What do think of the previos Pope's beatification?

[baylee]

Pope John Paul was an equal opportunity offendor. While the right was offended by his position on ecumenism. The left was offended by his position on women’s ordination, abortion, euthanasia, gay marriage and priestly celibacy in the Roman Church.

It is one thing to critique the work of a saint, a pope or any other person. It is quite another to say that God has no right to save them and to use them. It is even worse to speak as if one knew the person’s soul at the time of death.

Remember the Good Thief. It was not his life that earned him heaven, but the disposition of his soul at the moment of death.

Does anyone here know the disposition of John Paul’s soul well enough to say that the miracle could not have been through his intercession?

If we cannot answer this question, then we have no right to question the miracle and no right to question the Church’s right to proclaim it to the world through a beatification.

Finally, Pope Benedict XVI knew John Paul intimately. He can take the same route as Pope Gregory IX took with Francis and Anthony or Alexander IV with Clare. They simply made a statement that everthing that people said about the holiness of these people was true, because they had seen their holiness with their own eyes. Therefore, there was no need for further inquiry, no proof of miracles, nor a decree of Venerable, or a decree of beatification. They proceeded to canonize.

Pope Benedict is not doing this. He can and it would be perfectly understandable if he did. We need to look at this less passionately and more in tune with the Church’s theology on the saints and the rights of the Pontiff.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

All very good points. Thank you. I understand that ultimately what matters is the disposition of JPII’s soul at the time of his death and I am in no way saying that I somehow know that. I converted to this faith under his pontificate so I have a special love for him.

However, lately I keep coming back to the Koran incident as an example. I just have a hard time believing that any saint in out Church’s history would have publically kissed a Koran. In fact, I would suggest that many martyrs would have died before doing such a thing. Dialogue with Muslim leaders? Yes. Kissing the religious book of a false religion? No. This was a public action, not something he did in his private life. He may very well have confessed that he was wrong to do this, but we do not know this. As a result, the world sees it as okay…as something a Pope should do…and it is actually praised in some circles. I disagree and I can disagree without hating the Pope.

 

[baylee]

No offense taken, JR!

I believe that I have until May 1st to question the use of heroic. Once Rome has spoken, the cause will have been finished, and I will assent. Anything could happen between now and the first of May.

I give you my word that I am not being smug.

I hear you maurin…and I especially thank the moderator in this room for not closing or banning members in this thread. Most of us have been respectful even though we may be questioning.

 

[maurin]

All very good points. Thank you. I understand that ultimately what matters is the disposition of JPII’s soul at the time of his death …

I am reminded of the parable of the man who hired other men to work in his fields. He paid the same wage to those he hired in the afternoon and to those he hired early in the morning. This parable, though, is not speaking of Sainthood, but of Salvation.

 

[simple_soul]

All very good points. Thank you. I understand that ultimately what matters is the disposition of JPII’s soul at the time of his death and I am in no way saying that I somehow know that. I converted to this faith under his pontificate so I have a special love for him.

However, lately I keep coming back to the Koran incident as an example. I just have a hard time believing that any saint in out Church’s history would have publically kissed a Koran. In fact, I would suggest that many martyrs would have died before doing such a thing. Dialogue with Muslim leaders? Yes. Kissing the religious book of a false religion? No. This was a public action, not something he did in his private life. He may very well have confessed that he was wrong to do this, but we do not know this. As a result, the world sees it as okay…as something a Pope should do…and it is actually praised in some circles. I disagree and I can disagree without hating the Pope.

*I know am late in this discussion and I have not read all of the posts but I have wondered a lot about this and I had a thought…
What if Pope John Paul II was not kissing the Koran as a way of professing it to be **the **True Faith but an acknowledgment of what elements of the True Faith that are in the Koran.
Please remember it’s just a thought…
*

 

[Indyann]

*I know am late in this discussion and I have not read all of the posts but I have wondered a lot about this and I had a thought…
What if Pope John Paul II was not kissing the Koran as a way of professing it to be **the ***True Faith but an acknowledgment of what elements of the True Faith that are in the Koran.
Please remember it’s just a thought…

I found this blog post by Father Joe Jenkins very informative. Some people here are trying to judge the motives of Pope John Paul II. It just cannot be done. He loved ALL, even the Muslims.
I am so happy that he will soon be beatified and I hope very soon canonized.

fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/debates/anti-catholicism/pope-john-paul-ii-kisses-the-koran/

 

[Hineni]

Thank you very much. BTW, I’m Brother.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

You’ve chosen a wonderful order! And also it is one of my favorite orders. Also, I had a wonderful prayer friend (Poor Clares of Reparation (P.C.R.)), age 75, who celebrated her jubilee, she was given special permission from the archbishop to celebrate it at the church cafeteria located across the street from where she lived – she has since pasted away but her story of becoming a Poor Claire was inspiring and she knew, as she said, that was her passion in life – her chosen order.
I tried communicating with the Franciscan monastery in the Holy Land so I could send a donation – but I had some problems with the transfer on their website. Also, so that you know, EWTN had several documentaries (series) about your order in Jerusalem, it was wonderful - I watched it a couple times. After watching it, I looked up more information about it - “CRISIS IN THE HOLY LAND “(click on this: LINK ) Find out how the Franciscan’s Holy Land Foundation assists the Living Body of Christ in Israel with schools, jobs, subsidized housing, and medical benefits and also another series “RESTORATION OF THE BASILICA OF ST. FRANCIS IN ASSISI”….

Many blessings, Brother!
Hineni

It means “Here I am,” and is mostly used when God personally calls on someone in the Bible to do something difficult and important. Abraham? “Here I am.” Moses? “Here I am.” It’s very complete and emotionally charged, and implies, “Here I am: ready, willing and able.”

……that is how I see (understand) the men and women who give up their lives for Jesus and also who have joined an order - it is in the “HERE I AM” – the responding back to God, and as I have seen Pope John Paul respond back with all Love and Passion for Christ and his people. You know, the day he was made Pope I can still remember the cheers in our house – and also the responding back from the people (as a whole). I believe, within me, that He was Vicar of Christ! Mary’s Pope – at that moment in time – we needed him….

 

[JReducation]

All very good points. Thank you. I understand that ultimately what matters is the disposition of JPII’s soul at the time of his death and I am in no way saying that I somehow know that. I converted to this faith under his pontificate so I have a special love for him.

However, lately I keep coming back to the Koran incident as an example. I just have a hard time believing that any saint in out Church’s history would have publically kissed a Koran. In fact, I would suggest that many martyrs would have died before doing such a thing. Dialogue with Muslim leaders? Yes. Kissing the religious book of a false religion? No. This was a public action, not something he did in his private life. He may very well have confessed that he was wrong to do this, but we do not know this. As a result, the world sees it as okay…as something a Pope should do…and it is actually praised in some circles. I disagree and I can disagree without hating the Pope.

To set your mind at ease, Francis of Assisi was known to have used the Koran in his preaching. We don’t know if he kissed it. But we do know that he referred to some of its content as “the holy words”. Obviously, he was referring to content that was consistent with Catholic believes. He was particularly inspired by its writings on Mary. He also made a treat with the Muslims in Egypt that has been honored to this day. They would allow the friars to pass through their territory to get to Jerusalem and Francis promised that the friars would not try to convert them to Christianity. He never promised that they would not preach by their holy lives and good examnple. But the treaty is still in place between the Franciscans and Jordanians, Egyptians and Palestinians. A separate jurisdiction of Franciscans was created called the Franciscan Commisereate of the Holy Land. It was founde shortly after Francis returned, but was canonically erect in the late 1800s or early 1900s. I believe that it may have been Pius X who canonically erected it. To this day, the friars do not proseletyze either to the Jews or the Muslims. They do work together on many projects for the poor and the victims of war. But that’s a story for another post.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JKirkLVNV]

An important read, I think:

JPII: A Trend of Confidence and Grace

catholicculture.org/commentary/otc.cfm?id=759

 

[georgewithfaith]

I am 41 years old and have lived in a time where our Church has experienced big changes. For example, when I received Holy Communion I was taught that we receive kneeling, distributed on the tongue and only by the priest. I was taught that’s the way it is and it will never change and we’ve done it this way forever. Then less than two years later this ancient practice suddenly changed. I felt disconcerted by such a change.

So regarding the Pope’s beatification, I am again disconcerted because of the speed at which it is being done. Before Pope JP II the Church took a long time, something like 50 to 100 years to beatify a saint. How many Popes have come and gone and left this practice intact. Then JP II decided to change the rules and speed up the process. Yet we must trust the leadership of the Pope and have faith that the Holy Spirit guides him. So no matter how I feel I put my faith in God and can accept the beatification of JP II despite the scant amount of time for consideration.

 

[Hineni]

To set your mind at ease, Francis of Assisi was known to have used the Koran in his preaching. We don’t know if he kissed it. But we do know that he referred to some of its content as “the holy words”. Obviously, he was referring to content that was consistent with Catholic believes. He was particularly inspired by its writings on Mary. He also made a treat with the Muslims in Egypt that has been honored to this day. They would allow the friars to pass through their territory to get to Jerusalem and Francis promised that the friars would not try to convert them to Christianity. He never promised that they would not preach by their holy lives and good examnple. But the treaty is still in place between the Franciscans and Jordanians, Egyptians and Palestinians. A separate jurisdiction of Franciscans was created called the Franciscan Commisereate of the Holy Land. It was founde shortly after Francis returned, but was canonically erect in the late 1800s or early 1900s. I believe that it may have been Pius X who canonically erected it. To this day, the friars do not proseletyze either to the Jews or the Muslims. They do work together on many projects for the poor and the victims of war. But that’s a story for another post.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Two thumbs up for your post and information! And also I agree with Roveau post, the thread was great and I am very thankful (also) for having participated in the discussion. Thank you, Br. JR.

 

[Hineni]

I am thankful for this discussion because I have learned a lot from it and I feel edified by it. A special treat was that it was a bit of a Br JR fest as well, his wisdom and knowledge has been of inestimable benefit to many of us CAFers… and who hasn’t been set on the right path in some way by Br JR in the past?

To answer the OP’s question. I think John Paul II’s proposed beatification for May 1 is wonderful news. I pray for his and Mother Teresa’s intercession every day.

Even when I was agnostic before I was converted back to the Church, I remember often thinking what a privilege it was to be on this Earth at the same time as two living saints, Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa. What a wonderful witness of faith and humanity they were to all the world, not just Catholics. They were an inspiration then as they are now and the sooner they become saints the better.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Personally, I’m excited about it. I profess that my daughter was healed because of his intercession. Too long a story to get into, but I give him credit for answer my prayers to him, before we were even Catholic.

 

[Ed_Normile]

In the first century, the Greek pagans were told that the supreme unnamed god they worship is Jesus Christ. By convincing the Muslims that Allah is God, the easier it is for them to accept that Jesus is the Son of God and thus come to Christianity, the same way the gentiles became converts back then.

By telling them they are all wrong and their faith is all wrong will just make them defensive, and thus the extremism we see today. No one wants to hear they are wrong, even if they are.

Did moses acknowledge the egyptian gods, or show them reverance, he reproached them and showed themn to be powerless before the One True God. I think the church recognizing JPII as a saint is worthy. I think he has made some mistakes, many saints have do so as well, St Peter denied Christ three times.

ed

 

[Ed_Normile]

And how many people would you convert by hurting them with the truth? By showing respect to other faiths, we show them that being Catholic is not about hating the others who got it wrong.

Maybe you do need to do your research to have a deeper understanding why the Pope did what he did and what he hoped to accomplish with it. Instead of just letting emotions run high and make judgments.

Jesus and the Apostles seemed to convert many people by telling them they and their actions and beliefs were wrong. I said earlier I beleive JPII has made many mistakes and that does not seperate him from any other Pope, there was only One who was ever flawless, and although he is being rushed into beatification I think its a worthy cause.

ed

 

[Ed_Normile]

Isn’t there are strong danger of religious relativism here? There are many good people who have been led astray by moral relativism. It is always important to remember that Biblical Truth is capitalized for a reason - and it is unchanging.

Take St. Thomas More for example. While lots of people thought he should just take the King’s oath and consider it meaningless in his own heart, he knew it was not meaningless to God.

Amen ! Great point.

ed

 

[Ed_Normile]

I have read a lot of things at CAF and especially in this sub-forum that have made me very sad. I think this thread takes the cake, though.

It is the Holy Spirit is at work here. What I believe or think or feel really does not matter in this situation. The fact that so many people, in a Traditional Catholic forum, are actually saying that the beatification of JPII is not a good thing, quite honestly, astounds me!

I am only four pages into this thread and as of yet, including your post, I have not seen anyone saying that JPII beatification is not a good thing. I have seen others saying he was not perfect, I have also made that point, and I have seen where others have shown instances where he has made mistakes as well as I have said, I still beleive there was only one perfect man and any Pope including JPII is only infallable when preaching ex cathedra, but I still do not see where you get people saying his Beatification is not a good thing?

ed

 

[ProVobis]

So regarding the Pope’s beatification, I am again disconcerted because of the speed at which it is being done. Before Pope JP II the Church took a long time, something like 50 to 100 years to beatify a saint. How many Popes have come and gone and left this practice intact. Then JP II decided to change the rules and speed up the process. Yet we must trust the leadership of the Pope and have faith that the Holy Spirit guides him. So no matter how I feel I put my faith in God and can accept the beatification of JP II despite the scant amount of time for consideration.

Fair points. In the supernatural scheme of things, it shouldn’t really matter if the process takes one year or several hundred years. Perhaps the longer time would allow for more objectivity, but if they have their reasons for not waiting, then we’ll just have to trust their judgement on this.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I am only four pages into this thread and as of yet, including your post, I have not seen anyone saying that JPII beatification is not a good thing. I have seen others saying he was not perfect, I have also made that point, and I have seen where others have shown instances where he has made mistakes as well as I have said, I still beleive there was only one perfect man and any Pope including JPII is only infallable when preaching ex cathedra, but I still do not see where you get people saying his Beatification is not a good thing?

ed

Did you read the first post of this thread?

 

[barb_finnegan]

To set your mind at ease, Francis of Assisi was known to have used the Koran in his preaching. We don’t know if he kissed it. But we do know that he referred to some of its content as “the holy words”. Obviously, he was referring to content that was consistent with Catholic believes. He was particularly inspired by its writings on Mary. He also made a treat with the Muslims in Egypt that has been honored to this day. They would allow the friars to pass through their territory to get to Jerusalem and Francis promised that the friars would not try to convert them to Christianity. He never promised that they would not preach by their holy lives and good examnple. But the treaty is still in place between the Franciscans and Jordanians, Egyptians and Palestinians. A separate jurisdiction of Franciscans was created called the Franciscan Commisereate of the Holy Land. It was founde shortly after Francis returned, but was canonically erect in the late 1800s or early 1900s. I believe that it may have been Pius X who canonically erected it. To this day, the friars do not proseletyze either to the Jews or the Muslims. They do work together on many projects for the poor and the victims of war. But that’s a story for another post.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I’ve already said this in a similar thread, but: THANK YOU, BRO. JR, FOR YOUR INTERESTING AND INSIGHTFUL POSTS! You make more sense than anyone out there!

Your mentioning St. Francis and his respect for the Moslems of his day (I didn’t know that he said what you quoted here about the Koran) reminds me of something I saw during my four visits to Assisi in the 1970s and 1980s. It was a plaque on the wall near a statue of St. Francis which holds a nest of live doves in his hands. The plaque was a replica of one that is in the Old City of Jerusalem. It said, ‘St. Francis Street’ in English, Hebrew and Arabic! You might say that he was ‘ecumenical’ before most people knew the meaning of the name!

I know that there are some traditional Catholics who do not like the fact that John Paul II will be beatified, and they’ll point to the ‘Koran kissing’ incident for starters. I don’t remember the circumstances in which he did this-was it on a visit to one of the Near Eastern countries early in his pontificate? I have no idea. I know that there was a lot of respect between him and many Moslem leaders, and there were Moslem representatives at his funeral.

 

[maurin]

Did you read the first post of this thread?

Ultimately, yes, you are correct, but that answer isn’t quite as simple as you make it out to be. I expressed my disappointment upon hearing the news, and in subsequent posts fleshed out my reasons. I also stated quite plainly that if and when it happens I will make my assent. I also point out repeatedly that my opinions are opinions, and unqualified ones at that.

Ultimately, I do not believe that all the previous Pope’s public manifistations of virtue can be described as heroic, ie, Assisi and other ecumenical gestures described in the thread, nor his handling of the sexua.l crimes of a very small percentage of the Clergy and Religious. Certainly his Traditional Teachings on the Eucharist in this day and age, as well as his defense of human life in all its stages were, especially in this day and age.

Ultimately, my opinion, nor yours matters. But there may be something to be gained in the rational discussion of them.