if they responded to the grace God granted them for their salvation, they are saved.

Second, no salvation outside of the church has several meanings, all of them important. Someone who KNOWS that Jesus was the Son of God AND KNOWS that he founded the Church cannot turn from either point without losing his salvation. Someone who only knows one of the two points, through no fault of his own, may still be saved if he acts upon that grace that God grants him. It should also be pointed out that part of the faith is the understanding that it is through the work of the Church that the news of salvation is spread. It is through the Sacrements that graces are spread as well. This doctrine was put forth BEFORE the reformation when it was thought (wrongly so) that everyone had heard the Good News and those who were not Catholic had chosen something over Christ.

Third, the issue of baptism is a complicated one. Babies have no chance to choose it for themselves. They are born into a state of origional sin, but they did not choose that state. Jesus said that you must be born again of water and the spirit. However, the baby had no choice. Is it fair or merciful for God to allow such as this to enter hell? Adults, however, have other issues. If they know the Christian faith, they MUST be baptised in order to be saved (not getting into forms of baptism). Again, someone who, through no fault of their own, does not know to be baptised or cannot be baptised is judged based on God’s criteria.

Let me say that ignorance of the law is no excuse. People who physically could not hear or learn about Christ have low culpability. Most people living in the Western World today do not have that excuse.

 

[tundramom]

Let’s get back to Gordon Hinkley, shall we?

As a former Mormon, I have to speak up on this one.

Only God knows the condition of Hinkley’s soul… we are not to judge… however we are also told that we “will know them by their fruits.” What are Hinkley’s “fruits”? Can you name one thing that brought people to Jesus? Anything? I sure can’t.

When I was still a Mormon, Hinkley appeared on Larry King Live concerning polygamy. Gordon B. Hinckley: I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal. It is not legal. And this church takes the position that we will abide by the law. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.
What about their DOCTRINE and COVENANTS which still have polygamy as a “neverending covenant” written in black and white?**

In the TIME magazine article went on to explain that “we don’t preach that…” when asked about man becoming a god.

I ask you again… What are Hinkley’s “fruits”?

He was, plain and simple, a dissembler and a liar.

May God have mercy on his soul.

in Christ
Steph

 

[PaulDupre]

Not necessarily.

As the Second Vatican Council says, those who, through no fault of their own, are unaware of the Gospel, but attempt to do the will of God through the dictates of their conscience, may achieve eternal salvation.

This statement must be understood in the context of Sacred Oral Tradition, which says that baptism may be achieved through desire, and that someone who is ignorant of the gospel may be united to the church through desire.

Therefore, those outside the Church who are ignorant of the Gospel may be brought into the Church through their desire to serve God, and thus may be saved.

Okay, so you admit that non-Catholic Christians can be saved, provided that they remain outside the formal bounds of the Catholic Church due to some invincible ignorance, rather than understanding but rejecting Catholicism.

Right?

Paul

 

[why_me]

Here is a nice tribute to Gordon B. Hinckley by Glenn Beck. Just scroll down a little and press the play on the TV:

glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/200/5127/

 

[Paul_G]

Let’s get back to Gordon Hinkley, shall we?

As a former Mormon, I have to speak up on this one.

This claim indeed gives you the right to speak your point of view only, is not necessarily a correct view in reality as many other faithful member see it.

Only God knows the condition of Hinkley’s soul… we are not to judge… however we are also told that we “will know them by their fruits.” What are Hinkley’s “fruits”? Can you name one thing that brought people to Jesus? Anything? I sure can’t.

I depends on what you call fruits, millions would say that he did indeed lead them to Christ, perhaps not the way you want though.

When I was still a Mormon, Hinkley appeared on Larry King Live concerning polygamy. Gordon B. Hinckley: I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal. It is not legal. And this church takes the position that we will abide by the law. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law.
What about their DOCTRINE and COVENANTS which still have polygamy as a “neverending covenant” written in black and white?**

Could you point out the verse please

In the TIME magazine article went on to explain that “we don’t preach that…” when asked about man becoming a god.

I don’t remember reading this, could you find the article quote that says this.

I ask you again… What are Hinkley’s “fruits”?

He was, plain and simple, a dissembler and a liar.

May God have mercy on his soul.

in Christ
Steph

I’m sorry you have to resort to this unbridled spitefulness. To those that knew him his was kind gentle, loving, with a profound thoughtfulness about the needs of others. He was a person that lived his live as a true example of how a follower of Christ should live and love as commanded by our Lord. This is the fruit that he has produced, attested to by millions it is indeed a bountiful harvest to lay at the feet of his Saviour, Jesus Christ

Paul

 

[Jerusha]

I really don’t think it is appropriate to judge Hinkley, one way or another. He was a product of the culture he was raised in. I refuse to make any statement one way or another.

I think the more important question is what are the things that could happen during the transition, and after. I personally see the possibility of a Rigdonite splinter. That would please me very much. Could end up HUGE, with liberal wards and branches joining, leaving the main church in SLC without any significant enrollment. :clapping:

 

[Prince_Hal]

Paul G, I have been a Mormon for over 20 years and currently a Bishop, though I am seeking to enter the Catholic church. I do not know as to what will happen to brother Hinckley. You are correct that we need to be charitable, but also need to call a spade a spade. In his mind he probably thought he was doing right by giving half answers, and misleading answers on others. In the end if the Mormon church is “true” as the Mormons say, then anything that leads a person to the LDS church, then it cannot be a lie or a part truth. But the bible does warn us of people who appear as sheep, but inside they are ravenous wolves.

So I would like to think that he did what he did in good conscience. But, what if he knew that the LDS church was led by an evil spirit ? In our Christian charity we must not be blind - we need to be as gentle as doves, but as wise as serpents.

ps: I am dreading church on Sunday. I go to the LDS church with my wife, who is true blue Mormon. The sacrament meeting will be all about Gordon B Hinckley and little about Christ.

God bless,

Hal.

 

[Paul_G]

Paul G, I have been a Mormon for over 20 years and currently a Bishop, though I am seeking to enter the Catholic church. I do not know as to what will happen to brother Hinckley. You are correct that we need to be charitable, but also need to call a spade a spade. In his mind he probably thought he was doing right by giving half answers, and misleading answers on others. In the end if the Mormon church is “true” as the Mormons say, then anything that leads a person to the LDS church, then it cannot be a lie or a part truth.

He was correct in his answers, and no he didn’t go into a great dissertation either. Considering the medium is was, as I see it, prudent. We have had discussions on this forum on the validity of the “milk before meat” teaching. Some say there is no such thing, and that the Mormons must teach every thought that anyone ever had to be “truthful” and “honest” in their teachings. However, it was of great concern to early Christian leaders that there was a gradual dissemination of knowledge lest their faith not be overwhelmed.

But the bible does warn us of people who appear as sheep, but inside they are ravenous wolves.

Well this brings us back to the question of fruits again. This depending on a critic’s point of view can be defined to suit their argument. However the only criterion for and definition of such fruit is found in the words of Christ, so show me from there, if you please why, his fruits, in your opinion, are evil and how is has lead us all astray.

So I would like to think that he did what he did in good conscience. But, what if he knew that the LDS church was led by an evil spirit ?

“But what if” this or that? What has he done to deserve your comment?

In our Christian charity we must not be blind - we need to be as gentle as doves, but as wise as serpents.

I think this particular scripture refers to our interaction with those outside the Church not inside.

ps: I am dreading church on Sunday. I go to the LDS church with my wife, who is true blue Mormon. The sacrament meeting will be all about Gordon B Hinckley and little about Christ.

God bless,

Hal.

So tell me what it is about Christ that you have not learned in the Church.

Paul

 

[tundramom]

Could you point out the verse please

Are you a Mormon who hasn’t read section 132? Here it’s ALMOST entirety from scriptureslds.orgI couldn’t post the whole thing because of length.

Please note the highlighted points:

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501–507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.
1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26–27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.
28 I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy Priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.
34 God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
35 Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.
37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word.
41 And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed.
42 If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant, and she be with another man, she has committed adultery.
43 And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a vow, he hath broken his vow and hath committed adultery.
44 And if she hath not committed adultery, but is innocent and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power, by the power of my Holy Priesthood, to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful; for he shall be made ruler over many.

 

[tundramom]

Post 2

45 For I have conferred upon you the keys and power of the priesthood, wherein I restore all things, and make known unto you all things in due time.
48 And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth, and to whomsoever you give any one on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings, and with my power, saith the Lord, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.
50 Behold, I have seen your sacrifices, and will forgive all your sins; I have seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape, as I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac.
51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.
56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.
60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

Good enough?
in Christ
Steph

 

[Paul_G]

I really don’t think it is appropriate to judge Hinkley, one way or another. He was a product of the culture he was raised in. I refuse to make any statement one way or another.

I think the more important question is what are the things that could happen during the transition, and after. I personally see the possibility of a Rigdonite splinter. That would please me very much. Could end up HUGE, with liberal wards and branches joining, leaving the main church in SLC without any significant enrollment. :clapping:

Jerusha, you have been reading to many conspiracy web sites

Paul

 

[Paul_G]

Could you point out the verse please

Are you a Mormon who hasn’t read section 132?

I guess not the way you read it.

Here it’s ALMOST entirety from scriptureslds.orgI couldn’t post the whole thing because of length.

Please note the highlighted points:

.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

Good enough?
in Christ
Steph

Thank you for your many verses and I think verse 4, unless you point to another, is where I think you took your comment from. The new and everlasting covenant is “marriage” where husband and wife are sealed together for eternity, plural marriage can be found within the new and everlasting covenant. However, plural marriage is not the new and everlasting covenant. As President Hinckley said it is no longer doctrinal for us to practice it. It’s time came and went. It was not illegal when is was begun and when illegal it was proclaimed to be ended, although it took time to be completely halted, and we do not except this kind of union now, so again where did he mis-speak.

Paul

 

[tundramom]

I guess not the way you read it.

Thank you for your many verses and I think verse 4, unless you point to another, is where I think you took your comment from. The new and everlasting covenant is “marriage” where husband and wife are sealed together for eternity, plural marriage can be found within the new and everlasting covenant. However, plural marriage is not the new and everlasting covenant. As President Hinckley said it is no longer doctrinal for us to practice it. It’s time came and went. It was not illegal when is was begun and when illegal it was proclaimed to be ended, although it took time to be completely halted, and we do not except this kind of union now, so again where did he mis-speak.

Paul

Why is it still in your Doctrines then? Don’t you, as a Mormon, believe that you will become a god and have many goddess wives IF you reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom?

in Christ
Steph

 

[Dauphin]

Okay, so you admit that non-Catholic Christians can be saved, provided that they remain outside the formal bounds of the Catholic Church due to some invincible ignorance, rather than understanding but rejecting Catholicism.

Right?

Paul

Correct. Even if they are not united to the formal bounds of the Church, they are united to its soul in trying to follow God’s commands. In that sense, their salvation is through the Church, which they have entered through a baptism of desire.