M
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What I meant was that I wouldn’t state that the Church saves, which is the way you put it. The Church, in and of itself, saves no one. Christ saves, by his suffering, death, and resurrection. We are saved by Grace alone though faith in Christ. The Church, ordained by Christ and empowered by the Holy Spirit, brings the means of grace to us.
Jon
So, do you use the Douay Rheims, or the NAB, or the RSV-CE?I am a Bible believing Christian and I believe it is the inerant and inspired word of God. But how reliable can the Bible be if each denomination wants to have its own translation. The Bible itself did not declare which translation is inspired. (Some)Protestants say the King James Bible is inspired but modern day translator claims there are over 200 mistranslations. Some uses the NIV, NRSV, New World, Contemporary and so on. So whose endorsement for me to follow? Whose tradition should I believe in what Bible to use? Which church endorsement is necessary. I can easily claim one translation and declare I was inspired by the Holy Spirit to choose it but who will believe? Is that how it’s suppose to be???I don’t think so… ask yourself what basis should we use?
Jon
S
Sarah_Angel
Guest
Scripture says that the Catholic Church is an exclusive institution much like that of the Pharisees?
lol
Most Protestants wouldn’t even go as far as saying that, because most Protestants are smarter and more respectful than that. At least, the ones I know.
M
mmmcounts
Guest
Very interesting. You claim that if you’re not Catholic, you haven’t received the Holy Spirit and aren’t guided by Him. Well, let’s try this out.
I am not Catholic. I am indwelt by the Holy Spirit. He guides me. And furthermore, the timing of this indwelling was not at all according to what a priest would typically tell you to expect.
What now?
R
RomanCath379
Guest
Also the devil works in mysterious ways too.
L
Libertarian_FL
Guest
I would point out that if such events were not written down they must not have been that important to the followers of The Way to know. I mean do we need to know every meal He ate, every town He visited and every word he said. Its clear John in this covered what the Holy Spirit moved him to include in that gospel.
R
RedBert
Guest
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person’s actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.
No credible person states EVERYTHING is found in scripture.
The actual position of Sola Scriptura is more like :
From www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0402fea3.asp
“Even the principle of sola scriptura (“Scripture alone”), according to the sharpest Protestant scholars, means that the Bible is the ultimate authority—above councils and popes and any tradition—but not that no commentary or tradition may be cited or utilized.”
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
“Sola Scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God”
“Whereas, therefore, in every question, which relates to life and conduct, not only teaching, but exhortation also is necessary; in order that by teaching we may know what is to be done, and by exhortation may be incited not to think it irksome to do what we already know is to be done; what more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For holy Scripture setteth a rule to our teaching, that we dare not "be wise more than it behoveth to be wise;” but be wise, as himself saith, “unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith.” (Augustine, On the Good of Widowhood, 2)
This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves. (St. Augustine, quoted from his (City of God, book XI, Chapter 3, online at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library server, at Wheaton College.)
**
the Scripture is the paramount , supreme , top , uppermost , chief , in a class by itself, AUTHOURITY to which we yeild in ALL matters.**
That’s what sola scriptura means: not that everything is in the Bible
No credible person states that Christ did NOT speak by word of mouth.
No credible person states EVERYTHING is found in scripture.
The actual position of Sola Scriptura is more like :
From www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0402fea3.asp
“Even the principle of sola scriptura (“Scripture alone”), according to the sharpest Protestant scholars, means that the Bible is the ultimate authority—above councils and popes and any tradition—but not that no commentary or tradition may be cited or utilized.”
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
“Sola Scriptura is not a denial of other authorities governing Christian life and devotion. Rather, it simply demands that all other authorities are subordinate to, and are to be corrected by, the written word of God”
“Whereas, therefore, in every question, which relates to life and conduct, not only teaching, but exhortation also is necessary; in order that by teaching we may know what is to be done, and by exhortation may be incited not to think it irksome to do what we already know is to be done; what more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For holy Scripture setteth a rule to our teaching, that we dare not "be wise more than it behoveth to be wise;” but be wise, as himself saith, “unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith.” (Augustine, On the Good of Widowhood, 2)
This Mediator [Jesus Christ], having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the Scripture which is called canonical, which has paramount authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves. (St. Augustine, quoted from his (City of God, book XI, Chapter 3, online at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library server, at Wheaton College.)
**
the Scripture is the paramount , supreme , top , uppermost , chief , in a class by itself, AUTHOURITY to which we yeild in ALL matters.**
That’s what sola scriptura means: not that everything is in the Bible
R
RomanCath379
Guest
ALL Protestants quote Augustine for some reason or other, what about the hundreds of other Early Church Fathers? Sola Scripture is “The Bible only”. That is what it means. To Protestants, anything else is not adhered too, otherwise they would believe differently.
R
RedBert
Guest
I actually included two sources that disagree with that , one from catholic.com and the other is from WIKI…
for ex: how to you feel when Protestants misunderstand the doctrine of Papal infallibility?
Papal infallibility is the “Pope is never wrong” That is what it means.
T
Teneas
Guest
Every Christian is Catholic. Every Christian domination, whether they admit it, or know of it, comes from the Catholic Church. Every domination, of Christianity, holds some facet of Catholicism, therefore in some way, you are Catholic. Whether it’s from reading the Bible, Catholic canonized, or from your use of the word Trinity. Welcome to the church!
M
MacDaddy
Guest
You can believe what you want, isn’t that what religion allows? What is important is that you don’t get traditions in the way of Gods purpose like the pharisees did. More importantly is one’s salvation or relationship with Jesus. According to the Bible most people are self deceived or deceived into believing they are walking with God when they are actually walking away from God.
M
MacDaddy
Guest
i am a Christian and I am not a Catholic and I am sure of that? Now what?Every Christian is Catholic. Every Christian domination, whether they admit it, or know of it, comes from the Catholic Church. Every domination, of Christianity, holds some facet of Catholicism, therefore in some way, you are Catholic. Whether it’s from reading the Bible, Catholic canonized, or from your use of the word Trinity. Welcome to the church!
T
Teneas
Guest
There is nothing more without an open mind. Taking things at face value without looking deeper is simple. I would suggest you find where your faith comes from. I would suggest you find where your domination comes from, if you have one. Christ did not want an united church made up of some invisible body that can not be seen or heard. I believe you…you have the Holy Spirit dwelling within. We all do if we believe even a small amount.
Edit: Course your first sentence is a question, so perhaps that is something that you meant more as a statement that came out correctly?
M
MacDaddy
Guest
Why would a denomination matter? Isn’t what counts is the relationships between God and the Christian? Does God not transcend artificial barriers like religion? The church has always had in each of its congregation those who are Christians and those who are not so how is the true church that worships in spirit and truth be visible? The visable church in our day and age is the building we see and is filled with Christians and non-Christians. Jesus never said there would be a visable building or institution, we are visable at the individual level by how we live out our walk with God, so that Christ is manifest in the lives of His sheep.There is nothing more without an open mind. Taking things at face value without looking deeper is simple. I would suggest you find where your faith comes from. I would suggest you find where your domination comes from, if you have one. Christ did not want an united church made up of some invisible body that can not be seen or heard. I believe you…you have the Holy Spirit dwelling within. We all do if we believe even a small amount.
Edit: Course your first sentence is a question, so perhaps that is something that you meant more as a statement that came out correctly?
R
RedBert
Guest
Well we don’t admit that: and you will never win a debate with a Protestant by claiming that “fact”.Every Christian is Catholic. Every Christian domination, whether they admit it, or know of it, comes from the Catholic Church. Every domination, of Christianity, holds some facet of Catholicism, therefore in some way, you are Catholic. Whether it’s from reading the Bible, Catholic canonized, or from your use of the word Trinity. Welcome to the church!
you sound just like Jews in John 8
“We are Abraham’s descendants”
“Abraham is our father,”
Abraham this and Abraham that…
bla bla bla
FYI:
“All of Israel is not Israel”
and the church that came out of the first Pentecost bares little resemblance to Catholic church today. and that is more of a fact than anything you just claimed
T
Teneas
Guest
It’s off topic, so won’t post more on it here really, but here are a few things you should check out if you are willing.
John 17:20,21,23
The World has to see; therefore, it must be visible.
~ Matthew 5:14
~ Matthew 18:15-17
“Tell the church” - which church?
Does doctrine matter…YES!
~ 1 Timothy 1:3; 1 Timothy 4:1; Ephesians 4:14; Titus 1:9
Can we divide doctrine into essential and non-essential…NO!
~Matthew 4:4; Matthew 5:18; Matthew 5:19
Is conflicting, contradictory doctrine okay…NO!
~ John 14:26, John 16:13; Malachi 3:6
Jesus established one church, which is visible and in which doctrine matters and does not conflict; this church contains the fullness of truth as revealed by God; all others have partial truth, at best…YES!
~ Ephesians 1:22-23
Church is the “fullness” of Christ
~ Acts 4:32
Believers were of one heart and one soul
~ 1 Corinthians 1:10
no dissensions, same mind and judgment
~ Philippians 1:27
one mind, one spirit
~ John 17:22-23
Christians should be one as Jesus and the Father are one
*taken from: biblechristiansociety.com/home.php
Yes, I took it from there, as it is the easiest, fastest way for me to post the scriptures. I could have well looked it up as well from my notes. However I think it does a great job of showing my point. Either way, hope this topic gets back on topic.
M
MacDaddy
Guest
Thanks - i’ll be leaving since I do not want to violate the rules which i read and sticking to a topic was one of them. i will look at that website as you have suggested…thank you.It’s off topic, so won’t post more on it here really, but here are a few things you should check out if you are willing.
John 17:20,21,23
The World has to see; therefore, it must be visible.
~ Matthew 5:14
~ Matthew 18:15-17
“Tell the church” - which church?
Does doctrine matter…YES!
~ 1 Timothy 1:3; 1 Timothy 4:1; Ephesians 4:14; Titus 1:9
Can we divide doctrine into essential and non-essential…NO!
~Matthew 4:4; Matthew 5:18; Matthew 5:19
Is conflicting, contradictory doctrine okay…NO!
~ John 14:26, John 16:13; Malachi 3:6
Jesus established one church, which is visible and in which doctrine matters and does not conflict; this church contains the fullness of truth as revealed by God; all others have partial truth, at best…YES!
~ Ephesians 1:22-23
Church is the “fullness” of Christ
~ Acts 4:32
Believers were of one heart and one soul
~ 1 Corinthians 1:10
no dissensions, same mind and judgment
~ Philippians 1:27
one mind, one spirit
~ John 17:22-23
Christians should be one as Jesus and the Father are one
*taken from: biblechristiansociety.com/home.php
Yes, I took it from there, as it is the easiest, fastest way for me to post the scriptures. I could have well looked it up as well from my notes. However I think it does a great job of showing my point. Either way, hope this topic gets back on topic.
T
Teneas
Guest
Didn’t see this earlier, won’t dwell on it on this thread. I will simply respond with this…I am not trying to “win” a debate. Your faith is your faith, for me to judge would be horribly wrong of me. I have a 2x4 in my eye, therefore I shall not point out splinters in others.
B
Brywan
Guest
I am now Catholic–but I can tell you what I would have believed as an evangelical Christian–Look at John 20:30, 31: “Now Jesus did many other signs in the persence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; *** but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.”***
As an evangelical, I would have said that the writer of the gospel of John deliberately chose (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit of course!) to record those events in the life of Jesus that would convince people to believe in Him. That was the stated purpose of his writing. Of course, John isn’t saying that he is including EVERY argument possible to achieve his purpose. He’s just picking and choosing what he considers the best arguments (again, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) to show that Jesus is the Christ. As an evangelical I would have dove-tailed this with scriptures like I Timothy 3:15,16: “from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus…”
I would have interpreted these scriptures to mean that *scripture *contains everything we need to lead us to salvation…
As a Catholic I still believe that God has provided us with everything we need pertaining to life and godliness–but the table He has spread is laden with a feast and He wants to give us more than just the bare essentials…
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