What do Ya'll non-Catholics think of this:

[HashemEchad]

Oh please…this is so ridiculous it isn’t funny. Kaballah isn’t even a religion. Even the Jews, the real Jews don’t accept it. They reject it.

Really? That sure is news to me, because EVERY ultra-Orthodox and Orthodox Jew I know believes firmly in the teachings of the Kabbalah. In fact the traditional Jewish prayerbook is infused with many quotes and references to the Kabbalah.

Or are you confusing authentic Kabbalah with the “pop Kabbalah” of the Hollyweirdos like Madonna? NOT the same thing.

For genuine Kabbalistic teachings, go to koshertorah.com

 

[Cathdefender]

“About Whom Does Isaiah 53 Really Speak?”

messiahtruth.com/isaiah53b.html

Educate yourself a bit!

Educate YOURSELF. In Isaiah 53: with it’s minute description of the suffering servant who was despised and rejected, afflicted with pain and by “whose stripes we are healed”. He then dies, is buried, yet is revived and suffers all this “for the affliction of my people”. (Isaiah the prophets people). All this can be best applied to one person only Yeshua of Nazareth.
The Talmud (Sanhedrin 98) teaches that this chapter refers to MessiahThe Targum of Jonathan begins the passage with the words **Ha yatslakh avdee Mashikha, **“Behold my servant the Messiah shall prosper”…

Common sense says it MUST refer to Jesus.

 

[HashemEchad]

Educate YOURSELF. In Isaiah 53: with it’s minute description of the suffering servant who was despised and rejected, afflicted with pain and by “whose stripes we are healed”. He then dies, is buried, yet is revived and suffers all this “for the affliction of my people”. (Isaiah the prophets people). All this can be best applied to one person only Yeshua of Nazareth.
The Talmud (Sanhedrin 98) teaches that this chapter refers to MessiahThe Targum of Jonathan begins the passage with the words **Ha yatslakh avdee Mashikha, **“Behold my servant the Messiah shall prosper”…

Common sense says it MUST refer to Jesus.

Isaiah 53 only ‘sounds like Jesus’ to Christians…because they have a need to see him in it to buttress their own religious beliefs.

If you’d never heard of Jesus, you wouldn’t see him in it.

BTW is that supposed to be Hebrew you quoted?

Look…I didn’t come here to convert people to my faith, OR to be converted to theirs. I came to understand other religions. Many Catholics have PMed me to ask questions about Judaism, and I have complied.

I understand why some Christians seem to have such a desperate need to convert Jews. They know that their religion stands or falls on Judaism, since Christianity arose as an offshoot of Judaism.

And I know how bad it has always looked to pagans when they can say to Christians, “Look! His own people rejected him, so what does that say about him?” And I realize that is why Paul had to develop the theology which speaks of “veils” and “blinders”.

So you feel if you can convert the Jews, you will validate YOUR OWN faith. And since you have been unable to convert the Jewish people, you tell yourselves that “it will happen one day, at the End”. Sure it will. And George Bush will in elected again in November.

I recognize, as do most informed Jews, WHY you focus so much on conversion of Jews, and not, say, Hindus, or Cambodians, or Ethiopians. Its why, sometimes, I won’t even say in a discussion (unless it is relevant) that I am Jewish, I will just say, “I’m not a Christian”. Because for some reason, missionaries don’t zero in as much when someone says, “I’m not a Christian” as when they say, “I’m a Jew”.

Saying “Jew” to some Christians is like waving a red flag in front of a bull…or like saying, “I’m Catholic” in front of a bunch of Jack Chick Protestant fundies.

 

[Cathdefender]

Isaiah 53 only ‘sounds like Jesus’ to Christians…because they have a need to see him in it to buttress their own religious beliefs.

If you’d never heard of Jesus, you wouldn’t see him in it.

BTW is that supposed to be Hebrew you quoted?

Look…I didn’t come here to convert people to my faith, OR to be converted to theirs. I came to understand other religions. Many Catholics have PMed me to ask questions about Judaism, and I have complied.

I understand why some Christians seem to have such a desperate need to convert Jews. They know that their religion stands or falls on Judaism, since Christianity arose as an offshoot of Judaism.

And I know how bad it has always looked to pagans when they can say to Christians, “Look! His own people rejected him, so what does that say about him?” And I realize that is why Paul had to develop the theology which speaks of “veils” and “blinders”.

So you feel if you can convert the Jews, you will validate YOUR OWN faith. And since you have been unable to convert the Jewish people, you tell yourselves that “it will happen one day, at the End”. Sure it will. And George Bush will in elected again in November.

I recognize, as do most informed Jews, WHY you focus so much on conversion of Jews, and not, say, Hindus, or Cambodians, or Ethiopians. Its why, sometimes, I won’t even say in a discussion (unless it is relevant) that I am Jewish, I will just say, “I’m not a Christian”. Because for some reason, missionaries don’t zero in as much when someone says, “I’m not a Christian” as when they say, “I’m a Jew”.

Saying “Jew” to some Christians is like waving a red flag in front of a bull…or like saying, “I’m Catholic” in front of a bunch of Jack Chick Protestant fundies.

I am not here to convert anyone. Not one of my posts suggest it. I am here to defend my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
And what do you mean “it only sounds like Jesus”. IT IS JESUS. If it sounds like Jesus, then it is Jesus…
Christians don’t see a “need” in Isaiah to believe, WE BELIEVE IN JESUS BECAUSE OF THE PROPHETS WHO FORETOLD HIM. We also believe in Jesus because He told us he is the Messiah.
It is so clearly stated in Isaiah 53 who the Messiah is that it is almost a sin not to realize this. Perhaps it is a sin. I cannot judge, only God will judge you and why you do not believe in his son.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Quantity is not the issue. We will not give it to non-believers because they do not have the proper reverence.

The Apostle Thoms DID NOT have the proper reverence when he stuck his finger in Jesus’ hole.

Let God be the judge and stop making excuses. You are just giving us the impression that you are afraid of being exposed as a hoax. Or maybe just keep it. I think its only real purpose to serve as a wall decor.

 

[Margarite]

I am a modern Catholic. I truly believe the host becomes the body of Jesus. I receive Communion in the hand. As far as we know, Christ did not go around at the last supper putting Communion on their tongue. Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist and the priest must also pass out the Eucharist with their hand. What makes the hand dirtier than the mouth? We are supposed to consume the Host in front of the Eucharistic minister. We are all unworthy to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord, and receiving Him in the hand will not make us any more worthy or reverent.

Another reason that we may receive it in the hand is because (at least at our parish this is the case) it often falls to the floor more often when receiving it on the tongue.

This is a little off topic, but the Church is seriously thinking about banning communion on the hand because of the many abuses. And if pattens were used, as they are supposed to be, Our Lord would never fall to the floor.
There are many reasons that Communion in the hand is less reverent.
First you are touching GOD, the priest does it out of necessity. Second, it allows people to take the host out of church, or to leave it in the pew. Third, little crumbs get on your hand and when you brush your hands on your pants Our Lord falls to the floor, even the smallest crumb is still Our Lord. Third, people have just finished the kiss of peace. While your hands may be clean, you cannot know that the person you just shook hands with has clean hands.
Anyways, you are going to put it on your tongue anyways, so why not let the priest do it?
Sorry that this is off topic, but it is important.

 

[Cathdefender]

“The one thing that bothers me the most, is when people take communion in the hand”—Mother Teresa

 

[AgnosTheist]

A couple of times I saw a host waffer in the mud. When we were kids we picked one up and played with it. “Body of Christ, amen”.

Perhaps the reason we did not get struck by lightning is because Jesus was fond of kids.

 

[Cathdefender]

I once went to a funeral and there was a Mass with communion. A woman took it in the hand THEN WALKED AWAY WITH IT! My priest was horrified! She claimed she wanted to take it home as a souvenir…later I found out she was a Protestant. Don’t Protestants understand the meaning of the Eucharist at the Catholic Mass? No disrespect to them but I was shocked to learn she was Protestant because thinking she should know better was what really got to me.

 

[Cathdefender]

A couple of times I saw a host waffer in the mud. When we were kids we picked one up and played with it. “Body of Christ, amen”.

Perhaps the reason we did not get struck by lightning is because Jesus was fond of kids.

How did you know as a kid it was the Eucharist in the mud? Sorry, I don’t buy this one at all.

 

[Margarite]

To this non-Catholic, it looks far more as if He has abandoned your church. Ever since V2, it has been falling apart, what with clown masses, various other ridiculousness…not to mention that in my city, the buses and subways are loaded with really expensive advertisements, begging Catholics to come back to the Catholic church.

First of all, why shouldn’t we want people to go to mass? If we think that that is the most important thing you can do, why wouldn’t we try to get everyone to go, it would be a sin if we didn’t!
Second, yes there are clown masses, I have been unfortunate enough to stumble upon some, but I walked out before long, and found another church. VatII was an amazing document, it was only meant to subtly change the mass, the NO was supposed to still have the Latin, and it was supposed to be much like the mass that is said at EWTN. But, the timing was bad. Just when VatII came out, the hippies started taking over. They are the ones who caused the holding hands at the Our Father, and all the other nonsense. And then when those hippies became priests and later bishops, the trouble just went up the line. But the Church remained strong. While you may hear about clown masses and see them on YouTube, they are not at all common. Most masses are bad music, a weak sermon and the priest rushing through the rest of the mass. They are OK, not beautiful, not horrifying. But now, Pope Benedict along with the FSSP, and all the trads, he is patching the holes. The Church is like a big ship, immediately after VatII, some of the people went around punching holes in the bottom of the Ship, but slowly the Church is patching and will eventually fix those holes.
Now, you cannot say that the same has been true of Judaism before. If I remember my old testament correctly, there were many times that the prophets had to reprimand the Jewish people because they had lost faith. I mean, the Jews even started worshiping a golden calf at one point! So you cannot say that the Judaism never had its problems. It did, but the good Jews didn’t just get up and leave, they staid and they tried to correct the bad Jews, and they helped the prophets. Well, the good Catholics do not just leave, we love our faith and we are fighting to fix it. It is hard, we are few, and the lukewarm are many, but we are will succeed because we have God on our side. Just as the Jews in the Old Testament overcame so many bad people and so many troubles, so will the Catholic Church in the New Testament.
I don’t mean to be preachy, I don’t like it when people say “Believe what I believe or you are evil.” I have too many non-Catholic relatives (My parents and siblings are the only Catholics in my family). I know that there are good people in most religions, and I also know that there are evil people in all religions, as I said before, a religion should be judged by the people who follow all the rules instead of the people who break the rules.

 

[Margarite]

Your church took a work of beauty and threw it out in the trash. That ALONE proves to me its not the true religion. The true religion would never do anything like that. And I don’t think the modern Catholics truly believe the host becomes the body of Jesus, because if they truly did, they would never have permitted communion in the hand!
You destroyed works of beauty…marble altar rails, pretty statues, things that the rest of us always associated with “Catholicism”. Your nuns got rid of their full habits and started looking like social workers…they went from “Sister Annunziata” to “Sister Joanie”.

No, we didn’t throw it in the trash, some of us trads, and especially the FSSP, have kept it alive until the trads could recover and regroup after the chaos of the 60’s caused by the hippies, and the introduction of the NO right at that time.
I agree with you. The TLM is BEAUTY FULL! I agree that communion in the hand is horrible. There is a study that shows that only 30% of Catholics believe that the host is Our Lord Jesus. That is sad, it is horribly sad, but we trads think that we can switch that number around. I think we can at least get it so that 80% believe in my lifetime, and hopefully after me, that number could get better. I agree with you about the nuns. I am thinking of becoming a nun, and I will only join a full habit order. Whenever I meet a “Sister Mary Miss-her-habit” I refuse to call her Sr. She is a disgrace to the Catholic Church, the same as priests who do not wear all black, and who don’t wear their collars, they don’t deserve the title Father, just as the miss-her habit sister doesn’t deserve her title. I have traveled allot in my short 19 years, and I have seen many different masses and churches. When I was young, I went to a FSSP mass where they had the communion rail etc… In Denver, one of the many places I have lived, there are two really beautiful churches, Holy Ghost, and the Immaculate Conception Cathedral. They are both marble, wood, beautiful stained glass, statues, incense, candles, communion rails, good music etc… I lived there for three years before moving to Vegas. There is not a single pretty church here. There is a nice hybrid mass at one church, we try to make it every Sunday, the church is OK, but the mass is great, the very old priest says it, and leads the congregation in one song per mass. It is a wonderful break from the other masses. I hate going to the circus tent churches and listening to sermons that talk about nothing and being screamed at with protestant hymns.
But, I am one of the workers who is trying to fix the holes in the hull. I know that with God’s help we will succeed. I am going to Wyoming Catholic College in August, I am excited because I am hoping to meet people my age who are like minded. I have only two friends who I will stay in contact with, both are good Catholics. I hope that I will be able to add at least a couple to that list when I go to college.
Please, when you look at the Church, remember Judaism’s own troubled past, and instead of despising us, pray for us, even if you pray that we become Jews, and we pray that you become Catholic, whoever is right, their prayers will be answered, and whoever is wrong, their prayers will go towards the right. Have a Wonder Full day!

PS:
To all you Catholics, today is the Solemnity of the Sacred Heart! So you don’t have to fast from meat or anything, today is a great feast day! Thank Our Lord for his great mercy and ask St. Margaret Mary Alacoque and St. Claude de la Colombier for their intercession! (I was born on the feast of the Sacred Heart and my confirmation name is after St. Margaret Mary thus Margarite)!

 

[adstrinity]

Good evening to all and peace to you from our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Holy One of Israel, the first born of the Dead. He is alive forever more. He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. He is the perfect sacrifice and our mighty God, Prince of Peace. All glory and honor is His forever and ever amen.

Our Lord received this type of doubt about the Eucharist when he was giving this sacrament to us in John 6. Most left Him, abandoned Him, doubted Him. He asked His disciples if they would leave Him and Peter (The Rock and our first Pope) said: No Lord, to who would we go, You have the words of eternal life.

As for me, I echo the words of Peter. I am weak, I stumble, I fall. But I know that my Lord still is absolutely, completely and divinely perfectly present in very Eucharist of every Mass all around the world every day. That is a miracle. Everyday.

To HashemEchad, if members of my faith have offended you in their attempts to convince you, please forgive them. Many like me would be like Peter who cut off the guard’s ear in the garden arrest. We are brutish at times and we all should make better efforts at charity and less at sarcasm. Our Lord though would be willing to replace and heal you.

I am proud of my Catholic brothers in defending the Sacrament. We have a special gift from God and we get pretty defensive at times. It is our Lord and God and Tradition and Faith. It is hard not to be defensive. Let us all remember that the best apologist may not even utter a word.

Love Hope and Peace to you all

Amen!

 

[Margarite]

****HashemEchad,I didn’t know how to answer your question about Christ’s blood not being Kosher so I asked an Apologist. Here is his reply:

****Re: Is the blood of Christ kosher? A primary reason why the Jews were forbidden to consume blood is because the life of the animal was in its blood. (The separation of blood from the body can cause death.) With Christ though, we are commanded to have his life within us:

Quote:
 	 		 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me" (**[John 6:53-57](http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=John&chapno=6&startverse=53&endverse=57)**).

The kosher laws taught the Jewish people to respect the lives that were sacrificed for their daily nourishment and could be said to turn the act of eating into a holy action. This was preparation for the sacrifice Christ made for the salvation of the world and the Eucharist that he gave for our daily food and drink.

As a side note, it would be worth noting to your friend the distinction between the appearances of bread and wine and their substance. When the bread and wine of the Eucharist are consecrated, all of the appearances of bread and wine remain (i.e., all that is apparent to the five senses is that of bread and wine) but their substance is changed into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. So while we truly receive Christ really present under the appearances of bread and wine, it is not a “cannibalistic” reception of his body and blood.

Recommended reading:

Christ in the Eucharist
The Institution of the Mass

 

[AgnosTheist]

I once went to a funeral and there was a Mass with communion. A woman took it in the hand THEN WALKED AWAY WITH IT! My priest was horrified! She claimed she wanted to take it home as a souvenir…later I found out she was a Protestant. Don’t Protestants understand the meaning of the Eucharist at the Catholic Mass? No disrespect to them but I was shocked to learn she was Protestant because thinking she should know better was what really got to me.

Thats an excellent idea!!! I’m gonna try that. Hmmm lets see which catholic churches in my area are handing out host wafers…

If its really God then maybe he could tell me something!

 

[HashemEchad]

****HashemEchad,I didn’t know how to answer your question about Christ’s blood not being Kosher so I asked an Apologist. Here is his reply:

****Re: Is the blood of Christ kosher? A primary reason why the Jews were forbidden to consume blood is because the life of the animal was in its blood. (The separation of blood from the body can cause death.) With Christ though, we are commanded to have his life within us:

Quote:
 	 		 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me" (**[John 6:53-57](http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=John&chapno=6&startverse=53&endverse=57)**).

The kosher laws taught the Jewish people to respect the lives that were sacrificed for their daily nourishment and could be said to turn the act of eating into a holy action. This was preparation for the sacrifice Christ made for the salvation of the world and the Eucharist that he gave for our daily food and drink.

As a side note, it would be worth noting to your friend the distinction between the appearances of bread and wine and their substance. When the bread and wine of the Eucharist are consecrated, all of the appearances of bread and wine remain (i.e., all that is apparent to the five senses is that of bread and wine) but their substance is changed into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ. So while we truly receive Christ really present under the appearances of bread and wine, it is not a “cannibalistic” reception of his body and blood.

Recommended reading:

Christ in the Eucharist
The Institution of the Mass

The above is a Catholic (non-Jewish) interpretation, so that is to be expected. In Judaism, we naturally don’t see it that way.

I have to say, Margarite, your posts have been very charitable and respectful, and I greatly admire anyone who respects tradition…whether its Catholic tradition, Jewish, tradition or whatever.

Keep up the good work! (I read your other post too)

 

[Margarite]

Thats an excellent idea!!! I’m gonna try that. Hmmm lets see which catholic churches in my area are handing out host wafers…

If its really God then maybe he could tell me something!

Please, please don’t! I beg you please don’t! Please have enough respect for our beliefs not to do that! Oh, please, please don’t! I hope that you are only joking and teasing us! Please tell me that you are so that I won’t worry all weekend! It is very, very, very important to Catholics, at least good Catholics, so please don’t!

 

[Margarite]

The above is a Catholic (non-Jewish) interpretation, so that is to be expected. In Judaism, we naturally don’t see it that way.

I have to say, Margarite, your posts have been very charitable and respectful, and I greatly admire anyone who respects tradition…whether its Catholic tradition, Jewish, tradition or whatever.

Keep up the good work! (I read your other post too)

:blushing:Thank you very much, that is very kind of you.:blushing:

Have a Wonder Full weekend!

 

[ufamtobie]

Jesus studied Kabbalistic teachings, this became very apparent to me when I started studying Kabbalah myself, and saw so many extreme similarities between things Jesus said, and what is said in Kabbalah. Furtehrmore, the Galilee was a hotbed of Kabbalah study in Jesus’ time.

One thing the Kabbalah teaches is how to pronounce the true Name of God. Kabbalists teach that anyone who properly pronounces the true Name can perform miracles, the most notable being the ability to walk on water.

Judaism teaches that the Kabbalah should not be studied by anyone under the age of 40, for if they do so, they will greatly misunderstand it, and if they should misuse the teachings, they will die a shameful death before the age of 40.

Jesus in the NT prayed to God, saying that he had “revealed Your Name to those you have given me”. This leads me to believe he learned the true Name and its pronunciation, and used it to walk on water and do his other “miracles”.

And if you note, he did die a shameful death, and he was 33.

In traditional Judaism, WE KNOW just who and what Jesus was. Its Gentiles who are hoodwinked.

Hashem,

Open your eyes and your heart, enough with the foolish thoughts up above, Jesus is the Son of God who came 2 thousand years ago, and he will COME AGAIN! AMEN

I hope we are already when he comes.

May the Lord Jesus Christ, Bless you Hashem,

Ufamtobie

 

[Koopa]

This is a little off topic, but the Church is seriously thinking about banning communion on the hand because of the many abuses. And if pattens were used, as they are supposed to be, Our Lord would never fall to the floor.
There are many reasons that Communion in the hand is less reverent.
First you are touching GOD, the priest does it out of necessity. Second, it allows people to take the host out of church, or to leave it in the pew. Third, little crumbs get on your hand and when you brush your hands on your pants Our Lord falls to the floor, even the smallest crumb is still Our Lord. Third, people have just finished the kiss of peace. While your hands may be clean, you cannot know that the person you just shook hands with has clean hands.
Anyways, you are going to put it on your tongue anyways, so why not let the priest do it?
Sorry that this is off topic, but it is important.

Hello, Margarite. Thank you for clarifying the abuses of Communion in the hand. Of course if the Church decided to ban Communion in the hand, I would always receive it on the tongue. But as you say, a religion (or in this case, a method of receiving our Lord) should only be judged by those who follow all the rules, like consuming the Host in front of the priest (This, of course, nullifies my “falls to the floor” argument, though (because of the patten point) ). I do not think that God would let the Church fall into teaching that something is acceptable when it is actually horrible. I am always very careful in consuming the Host that no crumbs stay on my hands. This has only occurred once and I carefully consumed the crumb that was left. Actually, the people who make the unconsecrated hosts make them so that crumbs are kept to the utmost minimum. And by saying that your mouth is no cleaner than your hands, I didn’t mean it literally, I just meant that if the Host is going to touch some part of your body (as opposed to just going straight into your stomach), I would think it would be acceptable to consume Him as you would normally consume food, by taking it in the hand first.

I don’t mean to be snippy at all; I’m sorry if I sound that way. I understand that I may be wrong. Frankly, Mother Teresa is much smarter than I, so I won’t say I will always receive Communion in the hand.

God bless!