What do you consider a liberal Catholic to be?

[Annabelle_Marie]

I’m confused here on the traditional forumn. It seems like there are differences in what people consider a liberal Catholic to be. So…what do you personally consider to be a liberal Catholic?

I know that there are some people who consider those people who prefer the NO (while still respecting those who prefer the TLM), take CITH, prefer English, think most of the music is fine and seems worshipful to be liberal…even if they most heartly think that frequent reconciliation is necessary, believe in the Real Presence, Mass should be followed to according to the GIRM, Sunday Mass obligation is serious, and that abortion/ABC is wrong.

Others may think more along the lines of those people who don’t see anything wrong with confession only once a year or even less then that, don’t believe in the Real Presence, and think of these things more as loose guidelines.

 

[Domnall]

For me, a Liberal Catholic is a person who chooses to forsake tradition for the sake of progressivism.

For example, if a person just prefers the Mass of Paul VI is not. However, someone who sees the EF as “too ridgid, and formal, and not participatory enough” may be considered liberal.

Or, someone who calls for changes in things such as priestly celibacy and female priests to “conform with the times.”

You see what I’m getting at?

 

[buffalo]

a heterodox Catholic.

 

[archangel04]

Well I hope you actually want to know and are not just here to start something, seems like a recurring thing on this part of the forum to have people just come and try to bait us.

I hate using the word liberal/conservative. Br. JR gave a good explanation on both on this topic, but I can’t remember where he posted it, maybe he will see this and chime in.

But for sake of your question, a liberal Catholic is one who lives the philosophy of Relativism. Also those who feel the Church needs to change her Dogmatic, Moral, & Traditional teachings in order to compromise with the world. For too long now lukewarm catholics have had the louder voice in the Church, just look at our “catholic” politicians.
Also those who despise the “traditional” crowd, and I am not talking about the SSPX here but your ordinary Catholic who wishes to have the TLM at his/her home parish instead of having to drive an hour away. When they even bring up the idea of having the TLM they are quickly chewed out and spit out. Finally, those who feel they can do whatever they want with the Mass, that includes the clergy, “Eucharist ministers”, and the choir.

 

[archangel04]

a heterodox Catholic.

Exactly!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Well I hope you actually want to know and are not just here to start something, seems like a recurring thing on this part of the forum to have people just come and try to bait us.
.

I sincerly want to know. I wouldn’t consider myself a liberal Catholic but when I hear some people talk about CITH, then it bothers me to be labeled as a liberal Catholic. So…I thought I would clarify and find out…that’s all…not to start anything.

Oh…and no desire for women priest or anything like that. I follow the teachings of the Church…I just wondered if that was considered a liberal Catholic or not. Basically is it only traditional and then everyone else was liberal or do we consider several layers? Just questioning. Sincerley…not looking to start anything.

 

[buffalo]

I sincerly want to know. I wouldn’t consider myself a liberal Catholic but when I hear some people talk about CITH, then it bothers me to be labeled as a liberal Catholic. So…I thought I would clarify and find out…that’s all…not to start anything.

Oh…and no desire for women priest or anything like that. I follow the teachings of the Church…I just wondered if that was considered a liberal Catholic or not. Basically is it only traditional and then everyone else was liberal or do we consider several layers? Just questioning. Sincerley…not looking to start anything.

Orthodox and heterodox are the only useful words in the Church.

 

[archangel04]

I sincerly want to know. I wouldn’t consider myself a liberal Catholic but when I hear some people talk about CITH, then it bothers me to be labeled as a liberal Catholic. So…I thought I would clarify and find out…that’s all…not to start anything.

Oh…and no desire for women priest or anything like that. I follow the teachings of the Church…I just wondered if that was considered a liberal Catholic or not. Basically is it only traditional and then everyone else was liberal or do we consider several layers? Just questioning. Sincerley…not looking to start anything.

Everyone should consider themselves Traditional Catholics if they want to be good standing Catholics because we have to follow a Tradition with capital T. As for CITT or COTT that is just a matter of preference at this point, one can argue one is better than the other and still be in good standing. One can also argue the what form of the mass has greater qualities, but must not deny that the mass is the mass as long as the words are proerly said and the matter is present.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Everyone should consider themselves Traditional Catholics if they want to be good standing Catholics because we have to follow a Tradition with capital T. As for CITT or COTT that is just a matter of preference at this point, one can argue one is better than the other and still be in good standing. One can also argue the what form of the mass has greater qualities, but must not deny that the mass is the mass as long as the words are proerly said and the matter is present.

Ok…I like this. So, to put it another way…you want take communion CITH or COTT and go to either TLM or the NO and still be a Catholic in good standing…right?

I just got the feeling sometimes that I get lumped in as a liberal Catholic which has a negative conotation. Especially when I follow Rome.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[po18guy]

It certainly can be confusing! We have both ends of the spectrum as far as liturgy, and both ends of the spectrum as far as obedience to the Church. Since the Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass are two paths to the same sacrifice, this should not be considered the difference between liberal and conservative. Some try to make it so, but they are simply wrong, IMO. Traditional vs. modern in forms of liturgy is a difference in personal preference, and does not determine or affect on the piety or obedience of the practitioners. Both forms have solidly obedient members, and both forms have the “slackers”. In fact, the labels liberal and conservative are more political than religious. In Catholicism, we can have only obedient or disobedient Catholics. Many will dispute this, but either you believe and submit to all that the Church teaches, or you do not. If you disagree with Church teaching, you will have to take it up with Raymond Cardinal Burke.

My view of liberal Catholics is those who tend to pick and choose their doctrines. As well, they tend to gravitate toward the social justice end of the spectrum, oftentimes following liberal-progressive and/or partisan democratic political doctrines as to how such justice is obtained. They tend to vote political party more than Church teaching, justifying their votes by engaging in mental gymnastics to arrive at their usually pro-choice choices.

In becoming Catholic, and then diving more deeply into my faith, I have changed my thinking on numerous moral and political issues. In my experience, liberal Catholics seem to have more difficulty in doing that, or in simply embracing diversity in prudential judgment as to how we implement Church doctrine.

 

[archangel04]

Ok…I like this. So, to put it another way…you want take communion CITH or COTT and go to either TLM or the NO and still be a Catholic in good standing…right?

I just got the feeling sometimes that I get lumped in as a liberal Catholic which has a negative conotation. Especially when I follow Rome.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

No problem, I felt the same way when I came on here for the first couple of times, I felt as I was always being attacked, but instead of getting mad I got down to research for example, why COTT? Why the TLM? Why Gregorian instead of what I grew up with guitars (my opinon). When I finally conlcuded my research I came to it that yes in “my view” COTT & Gregorian was the best way that I could worship and give reverence best for God.

The one good thing is that to be a good Catholic you have to actually think! You must do some research and even sacrifice. Who says the Catholic Church is for the weak and ignorant? Ha ha ha

I also like that you said you follow Rome, and that is pretty much what you can do in these times. Jesus left Peter the keys to the kingdom, we canno’t go wrong in putting our trust in the Lord’s promise.

 

[ConstantineTG]

and not participatory enough

I think its unfair to call someone who desires participation in liturgy as a liberal since many traditional Eastern Liturgies that have existed for centuries have plenty of congregational participation. So to say that participation is a modern innovation is completely a misnomer.

 

[Bl_Pope_Pius_IX]

To ME a “liberal Catholic” is someone who deliberately thinks differently than the Church, yet still claims to be a Catholic. It may sound crude at first, but allow me to explain myself.

+ One who supports Abortion

+ One who supports Women Priests

+ One who supports the banning of TLM

+ One who supports Liturgical Abuse

There are others of course. However I also realize something. A Church divided cannot stand. We are UNIVERSAL, however how can we be UNIVERSAL if we think, worship, pray, say mass, differently?

 

[laszlo]

Related to the topic, I have two principles:

1./ God created a colorful world, not a black or white, good or evil, orthodox or heterodox one

2./ Only God is the Truth, the Good and we cannot comprehend Him as He is

As for the 1st principle there are less than a few million extremely liberal Catholics, and also less than a few million extremely traditionalists, and in between 1200 million Catholics in every color of the spectrum.

As for the 2nd, we need compasses, to find our way, and we got only two compasses: the living Magisterium and our conscience. Nothing else helps. The examples of the Pharisees in Jesus time and the Protestants shows that there is no other compass.

The Pharisees believed that the tradition of their fathers will take them to God, and they lost God living physically among them; the Protestants believed that the Bible as is will direct them toward the truth, and instead of the unity in the truth they divided among themselves and in the past century made even the Bible liquid.

Good men are who will go to heaven, but we do not know who they are. Selected passages from the Tradition could be as dangerous as selected passages from the Bible.

We shall be humble, we shall not judge others, and we shall listen to the Magisterium to form our conscience

1 Pet 5:8-9 Brothers: Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour. Whom resist ye, strong in faith:
And Thou Lord have mercy on us

 

[beth40n2]

To ME a “liberal Catholic” is someone who deliberately thinks differently than the Church, yet still claims to be a Catholic. It may sound crude at first, but allow me to explain myself.

+ One who supports Abortion

+ One who supports Women Priests

+ One who supports the banning of TLM

+ One who supports Liturgical Abuse

There are others of course. However I also realize something. A Church divided cannot stand. We are UNIVERSAL, however how can we be UNIVERSAL if we think, worship, pray, say mass, differently?

Annabelle Marie, I have seen your posts in the Converting to Catholic group enough to know that you are serious with your question and that you are not just causing a debate. So that is settled!

Bl Pope Pius IX I agree with your definition. When I hear liberal, I do not think about which form of mass you like or what group you like such as Dominican or Franciscan. I think of the real issues. When I became a Catholic almost 6 years ago I took a vow to believe everything the church believes. Those persons who read the Catechism and start disagreeing are those who would be considered liberal.

 

[ConstantineTG]

To ME a “liberal Catholic” is someone who deliberately thinks differently than the Church, yet still claims to be a Catholic. It may sound crude at first, but allow me to explain myself.

+ One who supports Abortion

+ One who supports Women Priests

+ One who supports the banning of TLM

+ One who supports Liturgical Abuse

Don’t forget ABCs

There are others of course. However I also realize something. A Church divided cannot stand. We are UNIVERSAL, however how can we be UNIVERSAL if we think, worship, pray, say mass, differently?

But the universal Church do say “Mass” differently. The universal Church has 6 rites, meaning 6 different liturgical traditions. And Pope John Paul II recognizes this as an integral part of our Church and encourages all to be familiar with them

Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each.

Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church’s catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.

Apostolic Letter, Orientale Lumen

 

[ProVobis]

However I also realize something. A Church divided cannot stand. We are UNIVERSAL, however how can we be UNIVERSAL if we think, worship, pray, say mass, differently?

Indeed. This seemed to be the thrust behind Pope John XXIII’s Veterum Sapientia, praising Latin, Greek, and some of the other unchanging Eastern languages to help make the Church universal.

papalencyclicals.net/John23/j23veterum.htm

 

[PatriceA]

To ME a “liberal Catholic” is someone who deliberately thinks differently than the Church, yet still claims to be a Catholic. It may sound crude at first, but allow me to explain myself.

+ One who supports Abortion

+ One who supports Women Priests

+ One who supports the banning of TLM

+ One who supports Liturgical Abuse

There are others of course. However I also realize something. A Church divided cannot stand. We are UNIVERSAL, however how can we be UNIVERSAL if we think, worship, pray, say mass, differently?

I think this is what I think of immediately when I think “liberal” Catholic. Also, they think the Church should change to meet their own beliefs and ideals instead of trying to understand why the Church teaches what it does.

 

[HCC]

A good example…

The BVMs, then and now:

View attachment 9104 *** Quote from their website, 2010:*** "BVMs cherish a variety of spiritualities impacted by the Gospels, option with the poor, emphasis on women’s concerns, Celtic spirituality, labyrinths, ecofeminism, feminism, Hesed, Eucharist in multiple expressions, politics, justice activities, multicultural influences, creation, Universe."

 

[edwest2]

First, try to avoid getting opinions, especially about this. Talk to your priest.

The problem, today, is simple: a lack of obedience to Church teaching. The outside world is filled with opinions and they are usually entirely wrong. Here, so-called debates are started about subjects like women priests. The Church Has Definitively Ruled That There Can Be No Women Priests but people continue to debate it sometimes just to Confuse Catholics.

There is one true answer to every question. So, opinions do not matter. Ever.

So-called Liberal Catholics believe that the Church is run by a bunch of people who are either wrong, according to them, who do not understand something correctly, according to them, or who are just a group of power hungry men who are out for themselves, according to them. They want you to view the Church hierarchy with suspicion. And they either suggest or come right out and say that they know better than the Church hierarchy. They want you to believe that the Church hierarchy has not made every effort possible to understand any issue like they should have.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions if you do not understand a particular teaching of the Church. But some post here claiming that they know better or the Church is wrong about some particular issue.

Hope this helps,
Ed