What do Protestants think about these verses?

[myfavoritmartin]

** Isaiah 22:22**

“And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”

the end result …
25b. the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that was upon it shall be cut off:

Is the church and all the members hanging on her going to fall away as well?
If any thing this speaks against a continual passing of the keys oh wait it says key (singular), just noticed that.
This key is referenced as well in Rev 3:7 (CHRIST himself possesse(s) it)

 

[joancrane]

I am sure they feel the same about the Gospels as Catholics or any other Religion do.

Some may not understand the depths of the words Jesus was expressing , in this gospel, but that is a hard one to grasp. Probably do not have the same appreciation of the Words as Catholics do but they have the Faith. It has been my experience most protestants “take it on Faith” , If the bible says it Then it is so, absolute.

Most have not had the priviledge of being taught, as when I took instructions ,with a Monseignor. He said He never met anyone with as much Faith.
For me I had all my questions answered and he raised many more. Maybe if we added a little more Protestant Faith and Catholic Instructions we would reach out and help more to find what they are looking for too.

I am greatful to My Monsenior for being there for me and my son.

 

[O.S.Luke]

I think its cute how forums of this type just ignore any real debate and just keep pounding some statement hoping if they pound it long enough, it will become the truth.
Such a statement is the following:

"Peter became the leader of the disciples. It is of enormous comfort to us all, as Peter went from being fickle and a denier of Jesus to being a leader."

absolutely false of course as any real student of the bible knows that Paul and Peter fought continually over the right of gentiles to hear the gospel and whether Paul was the 12th apostle.

While the other apostles were spreading out over the world, Peter was holed up in Jerusalem thinking the Gospel was only for the Jews. I expect the other apostles pretty much ignored him.

Peter, in fact, in his later life admitted his great errors and apologized to Paul over both issues.

As further proof of Peter’s lack of leadership, his writings are minuscule and almost doctrinally irrelevant compared to the writings of Paul in Romans and John’s writings in John and Revelation.

The sad fact is that Peter lead by bad example and arrogance more than any other if he was a leader at all.

None of these points will be truly discussed of course, out of fear of going to hell just to question basic RCC dogma. what a sad way to live.

The truth is in scripture and there for anyone that honestly seeks it and thirsts for it. teachers are great, traditions are ok, but traditions that conflict with scripture are wrong and should be abandoned.

I wrote that, and I am a Protestant. And you made my point about Peter being fickle better than I ever could have.

Thank you!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

As further proof of Peter’s lack of leadership, his writings are minuscule and almost doctrinally irrelevant compared to the writings of Paul in Romans and John’s writings in John and Revelation.

In light of that statement, I have to ask those who agree with it, what does it say about the absence of writing from Christ?

When the Apostles are listed by name, why is it Peter’s name always comes first?

Why was Peter, in discussions with Jesus, the one who spoke for the Apostles?

Why is it Peter called for Judas’ replacement, according to the scriptures?

Why is it Peter addressed Ananias and Saphira’s lie to the Holy Ghost?

Why is it, in his minuscule role, that it was Peter who was acredited with leading 3000 souls to Christ after Pentecost?

Why is it no Apostle challenged Peter’s statement of, "…God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe?’

Why does Peter’s name appear 195 times in the New Testament, more than all the other Apostles put together?

 

[Melkite_Sword]

Sure, God desires everyone but not at the same time. The twelve were given to Jesus by God while the 5000 were not just yet. There is a hierarchy - a structure or government - God is setting up for His kingdom, where “the first shall be last and the last shall be first”.

Jesus didn’t say “you’re free to leave”, he simply asked them - tested them - with his question; “Will you also leave?” They conveyed the answer “no”.

So then a question… what does he mean by ‘will you also leave’? doesn’t God give us free will?

I don’t think you understand something about the 5000 the gospel calls them his ‘disciples’, Jesus brought them to himself… these are same 5000 that he fed earlier in John 6… why did he preform this miracle and teach them?.. to waste his time?

And yes… God desires everyone at anytime… if you can provide a Scripture verse to prove me wrong please do so!

Again the following…

This is the rule: Not everyone is meant to understand the truth because not everyone will handle it the same way. Jesus knew some would understand while others were meant to misunderstand and betray him.

No… this is not a rule… this is your misinterpretation of Bible verse.

Exactly true, but listen to what you’re saying, Melkite…

Truly, it is The Spirit vs. **Carnal Thinking **

---

Here’s Princeton’s definition of “carnal”:

animal(a): marked by the appetites and passions of the body; “animal instincts”; “carnal knowledge”; “fleshly desire”; of or relating to the body or flesh; “carnal remains”.​

• Animals literally eat real flesh and drink real blood to stay alive, don’t they? And yet they still die.
• Most of us literally eat [animal] flesh and (for some) [animal] blood to stay alive, don’t we? And yet we still die.
• The early forefathers literally ate real bread to stay alive in the wilderness, didn’t they? And yet they still died.
• Many of the disciples following him wanted another literal, physical meal like the one they ate earlier.

Now, by your own admission thinking in “carnal terms” is incorrect in understanding the words of Jesus. Again, thinking in “carnal terms” is the wrong way to understand the words coming from Jesus’ lips. In other words we must understand Jesus’ words as they relate to the Spirit.

But you suggest:

a) Understanding His words as “literal flesh and literal blood = salvation” is Spiritual? And yet…
b) Understanding His words as “spiritual flesh and spiritual blood = salvation” is Carnal?

John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh [carnal understanding] profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you [the words Jesus just spoke to them about his flesh and blood], they [flesh and blood] are Spirit, and they are life [italics not mine].

And to this day, it is this the truth that many will not understand because God is still establishing the government [governing body] of his Kingdom. So my words are only for those who are supposed to visit this thread and read and understand them.

You don’t undrestand what im saying… i explained this in one of my previous posts. They were judging Jesus’ words based purely on reason and not faith. It would be absurd if someone told you to eat him, when judgeing based on reason alone… they needed to have faith in Jesus so strong that they would believe anything he said…even this… they didn’t because they put reason above faith… they did not follow God’s Spirit.

Peace

 

[Melkite_Sword]

James is preaching to an anti-nomianist crowd.

James is preaching to ‘the 12 tribes scattered abroad’…the Jewish Christians… I didn’t know truth changes based on audience!

Peace

 

[Jane11]

Do you think that a Protestant site would even wish to engage Catholics in any sort of discussion at all? The original poster stated he was not trying to “bait” anyone.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

James is preaching to ‘the 12 tribes scattered abroad’…the Jewish Christians… I didn’t know truth changes based on audience!

Peace

It’s a simple fact.

 

[Joshua27]

So then a question… what does he mean by ‘will you also leave’? doesn’t God give us free will?

God knows every single choice we’ll ever make…but that doesn’t mean he stops us from making them.

It is the age-old conflict: Free Will vs. Destiny

“How can one be free to make a choice if God already knows which choices we’ll make?”

The problem is we’ve been conditioned by the king of this world to believe in - value and identify with - “self”…so we believe that anyone who knows us - even if slightly - takes the power of choice from us, because “I think[choose] therefore I am”.

I’m an advertiser & Marketer by day…I can write ads that evoke motivation to make people buy stuff. And as I further test my ad copy it gets stronger and stronger to motivate more prospects to become customers. Am I controling these people? No. Have I taken away their power of choice? No. All I’ve done is set a condition where their “type” are more intrigued; more motivated than another “type”.

The real issue, as I aluded to, is the struggle with remaining ‘an individual’. “No one is like me! I’m unique! I’m one is 6 billion!”

…But ask yourself: does your mother know you? Doesn’t she know all of her children (I’m assuming you’ve siblings)? When you were younger wasn’t it as if she could read your mind…and had eyes in the back of her head? “How was she able to do this?” Well, (true) you are a new creature but you’re made from pieces of your mother and your father…and they know themselves, don’t they? Likewise, they know their family member from whom you may possess similar traits.

How much younger are we compared to our Great and Grandest Father? Similarly, aren’t we part of His great family?

We’re free to make our own choices…but our Father - a parent - knows his children.

I don’t think you understand something about the 5000 the gospel calls them his ‘disciples’, Jesus brought them to himself… these are same 5000 that he fed earlier in John 6… (a) why did he preform this miracle and teach them?.. to waste his time?

(b) And yes… God desires everyone at anytime… if you can provide a Scripture verse to prove me wrong please do so!

(a) No, Melkite, to fulfill the scripture. Remember that Jesus [the Messiah] had not yet been crucified as a Life payment for all sins during this time…and there was no reason for anyone to hate him yet…but now the case was building.

(b) John 6:64 - this is after the loaves & fishes, and after the flesh & blood talk, and after his “Spirit” explanation to the same 5000…

64 But some of you do not believe me." (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)

65 Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”

…Why would he make this statement unless people came to him who were not give to him by God? Jesus then clarifies who He [God] has chosen…

70 Then Jesus said, “I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil.”

No… this is not a rule… this is your misinterpretation of Bible verse.

Ok. How do you understand Matthew 13:11-14 to mean?

You don’t undrestand what im saying… i explained this in one of my previous posts. They were judging Jesus’ words based purely on reason and not faith. It would be absurd if someone told you to eat him, when judgeing based on reason alone… they needed to have faith in Jesus so strong that they would believe anything he said…even this… they didn’t because they put reason above faith… they did not follow God’s Spirit. Peace

And I agreed with you on that point, Melkite [saying, “Exactly True”], I then pointed out the fact that - today - many hold onto a carnal understanding of something mean to be (indeed) spiritual and caim it [the “carnal/fleshy” understanding of the substance] to be spiritual, while accusing others [who believe the substance is only “spiritual”] to be carnal.

 

[AwGusTeen]

I’ll bite - even though Imkingdad and folks like him will disregard the fact that we are being invited to respond and then will be attacked for our responses.

The fourth of seven signs in the Fourth Gospel. Very eucharistic in nature. Certainly more than a meal, it’s a feast, as in v. 10 where Jesus has the people “recline” (anepesen/anepese), not merely “sit” - which in some translations is poorly translated. Reclining was the posture of a feast, just as at Passover. Jesus is the bread of life and the bread of heaven, the gift of eternal life.

Self-explanatory. I don’t know many who would deny the apostolic tradition. My communion certainly doesn’t - scripture has to be viewed by the lenses of faith, reason, and tradition.

Peter became the leader of the disciples. It is of enormous comfort to us all, as Peter went from being fickle and a denier of Jesus to being a leader.

Paul’s testimony to the church at Colossae while in prison, for the people to find their faithfulness in Christ and in servant ministry. Paul had never been to Colossae and so his introduction to them is more personal and explanative than in some of his other letters. Anyone who serves Christ will suffer with him.

Faith without works is dead. That’s pretty clear. From my own Methodist tradition, John Wesley was fairly clear that works of piety (such as prayer, lectio divina, fasting, and the Eucharist), works of mercy (ministry to the poor, visiting the sick and imprisoned) were all, along with the sacraments, means of grace. His sermon is here, and he addresses works and faith towards the end of the sermon.

So… let’s see if people really want to hear what one Protestant thinks, or will now place all of the above on a tee and proceed to swing at it.

Wow - I’m really astounded at how you interpreted these verses – it appears (on the surface) that Catholics and Methodists have a great deal in common. See this was a good thread after all! Thanks:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

I would like to get your thoughts on these verses and in no way do I wish to question your beliefs. I simply wish to started a discussion done with an open mind.

Here they are:

John 6:53-58, 66-67

*“So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.’ After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Jesus said to the twelve, ‘Will you also go away?’” *

2 Thessalonians 2:15

*“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” *

Matthew 16:18-19 / Isaiah 22:22

*“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

“And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.”*

**Colossians 1:24 **

“Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh and I complete what is lacking in Christ’s affliction for the sake of his body, that is, the church”

**James 2:24 **

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Your thoughts?

These are what I would call “core” catholic verses, often used to attack the beliefs of noncatholics! When pressed to explain whether or not this first set of verses mean that one should be cannibalistic, in “eating” of the flesh, and “drinking” of His blood, the catholics say,“Of course not!” So, when they partake of communion, then they are not really eating His flesh or drinking His blood, it is a representation of those two! With Matthew 16:18, Jesus COULD be talking about Himself as the “Rock,” and He is giving Peter authority to administer the founding of His church(which of course are all who are in Him).James 2:24 is James’s opinion of what justifies a man! We know that God saved us to do the good works that He has planned for us; so why aren’t we doing them? Why aren’t we going forth and spreading the Gospel, we are all disciples of Jesus, not just the pope, or priests, missionaries and such! Colossians 1:24: All who are in Christ Jesus, are part of the Body, and therefore the church!

 

[1beleevr]

James is preaching to ‘the 12 tribes scattered abroad’…the Jewish Christians… I didn’t know truth changes based on audience!

Peace

]

And yet,James and Paul were at odds on the issue of faith and works! We know that it is not by works that we are saved! There is nothing we can do to make God love us more or loves us less! We cannot earn our salvation; it is a gift from God that we accept or reject!

 

[Art321]

These are what I would call “core” catholic verses, often used to attack the beliefs of noncatholics!

Please know that I would not use these to attack your beliefs in any way. That was not the purpose of this thread. I only wanted to know how your church interpreted them.

When pressed to explain whether or not this first set of verses mean that one should be cannibalistic, in “eating” of the flesh, and “drinking” of His blood, the catholics say,“Of course not!” So, when they partake of communion, then they are not really eating His flesh or drinking His blood, it is a representation of those two! With Matthew 16:18, Jesus COULD be talking about Himself as the “Rock,” and He is giving Peter authority to administer the founding of His church(which of course are all who are in Him).James 2:24 is James’s opinion of what justifies a man! We know that God saved us to do the good works that He has planned for us; so why aren’t we doing them? Why aren’t we going forth and spreading the Gospel, we are all disciples of Jesus, not just the pope, or priests, missionaries and such! Colossians 1:24: All who are in Christ Jesus, are part of the Body, and therefore the church!

I would like to ask you something. What do you think of the catholic church? I am not asking this to attack you, please know that.

 

[1beleevr]

I would like to ask you something. What do you think of the catholic church? I am not asking this to attack you, please know that.

]

As a whole, I have absolutely no problems with the catholic church! Before joining this forum over a year ago, I had met many a catholic(and some former catholics), each with his/her own idiosynchisies! Most were very open to solid, insightful discussion about things spiritual; while others turned out to be arrogant, rude and judgemental! This is of course typical of all mankind.I can’t(and won’t) tell you how or what to believe, and expect the same courtesy from yourself, and other posters! We are all Christians(for the most part) and should strive to edify rather than divide the Body of Christ:thumbsup: My comments regarding these verses, are derived from catholic posters from various different threads, some relentlessly pounding them into your brain1 Hey, like anything else in life, it’s a matter of interpretation! But as I alluded to earlier, the catholic church is a wonderful organization; but in order to convert, I would have to be a “cafeteria catholic,” as there are things I cannot agree with, such as going to confession, and calling the pope holy father! But, rest assured that I do love all my catholic Christian brothers and sisters:thumbsup:

 

[Art321]

]

As a whole, I have absolutely no problems with the catholic church! Before joining this forum over a year ago, I had met many a catholic(and some former catholics), each with his/her own idiosynchisies! Most were very open to solid, insightful discussion about things spiritual; while others turned out to be arrogant, rude and judgemental! This is of course typical of all mankind.I can’t(and won’t) tell you how or what to believe, and expect the same courtesy from yourself, and other posters! We are all Christians(for the most part) and should strive to edify rather than divide the Body of Christ:thumbsup: My comments regarding these verses, are derived from catholic posters from various different threads, some relentlessly pounding them into your brain1 Hey, like anything else in life, it’s a matter of interpretation! But as I alluded to earlier, the catholic church is a wonderful organization; but in order to convert, I would have to be a “cafeteria catholic,” as there are things I cannot agree with, such as going to confession, and calling the pope holy father! But, rest assured that I do love all my catholic Christian brothers and sisters:thumbsup:

Well, thank you for your honestly. May you grow more in your faith with Our Lord.

 

[Melkite_Sword]

]

And yet,James and Paul were at odds on the issue of faith and works! We know that it is not by works that we are saved! There is nothing we can do to make God love us more or loves us less! We cannot earn our salvation; it is a gift from God that we accept or reject!

Is the Holy Spirit confused? Is Paul more inspired than James?.. no… because Paul never taught the heresy of faith alone justification.

“Every athelete exercises self-control in all things…I pommel my body and subdue it lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified”(1 Cornithians 9:25-27)

“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries”(Hebrews 10:26-27)

“For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body” (2 Corinthians 5:10)

“who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek…13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.” (Romans 2:6-10,13)

Now lets see what Jesus said:

" “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."(Matthew 7:21)

“16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.””(Matthew 19:16-17)

"32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’…41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’… 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:32-46)

“43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.”(Luke 12:43-48)

We are not justified by faith alone or works alone, but “faith working through love”(Galatians 5:6), our works must be done in faith or they mean nothing. Our faith would be dead faith if we have no works done in that faith, works are what make our faith living, even the demons have faith, dead faith. read James 2:14-26 again and actually think about it.

peace

 

[1beleevr]

Is the Holy Spirit confused? Is Paul more inspired than James?.. no… because Paul never taught the heresy of faith alone justification.

“Every athelete exercises self-control in all things…I pommel my body and subdue it lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified”(1 Cornithians 9:25-27)

“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries”(Hebrews 10:26-27)

“For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body” (2 Corinthians 5:10)

“who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek…13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.” (Romans 2:6-10,13)

Now lets see what Jesus said:

" “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."(Matthew 7:21)

“16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.””(Matthew 19:16-17)

"32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’…41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’… 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:32-46)

“43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.”(Luke 12:43-48)

We are not justified by faith alone or works alone, but “faith working through love”(Galatians 5:6), our works must be done in faith or they mean nothing. Our faith would be dead faith if we have no works done in that faith, works are what make our faith living, even the demons have faith, dead faith. read James 2:14-26 again and actually think about it.

peace

]

Why would the Holy Spirit be confused? And about what? Never said Paul was more inspired than James, or vice versa I for one believe that Paul, in his teachings to the believers, was reminding them that it was not by their works that they were saved(Eph 2:8-9). And I do not believe that he taught salvation by faith alone(“we are saved by faith, through grace”) I would be willing to bet, that there are a number of churches today, which teach a message of salvation that is based more on works(“you haven’t done enough”) than faith+grace As for myself, because I know that I am saved, I am inspired and moved to do good works for my Lord! It isn’t like I have a debt to pay, Jesus paid that for me on the Cross! Works do not save us anymore than baptism does; but Hebrews 11:6 says,“For it is impossible to please God without faith.” Does this mean we should not do works? Heavens no! But, you have to get out of your comfort zone, and get to work for Christ; feed those homeless(you and me, not just certain members! And I wish you would quit using Matthew 7:21 to speak to who will enter Heaven and who will not Only God knows the answer to this one. There will be many, whom believing that if they call Jesus Lord, will magically be saved and enter into glory! And I reread James 2:14-26, and it hasn’t changed; same words as back then!

 

[1beleevr]

Well, thank you for your honestly. May you grow more in your faith with Our Lord.

]

And thank you, for the kind words! One of my favorite verses these days, is Phillippians 1:6.

 

[Melkite_Sword]

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Why would the Holy Spirit be confused? And about what? Never said Paul was more inspired than James, or vice versa I for one believe that Paul, in his teachings to the believers, was reminding them that it was not by their works that they were saved(Eph 2:8-9). And I do not believe that he taught salvation by faith alone(“we are saved by faith, through grace”) I would be willing to bet, that there are a number of churches today, which teach a message of salvation that is based more on works(“you haven’t done enough”) than faith+grace As for myself, because I know that I am saved, I am inspired and moved to do good works for my Lord! It isn’t like I have a debt to pay, Jesus paid that for me on the Cross! Works do not save us anymore than baptism does; but Hebrews 11:6 says,“For it is impossible to please God without faith.” Does this mean we should not do works? Heavens no! But, you have to get out of your comfort zone, and get to work for Christ; feed those homeless(you and me, not just certain members! And I wish you would quit using Matthew 7:21 to speak to who will enter Heaven and who will not Only God knows the answer to this one. There will be many, whom believing that if they call Jesus Lord, will magically be saved and enter into glory! And I reread James 2:14-26, and it hasn’t changed; same words as back then!

You said that James and Paul were at odds on the issue of faith and works. I apologize if I misunderstood.

I have a question, what if someone had faith, was ‘saved’ yet deliberately lived a life of sin?

Matthew 7:21 teaches that you have to do the will of God to get to heaven, not just believe in Jesus. I haven’t judged anyone with that verse, I’m merely proving a point. James teaches that ‘faith without works is dead… the demons have faith (they aren’t saved)’ thats why what justifies us is ‘faith working through love’ as the apostle paul tells us. and yes baptism saves us; John 3:3-7, 1Peter 3:21.

As for Ephesians 2:8-9, lets see what it says;

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Paul here is talking about the initial justification of the believer ‘you have been saved’ in greek this is the perfect tense, which denotes a past and complete action. Yes the church teaches that we are initially justified by faith, but we don’t stop there. We can lose our salvation, Paul tells us in Hebrews 10:26-27 ‘If we sin deliberately after recieveing knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of fire and judgement which will consume the adversaries.’ We must keep the commandments as Jesus told us, our faith must be ‘working through love’ as Paul tells the Galatians. as verse 10 of Ephesians 2 tells us ‘For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.’

Peace

 

[1beleevr]

You said that James and Paul were at odds on the issue of faith and works. I apologize if I misunderstood.

I have a question, what if someone had faith, was ‘saved’ yet deliberately lived a life of sin?

Matthew 7:21 teaches that you have to do the will of God to get to heaven, not just believe in Jesus. I haven’t judged anyone with that verse, I’m merely proving a point. James teaches that ‘faith without works is dead… the demons have faith (they aren’t saved)’ thats why what justifies us is ‘faith working through love’ as the apostle paul tells us. and yes baptism saves us; John 3:3-7, 1Peter 3:21.

As for Ephesians 2:8-9, lets see what it says;

“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Paul here is talking about the initial justification of the believer ‘you have been saved’ in greek this is the perfect tense, which denotes a past and complete action. Yes the church teaches that we are initially justified by faith, but we don’t stop there. We can lose our salvation, Paul tells us in Hebrews 10:26-27 ‘If we sin deliberately after recieveing knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of fire and judgement which will consume the adversaries.’ We must keep the commandments as Jesus told us, our faith must be ‘working through love’ as Paul tells the Galatians. as verse 10 of Ephesians 2 tells us ‘For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.’

Peace

I believe that baptism is a part of the salvation process, but does not in and of itself; save you! We are saved by faith through grace; washed by the blood of the Lamb. What would happen tosomeone who was “saved,” (regardless of religion or denomination) and had faith, but chose to sin deliberately? I would seriously question their salvationI mean, think about it; knowing what you know about Jesus, and how wonderful His love and grace are, could you consciously sin deliberately? I know I couldn’t! And please don’t misunderstand, just because I am a noncatholic. that I believe that one does not need works to supplement their faith I am just saying that too many people put too much emphasis on works, to where Christians feel inadequate, if they do not do enough “work!” I still contend that Matthew 7:21 speaks to those who have not followed the will of God, but hope to get in by calling Jesus “Lord!” I don’t know if I believe that it applies to us true believers in Christ; those of us who pick up our cross daily and follow Him