What do traditionalists think of LifeTeen Masses' appeal?

[ethelzguy]

After Vatican II, the saints & the Virgin Mary, have been reduced to mere afterthoughts throughout the Novus Ordo Church.

**I think this is an unfair, broad-brushed analysis. Mary and the saints are hardly “afterthoughts” in my parish, or the other parish that I frequent.

What does the form of Mass have to do with the status of the Blessed Virgin anyway? **

“In union with the whole Church we honor Mary, the ever-virgin mother of Jesus Christ our Lord and God. We honor Joseph, her husband, the apostles and martyrs Peter and Paul, Andrew, (James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon and Jude; we honor Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian) and all the saints. May their merits and prayers grant us your constant help and protection.
(Through Christ our Lord. Amen.)”

The problem is, that the priests…in my area, at least…do not use Eucharistic Prayer #1, but prefer the shortened version (EP#2)
& use it 100% of the time. Not the same at all.

As well, I have seen many priests use EP#1, but omit the lengthy list of saints. And besides, doesn’t the term “all the saints” cover this list? How is it “not the same at all”?

 

[CassiusLonginus]

You obviously do not know teenagers very well.

You say I don’t.

There are teens that are going to mass already, love the Lord, and all that. Thats great. That’s not necessarily who LT is ministering to.

I understand that. In another post I mentioned having been there myself at one time.

Yes, many many times, teens are actually “told” that they do not belong by the very nature of the people at other masses.

How 'bout an ethelzguy style response: I would love to see that documented.

But seriously, this can happen, I’m sure, but often enough older folks simply want Mass to be a time to worship whether it’s OF or EF or whatever. That doesn’t mean that everybody must be at the same spiritual level, it just means that where worship is involved we should give God our best. Abel, not Cain.

Feelings are NEVER EVER EVER invalid.

But at that age they are usually not valid either. Besides, I never said feelings are invalid. I just said that it’s dangerous to be governed by feelings rather than truth. Is this not the reason why there are so many ‘anti-Catholics’ in the world? They ‘feel’ that it’s this sinful, man-made institution, yet they haven’t logically approached the subject. Feelings are a reality, but so must logic (and especially charity) be.

It is so obvious that you do not know teenagers.

Again, this is your judgment against me.

It is NOT absurd for teens to feel unloved, especially if actions, words, etc around them are giving them that idea. THEY ARE TEENAGERS!!!

Again, feelings = not bad. Feelings’ government of self = bad.

We need to get them to church in the first place… which is what LT is trying to do. THEN once relationships are built and we get them going to Mass, then we tell them “to grow up”.

I disagree. There’s no need to cater the worship of God to anybody. We need to cater to God (and we all need to be a help to each other not stumbling blocks) which is why it is important to give Him our very best.

Certainly, PLEASE have an LT movement where kids can get involved with folks their own age, and have activities catered to them, but please keep the abuses out of Mass. Teach the kids to worship as is appropriate to God. I’m not against getting kids in the door.

 

[palmas85]

actually, the whole program lifeteen started because a priest heard from a teen who started attending a protestant church that he felt loved there and not at the Catholic church. LT provides a community to the teens.

IJust a quick question. What exactly is the founder of Lifeteen up to these days? Is he still involved with the interfaith worship services that he was doing for a while or has he come back to the Church?

Just wondering since you don’t here much about that remarkable individual these days.

 

[Matt33]

In my experience, The problem is not necessarily LT itself but maybe the fact that we youth ministers have to do a job that should be done by the parents and community LONG before this age. LT is done primarily as a Chatechesis to Confirmation. Or as our priest jokingly calls it, graduation. I have kids coming up to me 5 minutes before Confirmation asking for the name of a good saint. I have kids that say that thier parents suggested they choose MLK as a saint. When we have kids that strong in thier faith they are very helpful with the nights and with activities. LT has attempted to help the at home portion with parent oriented nights, but it is an odd commentary that several times on this thread people have talked about the teens bringing faith home, when home (parents) should really be bringing faith to the LT program.
It is so hard to combat non interested or uneducated parents and a secualar teen world that is worse than many here even realize, with only 2-3 hours per week. Help from home and help from other Catholics would go a long way to helping these kids deepen thier faith, and ultimately not need the fluff to be bribed by (lame, thier words) rock music, an entertainment mass, or pizza.
The saint issue is odd to me because lately in the US there seems to be a glossing over or outright ignoring of these treasures, many kids starting our program barely can name three Cannonized saints. We change that by the time they leave but there is deffinatly a paralell in youth ministry to the parable of the seed. And there is a lot of rocky ground out there for the youth.
LT is great but it isn’t a miracle worker… Mass is and that is why we should make sure that it isn’t being made out to be something it isnt.

 

[Matt33]

IJust a quick question. What exactly is the founder of Lifeteen up to these days? Is he still involved with the interfaith worship services that he was doing for a while or has he come back to the Church?

Just wondering since you don’t here much about that remarkable individual these days.

I am currious to the current status here too. I’ll I have heard is rumor.
BTW WYD is looking pretty cool so far.

 

[ethelzguy]

There’s no need to cater the worship of God to anybody.

From your keyboard to the Holy Father’s ears. But, that covers the entire Catholic spectrum, from “traditionalists” to “liberals” as well.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

The worship of God in the TLM was organic. Everything since VII has been manufactured. You can stay where you are. I’m going to keep ‘eating’ my ‘organic’ food…er something like that.

 

[JKS]

IJust a quick question. What exactly is the founder of Lifeteen up to these days? Is he still involved with the interfaith worship services that he was doing for a while or has he come back to the Church?

Just wondering since you don’t here much about that remarkable individual these days.

I definitely took that into consideration when weighing the merits of the complaints about Lifeteen. The life of the founder is very important in a movement this new.

 

[CradleCath]

I definitely took that into consideration when weighing the merits of the complaints about Lifeteen. The life of the founder is very important in a movement this new.

Issue Date: January 25, 2008

Life Teen founder begins independent praise center

By Patricia Zapor
Catholic News Service

The priest-founder of a popular church youth program who has been suspended from public ministry has established a nondenominational Praise and Worship Center in Mesa, Ariz., that is drawing hundreds of participants a week. The local bishop has warned Catholics to stay away from the services and not to support the center.

Msgr. Dale Fushek, who founded Life Teen, an international youth ministry program, has been on administrative leave from the Phoenix diocese since late 2004, when allegations were raised that he had engaged in improper sexual conduct with teens. A year later he was charged with several misdemeanor criminal counts of assault, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, and indecent exposure.

Some charges were dropped and the others have not come to trial. The Arizona Supreme Court is currently weighing Fushek’s request for a trial by jury.

The Praise and Worship Center has held a handful of worship services since Thanksgiving, attracting as many as 700 people for services built around the charismatic Fushek and a resigned priest, Mark Dippre.

ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2008a/012508/012508n.htm

 

[PrayforMallory]

These Lifeteen Masses are an abomination. They are an exercise in futility and desperation of a Church that can’t be taken seriously.

I should know, because I was raised in a similar type of setting (though it was Protestant).

Basically, it reduces Christianity to a feel-good trend, and like all trends, it’s destined to fade away. These kids go to Mass to socialize and be cool, and when it’s no longer cool, they’ll quit, sure enough. I can remember back when it was a mainly Protestant thing, and let me tell you, it was pretty much all about getting a girlfriend.

There was recently, for World Youth Day, a post on the Archdiocesan website that was intended to reach youth. It had a picture of this 40-ish guy (you know the type that tries to be cool instead of being an actual man) with dyed, spiked hair. He was shouting and point his finger in the camera’s face, like on a mountain dew commerical. I’m not joking.

His message was, and I kid you not, “Wanna get high? Try Jesus!” As someone who used drugs in undergraduate, let me tell you, he’s dead on. Using drugs is *exactly like the experience one has when one goes to Mass! *Of course he didn’t mention the Blessed Mother, the Rosary, the Saints, etc. That stuffs just not “swate.”

This is like something out of a satire. As a matter of fact, this has been satirized on SouthPark, Family Guy, King of the Hill, etc., and still the adults won’t listen. Young people go to college and lose their faith.

My children will never be allowed to go to these abominations. When I have a son, I’m going to encourage him to consider a vocation at a traditional order and stay away from the Novus Ordo world, which continually demeans itself to stay “relevant.”

And no my friends.

The Lord does not like emo.

 

[PrayforMallory]

As a 17 year old I can tell you one thing- a lax faith and a disgraceful Liturgy does not create an enviroment for discernment.

Amen.

For your encouragement in this debate:

“Therefore gird yourselves manfully and take up joyful arms for the name of Christ.” -Saint Bernard of Clairvaux

 

[PrayforMallory]

Lot of kids go to for Pensacola for Spring break too. It doesn’t mean it is a good place to go, and I would bet that a fair number that go to these lifeteen and such things go for the same reason. Hook ups. Sorry, but I’d bet you dime to a dollar thats the truth.

I was raised in a protestant version of this (they introduced around when I was 14).

I went so I could hook up with this girl.

Needless to say,

I was an atheist at 23.

 

[PrayforMallory]

You know what I find to be really sad about the whole issue of Life Teen Masses and Neocatechumanl Masses and Charismatic Masses and all the other innovative Masses and groups that we have these days? They can all be celebrated just about anywhere that a Priest is willing and available. None of them normally bear much resemblence to the Pauline Rite Mass except in bits and pieces and they all incorporate elements that the Pauline Rite rubrics don’t call for. They are all permitted in the great spirit of inclusiveness and making everyone feel welcome. You know modern ways of imaging God and all.

Yet the Traditional Rite that served the Church for so long, that created so many Saints and laid the groundwork so that these other Rites can even exist, is treated in most places like an unwelcome stepchild, shunted off to a corner where hopefully no one will notice and maybe just maybe one day go away forever. It is ridiculed, put down, satirized and spoken of in the most denigrating terms you can imagine on other forums and even on this one, yet that treatment it is generally accepted and is apparently considered OK and allowable.

Why is that? Something just doesn’t seem right about the whole situation. It really doesn’t.

It wasn’t right.

It was a satanic disorientation. Somehow priests can deny the Mass is a sacrifice, and yet be fine, and SSPX Bishops are excomm’ed?

Come on.

 

[ethelzguy]

These Lifeteen Masses are an abomination. They are an exercise in futility and desperation of a Church that can’t be taken seriously.

Fortunately for our teens, our Churches feel differently.

 

[PrayforMallory]

Fortunately for our teens, our Churches feel differently.

Being 71, you know exactly what it’s like huh?

When religion is a fad, it ends up being discarded like a fad. First the Novus Ordo, then the Charismatic stuff, now Lifeteen. What’s going to come next? What more can we do to dumb down our religion instead of providing the next generation with some actual substance?

 

[ethelzguy]

Being 71, you know exactly what it’s like huh?

Being 71 (this coming Friday), with six children, sixteen grandchildren, and decades as an employer in the business world, yes, I have a good bit of experience with young people and their rebellious tendencies.

LifeTeen is an opportunity to redirect some of that rebellion into a deeper faith for many of them.

Of course there is always the alternative. It gives me great spiritual sadness, to watch young people exercise their rebellion through religion, simply for the sake of rebellion.

What better way to rebel against “the establishement”, than to thumb your nose at the post-conciliar Church of your parents (and some grandparents)?

But hey, why stop there? Why not go all-out, and become sympathizers of the SSPX while you’re at it?

Having read thousands of posts here, there is a clear trend. Precious few young people posting here are embracing traditional Catholicism out of a sense of spiritual reverence and humility.

Sadly, the bulk of the pro-traditional posts from the younger crowd are laced with pride, anger, and rebellion. “We’ll show YOU…we’re right and you old folks are WRONG…”

If only we could all go back to our twenties…back when we knew everything.

 

[Matt33]

Being 71 (this coming Friday), with six children, sixteen grandchildren, and decades as an employer in the business world, yes, I have a good bit of experience with young people and their rebellious tendencies.

LifeTeen is an opportunity to redirect some of that rebellion into a deeper faith for many of them.

Of course there is always the alternative. It gives me great spiritual sadness, to watch young people exercise their rebellion through religion, simply for the sake of rebellion.

What better way to rebel against “the establishement”, than to thumb your nose at the post-conciliar Church of your parents (and some grandparents)?

But hey, why stop there? Why not go all-out, and become sympathizers of the SSPX while you’re at it?

Having read thousands of posts here, there is a clear trend. Precious few young people posting here are embracing traditional Catholicism out of a sense of spiritual reverence and humility.

Sadly, the bulk of the pro-traditional posts from the younger crowd are laced with pride, anger, and rebellion. “We’ll show YOU…we’re right and you old folks are WRONG…”

If only we could all go back to our twenties…back when we knew everything.

Precious few??? If you are involved in lifeteen in a regular parish you’ll find there are almost NO teens like what you describe. Having read a lot of YOUR posts I think that you just take whatever swipe you can at a traditionalist. It’s is rare that you don’t bring it up in a very odd manner. That being said I think the general tone and judgement you have coupled with your cynicism and anger lend itself to dicrediting a lot of your positions.
It hardly would be fair to start judging 70 somethings as rebelling at thier age by becoming cantackerous and cynical with a chip on thier shoulders, but that is exactly what you turn any issue into regarding traditionalists.

 

[Matt33]

What better way to rebel against “the establishement”, than to thumb your nose at the post-conciliar Church of your parents (and some grandparents)?

But hey, why stop there? Why not go all-out, and become sympathizers of the SSPX while you’re at it?

:

Rebelling against thier parents by honoring thier Great Grandparents, Great Great Grandparents, on and on for thousands of years??? Is there a huge flux of teens leaving thier families to drive miles away to go to an SSPX Church at 16 years old?? Is this some trend of which as a youth minister I am unaware?
How about giving them a little reverece and such to quell that thirst so they NEVER stray.
This is as odd as saying that teen like to dress like thier great great grandparents to thumb thier nose at the establishment. I can’t count the number of times I have been to the mall and seen those nasty teens barely showing an ankle.
Perhaps the People who brought us VII are just feeling guilty at the way in which it has been implemented or not implemented. At the way that it has been hiijacked by modernists, and instead of face thier guilt they defend it.

 

[ethelzguy]

Rebelling against thier parents by honoring thier Great Grandparents, Great Great Grandparents, on and on for thousands of years??? Is there a huge flux of teens leaving thier families to drive miles away to go to an SSPX Church at 16 years old?? Is this some trend of which as a youth minister I am unaware?

You’re mixing apples and oranges. The rebellious ones I refer to are here at CAF, not at the LifeTeen in my parish. The kids in our LifeTeen program are very reverent and sincere. They ARE drawn in by the environment. As they progress, they become interested in the Latin prayers in the Mass. But they are not rebellious toward the Church. They don’t stand around, criticizing the post conciliar Church. They don’t sit around declaring Paul VI to be spineless, or John Paul II to be a heretic, or Benedict XVI to be a modernist and traditionalist at the same time. I’ve never heard the kids in our LifeTeen program even comment about the SSPX or the TLM. Guess it’s because they’re focused on Christ and the Mass.

How about giving them a little reverece and such to quell that thirst so they NEVER stray.

They show plenty of it at our LifeTeen program. As I’ve stated before, some of these kids put their parents’ generation to shame.

This is as odd as saying that teen like to dress like thier great great grandparents to thumb thier nose at the establishment. I can’t count the number of times I have been to the mall and seen those nasty teens barely showing an ankle.

Teens find many different ways to thumb their nose at the establishment.

Perhaps the People who brought us VII are just feeling guilty at the way in which it has been implemented or not implemented. At the way that it has been hiijacked by modernists, and instead of face thier guilt they defend it.

Feeling guilty? Sounds like a traditionalist fantasy to me. There is nothing appealing at all coming from the angry, defiant, young posters here who viciously attack the Church as if they have all the answers and the current Church hierarchy is nothing but a group of mindless buffoons.

 

[Freshman88]

Being 71 (this coming Friday), with six children, sixteen grandchildren, and decades as an employer in the business world, yes, I have a good bit of experience with young people and their rebellious tendencies.

LifeTeen is an opportunity to redirect some of that rebellion into a deeper faith for many of them.

Of course there is always the alternative. It gives me great spiritual sadness, to watch young people exercise their rebellion through religion, simply for the sake of rebellion.

What better way to rebel against “the establishement”, than to thumb your nose at the post-conciliar Church of your parents (and some grandparents)?

But hey, why stop there? Why not go all-out, and become sympathizers of the SSPX while you’re at it?

Having read thousands of posts here, there is a clear trend. Precious few young people posting here are embracing traditional Catholicism out of a sense of spiritual reverence and humility.

It is indeed a rebellion, I will not contend that point. What I will argue is that it is not simply a rebellion for the sake of rebellion. There is a clear goal for all young traditionats, that goal is simply Christ.

I will also concede that there is a lot of backlash given to the “established order”. This “established order”, however, was an impediment to my faith. I grew up in a Catholic family, attended a liberal NO parish, served as an altar server, was involved (and is) with Parish life, I also attended mass every weekend. I also went through the Catholic education system here where I was taught watered down Catholicism and experienced youth masses. At the end of these tweleve years of catholic education, and 17 years worth of Sunday masses, I was an agnostic, who didn’t know the first thing about the mass, yet it was in the vernacular.

Thankfully I found God in the Divine Liturgy, and after having a flame lit in my heart by a truly orthodox liturgy, I sought out the TLM.

I think my experience is common to many other young traditionalists, who are simply fed up with a movement that in many ways simply seems to be failing us and we are propagating a counter-movement which has given us faith. We are firm in our conviction for the simple reason that Catholicism as we know it, works, and had worked for centuries prior.