What do we know about angels?

[flyonthewall]

The story of Tobit takes place around 721 BC, during the deportation of captives to Nineveh from the northern kingdom of Israel under Sargon II. According to most sources, this Scripture was written in the 2nd century BC. Four fragmentary texts in Aramaic and one in Hebrew were found at Qumran.

Tobit 12:15-20

“I am Raphael,** one of the seven angels** who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.” Stricken with fear, the two men fell to the ground. But Raphael said to them: “No need to fear; you are safe. Thank God now and forever. As for me, when I came to you it was not out of any favor on my part, but because it was God’s will. So continue to thank him every day; praise him with song. Even though you watched me eat and drink, I did not really do so; what you were seeing was a vision. So now get up from the ground and praise God. Behold, I am about to ascend to him who sent me; write down all these things that have happened to you.”

I hope this helps.

Hmmm…brings up more questions than answers. While I can see why the charade would need to be kept up when conceiling their identity in this particular case, there would be no need for such a charade when they were recognized as angels to begin with.
In Genesis 18, when Abraham entertains 3 angels, they ate food with him
In Genesis 19, when Lot entertains angels in Sodom, the angels ate food, and “10But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.”
In Genesis 32, when Jacob wrestled with an angel all night and put his thigh out of joint.

There was no need for the charade in each of these instances as they were recognized as angels to begin with. The physical interaction is not described as a vision either…so I guess, my question is still in need of an answer.

 

[campeador]

Hmmm…brings up more questions than answers. While I can see why the charade would need to be kept up when concealing their identity in this particular case, there would be no need for such a charade when they were recognized as angels to begin with.
In Genesis 18, when Abraham entertains 3 angels, they ate food with him
In Genesis 19, when Lot entertains angels in Sodom, the angels ate food, and “10But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.”
In Genesis 32, when Jacob wrestled with an angel all night and put his thigh out of joint.

There was no need for the charade in each of these instances as they were recognized as angels to begin with. The physical interaction is not described as a vision either…so I guess, my question is still in need of an answer.

I believe you’re mistaken. In all three cases, the angels were mistaken (or disguised) to be men.

Gen 18:2 “Looking up, he saw three** men **standing nearby.”
Gen 19:2 “Please, gentlemen, come aside into your servant’s house for the night, and bathe your feet; you can get up early to continue your journey.”
Gen 32:24 “Then some man wrestled with him until the break of dawn.”

 

[StrawberryJam]

I understand, sorry. Well, The angels are represented throughout the Bible as a body of spiritual beings intermediate between God and men: “You have made him (man) a little less than the angels” (Psalm 8:6). They, equally with man, are created beings; “praise ye Him, all His angels: praise ye Him, all His hosts . . . for He spoke and they were made. He commanded and they were created” (Psalm 148:2-5; Colossians 1:16-17). That the angels were created was laid down in the Fourth Lateran Council (1215). The decree “Firmiter” against the Albigenses declared both the fact that they were created and that men were created after them. This decree was repeated by the Vatican Council, “Dei Filius”. We mention it here because the words: “He that liveth for ever created all things together” (Ecclesiasticus 18:1) have been held to prove a simultaneous creation of all things; but it is generally conceded that “together” (simul) may here mean “equally”, in the sense that all things were “alike” created. They are spirits; the writer of the Epistle to the Hebrews says: “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to minister to them who shall receive the inheritance of salvation?” (Hebrews 1:14).

Probably the pre-eminent writer on angels was Thomas Aquinas. He spent a considerable amount of space in the Summa Theologiae, among other places, discussing the nature, activities and moral state of angels. Often, he would use the nature of the angels to illuminate the nature of human cognition by refering to angels as the extreme of what is possible for an intellectual nature to be. He also discusses them for their own sakes, but all the time keeping his remarks bound by the limits of the definitive teaching of Sacred Scripture, and by the rigors of consistent thinking.

Thomas gives an argument that the perfection of the universe requires the existence of intellectual creatures. Since God intends the good for His creation, he intends that it be like Himself. And since an effect is most like its cause when it shares with it the feature whereby it was caused, God’s creation must contain something with intellect and will since that is how God creates, i.e. by first knowing it and loving it into being.

Hence the perfection of the universe requires that there should be intellectual creatures. Now to understand cannot be the action of a body, nor of any corporeal power… Hence the perfection of the universe requires the existence of an incorporeal creature. (ST Ia 50, 1)
However, since humans are intellectual creatures, as he indicates at the end of this very argument, the need for some intellectual creatures is not sufficient to give us knowledge of the existence of purely intellectual creatures which the angels are.

Since Sacred Scripture does speak definitively about the existence of angels, it belongs to Sacred Doctrine, i.e. theology, to treat of angels in a truly scientific manner. The divine science has the intellectual tools (faith in Scripture) to establish both the fact of angels and their nature (ST Ia, 1, 3). Having accepted on faith that angels exist, or taking their existence to be purely hypothetical, one can still draw certain philosophical conclusions about their nature. Thomas’ words in the Summa are an excellent guide for how one can think clearly about the angelic hosts.

For Thomas, given that angels are intellectual creatures, they must be pure spirit, i.e. self-subsistent forms. They are completely incorporeal; they are in no way material, and have no bodies of any kind.(Ia 50, 2) Some, Franciscan theologians of the 13th century (St. Bonaventure among them), believed that angels, like everything other than God, were composed of matter and form. These thinkers, holders of the theory of “universal hylemorphism” as it was called, believed that, whereas sensible things in the world around us had corporeal matter, angels had spiritual matter. For Aquinas, the idea of spiritual matter was a complete confusion. If a thing is spiritual, then, insofar as it is spiritual, it is not material in the sense that it is not composed of matter. (Even though humans are both spiritual and material, their spiritual soul is not composed of spiritual matter and form as the Franciscan believed.)

Full stop there.

To say this one can not understand science.

 

[firstmode]

Angels are definitely not scientific and Christs ressurection, Lazerus’s resurrection, and the girl the Peter brought back from the dead are also not scientific. Do you know what happens to the innards of a person in three days?

 

[flyonthewall]

I believe you’re mistaken. In all three cases, the angels were mistaken (or disguised) to be men.

Gen 18:2 “Looking up, he saw three** men **standing nearby.”

Yet if you look at verse 1 and the entirety of verse two, you get a very different understanding:
"1And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,"
There was recognition of these men and it was no ordinary meeting with ordinary men. Abraham was a very wealthy and powerful man himself, if there was any disguise put on by these angels, it was to look like the Lord. He would not have bowed himself down to the ground otherwise.

Gen 19:2 “Please, gentlemen, come aside into your servant’s house for the night, and bathe your feet; you can get up early to continue your journey.”

If you look at verse one here too, you will get a different picture:
“1And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;”. Here too, Lot recognizes them as angels as he bows himself with his face toward the ground.

Gen 32:24 “Then some man wrestled with him until the break of dawn.”

In this case, was it a vision that popped Jacob’s thigh out of joint? There was some real physical interaction between the two.
Jacob knew he wrestled a divine being as he would not let him go until he blessed him, and afterward, Jacob even thought it was the Lord Himself.

If there is more to the concept than “they were disguised”, I would like to hear it, as this doesn’t ring true to me.

 

[campeador]

flyonthewall,

Footnotes from the New American Standard Bible:

Genesis 18:3 Abraham addresses the leader of the group, whom he does not yet recognize as Yahweh; in the next two verses he speaks to all three men. The other two are later (Genesis 19:1) identified as messengers.

Genesis 19:2 Gentlemen: Lot does not yet know that the distinguished-looking men are God’s messengers; see Genesis 18:3.

Genesis 32:25 Some man: a messenger of the Lord in human form, as is clear from Genesis 32:29,-31

Of course this is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak. I could post links to literally dozens of commentary (Catholic and Protestant) that support the traditional and long standing view of these Genesis verses.

 

[Nicea325]

I appreciate the link to an article, but I was hoping to start a discussion where we bring up specific points about angels and what different Christian faiths believe (and why) about angels.

I realize there are books and web sites out there dedicated to this, but a discussion format is much more interesting in my opinion.

Well what does your particular Christian faith teach about angels?

 

[flyonthewall]

flyonthewall,

Footnotes from the New American Standard Bible:

Genesis 18:3 Abraham addresses the leader of the group, whom he does not yet recognize as Yahweh; in the next two verses he speaks to all three men. The other two are later (Genesis 19:1) identified as messengers.

Genesis 19:2 Gentlemen: Lot does not yet know that the distinguished-looking men are God’s messengers; see Genesis 18:3.

Which seems to contradict the scriptures that state that both Abraham and Lot saw them and bowed down before them, which is a greeting not done for just anyone.

Genesis 32:25 Some man: a messenger of the Lord in human form, as is clear from Genesis 32:29,-31

“In human form”…does that mean he had a physical body? If so, then the angel was not a spirit. If not, then how could the angel physically wrestle withJacob?

Of course this is just the tip of the iceberg so to speak. I could post links to literally dozens of commentary (Catholic and Protestant) that support the traditional and long standing view of these Genesis verses.

I appreciate your responses, and I’m not trying to be difficult, but I’m trying to connect the dots in a way that makes sense to me.

 

[Holly3278]

We know that they are intelligent and free creatures:

**311 **Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

That we join with them in their adoration and worship of the most holy Trinity at Mass:

**335 **In her liturgy, the Church joins with the angels to adore the thrice-holy God. She invokes their assistance (in the funeral liturgy’s In Paradisum deducant te angeli. . .“May the angels lead you into Paradise. . .”]). Moreover, in the “Cherubic Hymn” of the Byzantine Liturgy, she celebrates the memory of certain angels more particularly (St. Michael, St. Gabriel, St. Raphael, and the guardian angels).

That they have been present since God created everything:

**332 **Angels have been present since creation and throughout the history of salvation, announcing this salvation from afar or near and serving the accomplishment of the divine plan: they closed the earthly paradise; protected Lot; saved Hagar and her child; stayed Abraham’s hand; communicated the law by their ministry; led the People of God; announced births and callings; and assisted the prophets, just to cite a few examples. Finally, the angel Gabriel announced the birth of the Precursor and that of Jesus himself.

That they surround Christ and serve Him in His accomplishment of His saving mission towards men:

**351 **The angels surround Christ their Lord. They serve him especially in the accomplishment of his saving mission to men.

That they are purely spiritual creatures and that they are personal and immortal creatures.

**330 **As purely *spiritual *creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.

That they are venerable:

**352 **The Church venerates the angels who help her on her earthly pilgrimage and protect every human being.

That some of them sinned by rejecting God.

**392 **Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably *rejected *God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.

And of course we know many other things about them as well but it’d take too long to quote all of the Catechism passages about angels!

 

[StrawberryJam]

What does the Kabalah say about demonic possesion? Who can do it?

 

[campeador]

flyonthewall,

Who do you think Paul is referring to here?

Hebrews 13:2 “Do not neglect hospitality, for through it some have unknowingly entertained angels.”

 

[flyonthewall]

flyonthewall,

Who do you think Paul is referring to here?

Hebrews 13:2 “Do not neglect hospitality, for through it some have unknowingly entertained angels.”

Certainly not Abraham or Lot as they were aware who they were entertaining.
Perhaps he was referring to Matthew 25:35.

 

[firstmode]

Well what does your particular Christian faith teach about angels?

Whatever the Bible specifically states in a literal sense about angels is what is taught about angels.

 

[campeador]

Certainly not Abraham or Lot as they were aware who they were entertaining.
Perhaps he was referring to Matthew 25:35.

Ver. 2. And hospitality do not forget,…some being not aware of it, have entertained Angels. They imagined they received men, when they were Angels. The Latin interpreter followed exactly the Greek, though the expression be unusual in both languages. It is meant of Abraham, (Genesis 18:2.) and of Lot, Genesis 19:1.

 

[flyonthewall]

Ver. 2. And hospitality do not forget,…some being not aware of it, have entertained Angels. They imagined they received men, when they were Angels. The Latin interpreter followed exactly the Greek, though the expression be unusual in both languages. It is meant of Abraham, (Genesis 18:2.) and of Lot, Genesis 19:1.

I can agree and disagree with this. Abraham and Lot, in the scriptures, demonstrated they knew the men were angels so I disagree that they entertained angels unaware. However, not everyone will know angels on sight, and your reference even acknowledges “…some being not aware of it…”. Some will know, some will not.

But I really want to get back to the source of the concept that angels are only beings of spriit and intellect.
While I agree that angels can be spirits, they are not limited to only spirits, as I have shown that they interact physically with people, and they eat food…two signs the Savior used to demonstrate He was not a spirit.

 

[campeador]

An angel is a spiritual creature created by God without a body for the service of Christendom and the church.

—Martin Luther​

 

[Bianconeri]

That the Archangle is Jesus.(the highest angle)
As mentioned in 1 Thess 4:16,17. Where they talk about the Lord coming down from heaven with the call of an Archangle.

As mentioned also in Dan 12:1 where they talk about the king of his people, Michael.
Who will rise for the people of his people. Well obviously that refers to Jesus, as Jesus is the king of the people, who will rise up and stand before his people.

Which tells that Michael is Jesus.

Hebr 1:5,6 is also clear. Talking about ‘‘Who of the angels he called his Son’’
and in 6 the bible clearly says about the first born which obviously is Jesus.
So Jesus is the one of the angels he called Son

 

[firstmode]

That the Archangle is Jesus.(the highest angle)
As mentioned in 1 Thess 4:16,17. Where they talk about the Lord coming down from heaven with the call of an Archangle.

As mentioned also in Dan 12:1 where they talk about the king of his people, Michael.
Who will rise for the people of his people. Well obviously that refers to Jesus, as Jesus is the king of the people, who will rise up and stand before his people.

Which tells that Michael is Jesus.

Hebr 1:5,6 is also clear. Talking about ‘‘Who of the angels he called his Son’’
and in 6 the bible clearly says about the first born which obviously is Jesus.
So Jesus is the one of the angels he called Son

I do not have time to go into it now, but I just wanted to state that I disagree.

 

[firstmode]

For Refutation against what Jehova’s Witnesses say about Jesus being an Angel:

Hebrews 1 (New Living Translation)

Hebrews 1

Jesus Christ Is God’s Son

1 Long ago God spoke many times and in many ways to our ancestors through the prophets. 2 And now in these final days, he has spoken to us through his Son. God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance, and through the Son he created the universe. 3 The Son radiates God’s own glory and expresses the very character of God, and** he sustains everything by the mighty power of his command**. When he had cleansed us from our sins, he sat down in the place of honor at the right hand of the majestic God in heaven. 4 This shows that the Son is far greater than the angels, just as the name God gave him is greater than their names.

The Son Is Greater Than the Angels

5 For God never said to any angel what he said to Jesus:

“You are my Son.
Today I have become your Father.[a]”

God also said,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son.”**

6 And when he brought his firstborn Son into the world, God said,[c]

“Let all of God’s angels worship him.”[d]

7 **Regarding the angels, he says,
**
“He sends his angels like the winds,
his servants like flames of fire.”[e]

8 But to the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
You rule with a scepter of justice.
9 You love justice and hate evil.
Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you,
pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.”[f]

10 He also says to the Son,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundation of the earth
and** made the heavens with your** hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain forever.
They will wear out like old clothing.
12 You will fold them up like a cloak
and discard them like old clothing.
But you are always the same;
you will live forever.”[g]

13 And God never said to any of the angels,

“Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
until I humble your enemies,
making them a footstool under your feet.”[h]

14** Therefore, angels are only servants—spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation.****

 

[firstmode]

Hebrews 2 (New Living Translation)

Hebrews 2

A Warning against Drifting Away

1 So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may drift away from it. 2 For the message God delivered through angels has always stood firm, and every violation of the law and every act of disobedience was punished. 3 So what makes us think we can escape if we ignore this great salvation that was first announced by the Lord Jesus himself and then delivered to us by those who heard him speak? 4 And God confirmed the message by giving signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit whenever he chose.

Jesus, the Man

** 5 And furthermore, it is not angels who will control the future world we are talking about. **6 For in one place the Scriptures say,

“What are mere mortals that you should think about them,
or a son of man[a] that you should care for him?
7 Yet you made them only a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.**
8 You gave them authority over all things.”[c]

Now when it says “all things,” it means nothing is left out. But we have not yet seen all things put under their authority. 9 What we do see is Jesus, who was given a position “a little lower than the angels”; and because he suffered death for us, he is now “crowned with glory and honor.” Yes, by God’s grace, Jesus tasted death for everyone. 10 God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.

11 So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.[d] 12 For he said to God,

“I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters.
I will praise you among your assembled people.”[e]

13 He also said,

“I will put my trust in him,”
that is, “I and the children God has given me.”[f]

14 Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had[g] the power of death. 15 Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.

** 16 We also know that the Son did not come to help angels; he came to help the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters,[h] so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God.** Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. 18 Since he himself has gone through suffering and testing, he is able to help us when we are being tested.**