What do think of the previos Pope's beatification?

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If his cause goes all the way to canonization, it only means that JPII lived an heroic life of virtue and is now in heaven. None of this means he was a perfect pope. Yes, he made mistakes, but only God judges the heart. Look at King David and all the wrong that he did, yet the bible tells us he was a man after God’s own heart.

Likewise, in Story of a Soul, St. Therese of Lisieux wrote some things that weren’t doctrinally correct, yet she’s considered one of the greatest of modern day saints.

Given all the penance JPII had to do in his later years, what with his illness, I could believe he’s in Heaven by now.

Only Jesus and Mary lived perfect lives here on earth. 🙂
 
I’m not confused. Are you? I know personally no Catholics that are confused.

Perhaps that is the message of this thread. We tend to view such events through our own bias and preferences instead of rejoicing in Heaven. I do not think any of Pope John Paul II’s critics on the left or on the right, whatever that means, will change their own opinion of current Church politics, but this is Heaven we are talking about. Eternity. Surely this shouldn’t be a political football for every Catholic that thinks he has a better way of leading the Church than the Pope.
Apparently that’s what it’s turned out to be. Why should the process of his canonization take place before canonizing Pope Pius XII, for example? Why has the process become a criminal trial, where guilt is presumed? I think we as a society have been so caught up in such a judgemental climate that we fail to see the big picture of canonization from a spiritual point of view. This is heaven we’re talking about (a spiritual Hall of Fame, if you will) and the fact that the Church recognizes certain individuals should make us strive to be like them in the way it’s intended. In the long run it doesn’t matter whether the process takes or took one year or five hundred years.

I don’t want to sound biased as I’m also a Polish descendant, but this has nothing to do with what happened to the liturgy or abuses behind them. JPII did what he had to do and did what he was elected to do. He wasn’t a liturgist; he was a philosopher and a very well-liked one at that. And he received credit for bringing down much of communism. His pictures are still hanging in many places. Good for him. And God chose him to lead the Church for many years and he did that. But sainthood and the meaning of sainthood goes well beyond that. Can’t lose sight of that.
 
I am very happy! This is great news!
No, Pope John Pauk II was not perfect. No one is.
However he did a very good job.

But more importantly, I think I can trust the Church
and the Holy Spirit which guides the Church on this matter.
 
It’s already been said in various ways, but if the Church says he’s a saint, he’s a saint. End of story. We can comb through the history of all the saints who’ve gone before and point out their faults, but in the end they’re still saints. They’re there for us to be instructed by their “heroic lives of virtue.”

Most of the things you read about Pope John Paul the second in this thread point out the controversial things he did. Why is there not more discussion about the clear good that he did, in his writings and in his life? At this point I haven’t studied his life much, but I’ve read some of his writings and they’re extremely wise. I’ve also been impressed by the stories of his great humility and peaceful presence to all he came in contact with. He was a good man.
 
Nota Bene:

I do not believe John Paul II’s personal Holiness, love of God, love for the Church has been attacked, or even called into question. The debate over the last 40 some odd years has revolved around the documents of a self proclaimed pastoral Council which declared itself to contain no new dogmas. The present discussion is inherently linked to this.

According to the present interpretation of the documents of the Council, events like Assisi, which have been brought up by some, if not prudent, is accepted, and it may be remembered that the then Cardinal Ratzinger absented himself from the first event.

Popes are not infallible, per se, as someone above stated. They possess the charism of infallibility when teaching ex cathedra on Faith and Morals, and have invoked this infallibility.

I do believe that Canonizations are infallible statements, and although I will be disappointed if he is Canonized, I will most certainly accept it and will pray for his intercession. I do not apologize for my point of view. It is mine, and my experience of life has given me this point of view.
 
If his cause goes all the way to canonization, it only means that JPII lived an heroic life of virtue and is now in heaven. None of this means he was a perfect pope. Yes, he made mistakes, but only God judges the heart. Look at King David and all the wrong that he did, yet the bible tells us he was a man after God’s own heart.
Also it means that in some aspect the life and deeds of the canonized can be example for all Catholics all over the word. Catholics are supposed to search this good.

We believe in One, Saint Catholic and Apostolic Church
 
I was disappointed. I really believed Pope Benedict was taking the Church in a Traditional direction, but with the new Assisi and now the beatification, it is obvious that the status quo will be maintained.

That’s my unqualified opinion. Yours?
I am ecstatic over the beatification of John Paul the Great!
 
I do believe that Canonizations are infallible statements
Semel sanctus, semper sanctus. However, that doesn’t mean the saint can’t be removed from the liturgical calendar, such as St. Philomena, much to the dismay of many.
 
Personally, I’m extremely happy about this, and I have no doubt that pretty much everyone with me in seminary will be very happy. We have a few rooms with “John Paul the Great” stickers on them. Likewise, our computer room is full of pictures of him. Yes, the man was imperfect, as all humans are. He did things that were wrong, but no doubt he loved God and sought forgiveness.
 
Semel sanctus, semper sanctus. However, that doesn’t mean the saint can’t be removed from the liturgical calendar, such as St. Philomena, much to the dismay of many.
That, my friend, has an explanation that is really a practical one. The calendar only has 365 or 366 days, depending on the year. Therefore, the calendar is not static.

I’ll give you a funny example. A woman whom I know and love very much attended mass at one of our houses. When she came out she told the brother that he had make a mistake in the mass. The brother, being a very meticulous man was concerned.

She explained that she had prepared herself for mass by reflecting on the readings of the day beforehand. That the brother had not read the correc readings. It was a Sunday, October 4. The brother smiled and explained that Sunday, October 4 is the Solemnity of St. Francis of Assisi. Since it is the third highest ranking solemnity of the order, the readings, collect and colors of the day are those of the mass of St. Francis, because we follow the Serpahic Liturgical Calendar, not the Roman Calendar. The woman was then confused and asked if the Franciscans were Roman Catholic. This led to a catechesis on liturgical calendars and how they vary between the major orders and the different Catholic Churches. They vary from country to country. They vary from the Roman Church to the Chaldean and so forth. She was astounded. She has lived her entire life believing in one holy ROMAN Catholic Church. Rightfully assumed that there was one calendar and one set of rules for all.

Another example, is the daily mass. If you attend a parish administered by a major religious order, the daily mass follows their calendar. St. Philomena may pop up in some calendars, even though she does not pop up on the Roman Calendar or vis a vis. When she was on the Roman Calendar, she only popped up, if she did not cross with a saint of the order. In that case, the saint of the order took precedence. The only time that a saint of an order, national conference or local diocese is bumped is when there is a conflict with a solemnity of the Universal Church. This applies to floating solemnities such as Ascension Thursday. It does not have a fixed day on the calendar. If it falls on the feast of St. Dominic, just an example, the Dominican calendar would either move the Solemnity of St. Dominic to the next day or not celebrate it that year. THAT’S JUST AN EXAMPLE. All the solemnities of the Lord and of his mother take precedence. Please don’t think that I just bumped St. Dominic.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
She explained that she had prepared herself for mass by reflecting on the readings of the day beforehand. That the brother had not read the correc readings. It was a Sunday, October 4. The brother smiled and explained that Sunday, October 4 is the Solemnity of St. Francis of Assisi. Since it is the third highest ranking solemnity of the order, the readings, collect and colors of the day are those of the mass of St. Francis, because we follow the Serpahic Liturgical Calendar, not the Roman Calendar. The woman was then confused and asked if the Franciscans were Roman Catholic.
Br JR, I don’t know what the rules are for religious order Masses, so can’t multiple collects (as well as secrets, and postcommunion prayers) be said on those days where you have an overlap of propers? Just asking.
 
Apparently that’s what it’s turned out to be. Why should the process of his canonization take place before canonizing Pope Pius XII, for example? Why has the process become a criminal trial, where guilt is presumed? I think we as a society have been so caught up in such a judgemental climate that we fail to see the big picture of canonization from a spiritual point of view. This is heaven we’re talking about (a spiritual Hall of Fame, if you will) and the fact that the Church recognizes certain individuals should make us strive to be like them in the way it’s intended. In the long run it doesn’t matter whether the process takes or took one year or five hundred years. **I assume that the Holy See is still investigating the miracle attributed to Ven. Pius XII that was reported last January. The investigation of Ven. John Paul II’s miracle, which I believe occured chronologically before that of VPXII, was complete. I also fail to see how the process for VJPII has been a “political football.” We’ve been assured that the same rigor has been applied in his case as in any other. **I don’t want to sound biased as I’m also a Polish descendant, but this has nothing to do with what happened to the liturgy or abuses behind them. JPII did what he had to do and did what he was elected to do. He wasn’t a liturgist; he was a philosopher and a very well-liked one at that. And he received credit for bringing down much of communism. His pictures are still hanging in many places. Good for him. And God chose him to lead the Church for many years and he did that. But sainthood and the meaning of sainthood goes well beyond that. Can’t lose sight of that.
I doubt the Church has lost sight of what sainthood means.
 
I was disappointed. I really believed Pope Benedict was taking the Church in a Traditional direction, but with the new Assisi and now the beatification, it is obvious that the status quo will be maintained.

That’s my unqualified opinion. Yours?
maybe I am jumping to conclusions, but what I am gathering from your posts that you didn’t approve of John Paul II? I do love the fact the fact he is going to be beatified. He was a great influence. I also have high regards to previous Popes especially Pius XII and Leo XIII. I still believe that Pope Benedict is still taking the Church in a Traditional direction. Can you elaborate a bit more on the “new Assisi” I am not quite getting your point on that one.
 
maybe I am jumping to conclusions, but what I am gathering from your posts that you didn’t approve of John Paul II? I do love the fact the fact he is going to be beatified. He was a great influence. I also have high regards to previous Popes especially Pius XII and Leo XIII. I still believe that Pope Benedict is still taking the Church in a Traditional direction. Can you elaborate a bit more on the “new Assisi” I am not quite getting your point on that one.
I believe you may be jumping to conclusions.

There is a third “ecumenical” gathering planned for Assisi on the 25th anniversary of the first one.
 
I believe you may be jumping to conclusions.

There is a third “ecumenical” gathering planned for Assisi on the 25th anniversary of the first one.
ok. May I ask where you are getting resources??? Hopefully not fisheaters. What about JP II’s pontificate would cause you doubts for his beatification???
 
ok. May I ask where you are getting resources??? Hopefully not fisheaters. What about JP II’s pontificate would cause you doubts for his beatification???
I’m an adult. I form my own opinions based on experienceand good catechesis. Fisheaters, although I steer clear of the forum, is an excellent resource for information.

It isn’t necessarily the previous Pope himself I have issues with, rather the false ecumenism and devestated doctrines which resulted from the Council. See my first post at the top of page three if you would like further clarification.
 
Br JR, I don’t know what the rules are for religious order Masses, so can’t multiple collects (as well as secrets, and postcommunion prayers) be said on those days where you have an overlap of propers? Just asking.
I don’t know about other orders. Those orders that have their own missal also have their own rubrics. In our rubrics you can only use the one allowed by the Franciscan Council of Ministers General. They put together the calendar and the ordo missae for all of the Franciscan orders. Of course, it was approved by the Holy See.
I’m an adult. I form my own opinions based on experienceand good catechesis. Fisheaters, although I steer clear of the forum, is an excellent resource for information.

It isn’t necessarily the previous Pope himself I have issues with, rather the false ecumenism and devestated doctrines which resulted from the Council. See my first post at the top of page three if you would like further clarification.
To be a saint the criteria are very simple. One must have exercised extraordinary faith and charity. One’s life of prayer has to be exemplary. The individual must have shown remorse and contrition for his or her sins. The perosn’s life of virtue must be extraordinary, even if it’s on a continuum, which is the case with most saints. The individual must be in full communion with the Church.

The fact that there has been a miracle confirms what we had believed about John Paul, which is that he is in heaven. The Church does not beatify on a whim, nor does she beatify someone whom she doubts is in heaven. The difference between a beatification and a canonization is that the latter is an Ex Cathedra statement that the person is in heaven and the former is a statement by the Ordinary Magisterium.

As I explained before, a beatification and miracle are canonical requirements. Canonical requirements do not apply to popes. They are included in law so that everyone else knows what the pope does or does not do in certain situations, such as these. But they do not bind him.

John Paul’s sanctity is not affected by the Assisi gathering, whether it was a great success or a major catastrophe. Regardless of the Assisi gathering, the Holy Father was always in communion with the Church.

Let’s face it, John Paul was an “equal opportunity offender”. 😃 The women’s movement disapproves of this beatification because of his decree on women’s ordination and abortion. The gay movement has its complaints. Politicians have their own. He blasted Socialism and called the move to invade Iraq the most immoral act that the USA had ever committed. We have not heard from that side on these fora.

None of this add or delete from his extraordinary practice of virtue. It would be highly inappropriate for Pope Benedict to withhold the beatification, when there is a miracle that confrims that he is in heaven. Unless a grave harm would be done by making such a thing public, there is no other reason to keep this a secret. Then there is his personal knowledge of the man. They were very close. It’s impossible for Pope Benedict not to know many things about John Paul’s sanctity.

I pointed out that Pope Gregory IX canonized Francis of Assisi and Anthony of Padua without any formal inquiry, solely on his knowledge of them, because he had been their close friend for about 20-years. Alexander IV canonized Clare in the same manner. He stated that he had been her protector in life and had seen her sanctity with his own eyes. Both men said that everything that people were saying about these saints was true and did not need to be examined further. They knew it was true.

The case can be made here that Pope Benedict knows what is true about the sanctity of John Paul. He and John Paul’s secretary worked more closely with him than anyone else during the quarter century that he was pope. They had also worked together during the Council. This is not a historical figure to Pope Benedict. This is a familar person.

That’s what we have to see here. John Paul’s sanctity is not defined by his work, but by his life and the current pope does not need to read John Paul’s resume to know about his sanctity. In this case, the whole process of studies and miracles is almost a formality, given the relationship and the personal knowledge that the current pope has about the candidate. That would explain why Pope Benedict allowed the process to begin before the fifth-year after his death. Pope Benedict knew the outcome, not through some mystical revelation (which is possible), but more than likely through reason and experience of the man.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JR,

Although virtuous–I do not doubt his personal virtue, sincerity, etc.–and as an adult survivor of sexual abuse myself, I believe a case can be made against anyone, no matter how innocently they acted themselves, who was the head of any organization during a time of a proliferation of allegations of abuse, where it was proven that offenders were not removed, but shuffled around. I’m not sure ‘heroic’ would be the adjective that those in my position would care to use. Maybe only another victim can understand that point of view.

Sincerely, maurin
 
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