What do you consider proof of God, if anything?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

Some argue that the term “God” is not well defined. In my humble opinion it is by nature outside human ability to understand it so it will remain undefined.
God is personal and eternal expression; God is the root or foundation of all natures that have come in to being and have the quality of change or becoming. God is the reason why something is rather then nothing. God is the highest of the highest, the most real. God is existence.

Is that a good enough definition for you?
 
God is the personal and eternal root or foundation of all natures that have come in to being and have the quality of change or becoming. God is the reason why something is rather then nothing. God is the highest of the highest, the most real. God is existence.

Is that a good enough definition for you?
That was gloriously vague 😛
 
I don’t follow… perhaps you can expand on that a bit? For instance, why would it be impossible to prove anything if there was no God?
Thank you for the question.

I believe this to be the case because only the Catholic Christian worldview can account for and justify abstractions such as laws of logic and thought, presuppositions regarding the uniformity of nature, etc. … in short, the very things that must be accounted for and justified in order to believe that rational activities, such as “proving something” are even possible.

But I have to add that I did not arrive at this conclusion after an exhaustive survey of “all possible ways to prove things” as this, of course, would not be impossible. I believe this because, as the God of the Catholic Church has revealed Himself, He is the Creator and Sustainer of all things –His being gives meaning to such things as universals (abstractions) and particular things about which we reason. Laws of logic, for instance, simply reflect the thinking and character of God. God does not think in terms whereby the (logical) law of non-contradiction, as an example, holds at some moments and doesn’t hold at other moments. His character and thinking do not change in nature and, therefore, the laws of logic do not change. By way of a thumbnail sketch, this is how laws of logic are accounted for and justified within the Catholic worldview. Thus far, no contender to this position of God’s has yet presented itself to me. And, as I said, I don’t believe that one exists.

A devout Materialist, for example, might wish to assert that what we think are “laws of logic” are simply the result of chemical reactions in our brains and that they do not exist as real immaterial abstractions at all. However, the materialist would have to concede that this very assertion about logic – that our logical constructs are simply the result of chemical reactions in our brains – is itself the result of a chemical reaction in our brain. Logical thought becomes a thing that is held to not be necessarily true, but simply an event required by our chemical hard-wiring. “Logic” is destroyed as simply an illusion, fostered by neuro-chemicals.

Bill G
 
God is personal and eternal expression; God is the root or foundation of all natures that have come in to being and have the quality of change or becoming. God is the reason why something is rather then nothing. God is the highest of the highest, the most real. God is existence.

Is that a good enough definition for you?
So if you ask “Is there a root or foundation of all natures that have come in to being and have the quality of change or becoming”
or
“Is there a reason why something is rather then nothing.”

Then the answer is obviously “Yes.” even if we still cannot understand what that is.
Of course not everyone shares your exact definition (I like it)

Also, your sig: “If God doesn’t exist…then reality is completely insane.” contradicts it. If there is no God there is no reality.

My point is that the rules of logic are not up to the task of proving or disproving God.
 
My point is that the rules of logic are not up to the task of proving or disproving God.
Hi KDB,

Do you assert this as being an aspect of God’s nature or as a result of men inadequately defining the term “god”? One would think the later problem could be overcome by simply defining God as something provable. So is it the former?

Bill G
 
You have not. Let me refresh your memory about first-order logic and proofs in a first-order logic, and what a logical contradiction is. Please specify exactly which axioms lead to a contradiction if “there is an infinite causal regress” is substituted for “there is no infinite causal regress,” and demonstrate what sequence of deductions leads to this contradiction.
Citing Wikipedia? :rolleyes:

Here’s your proof: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5253519&postcount=135
It is not my responsibility to explain some metaphysical axiom that you accept and I do not; it is yours. You have avoided nearly every challenge to your attempts at a Socratic-style restatement of Craig. If I wanted to know Craig’s arguments, I can find them in much greater detail in Craig’s work. Craig appeals to intuitionnot logic – to justify his belief in the impossibility of an infinite chain of causes.

But here you are, claiming that an infinite chain of causes is logically impossible. It is incumbent upon you to demonstrate that claim using a proof expressed in first order logic, rather than dropping phrases you’ve read here and there and stalling for time by asking me to define the axioms of your own argument for you.
The discussion is about metaphysics. The terms are metaphysical terms. You used a term from David Hume. The answer has nothing to do with William Lane Craig.

You introduced a metaphysical term that you obviously don’t understand.

You can clear it up by explaining “potency-in-act.”
 
But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false.
This is a category mistake. While it is true that in an infinite chain of causes, no cause can be designated as “first” or “ultimate” (and hence “intermediate” is a rather meaningless term if defined as between “first” and “ultimate”), this is not the same as negating the existence of any causes.

An infinite causal chain can only affect what properties we can ascribe to causes, not whether or not these causes exist. The correct way to state the implication of an infinite causal chain is:
But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, no efficient cause can be called “first”, neither can any effect be called “ultimate”, nor can any causes be called intermediate.
That is a valid description of the implications of an infinite causal chain. Unfortunately, it no longer supports the conclusion “all of which is plainly false.”
 
=liquidpele;5226618]I’m curious what people consider as proof that there is a God, or if you even think proof is possible. Has anyone had what they would consider a miracle happen, seen an angel, seen a person healed by prayer, etc? I don’t believe because I have never seen any proof, so I am curious what others have seen or what they would even consider proof. My purpose is not to try and explain anything away, I’m actually just genuinely curious about other’s experiences and logic on this subject.
Dear friend,

No purely human person throughtout recoreded history has “seen God” so you’re question is valid.

Yet with intregity and truth, one can prove the existence of God in the following manner.

In Summary:

Becasue “I am”, because “you are” God HAS TO BE!

Absolute TRUTHS

**Something can only be what something is

Something cannot be what something is not

Something can only give what something has to give

Something cannot give what something does not possess

What is: is

What is not: is not**

Every member of humanity, past, present and future have [had] the following Faculties. Not only is this true, but no two humans are exactly alike in the extent and application of these faculties.

We all have a mind, and intellect, abilty to reason, ability to cauclate, a freewill and what actually animates, that is actually gives life and existence to these THINGS, a soul.

How do we prove this?

The very fact that you freely selected to post on CAF, choose you’re question, framed and asked it, verifies that you have all of the THINGS I detailed. The fact that I responded to you, using the same THINGS gives evidence that they exist.

So we are able to verify that these THINGS do exist in every human beign.

Question: can you describe you’re mind to me? [Not brain, you’re mind] How much does it weigh, how long, wide, deep is it, what shape and color? You can’t because while we can prove that “mind-a THING” exist, we canoot see, measure, touch, or smell it.


The only prudent conclusion is that “these Things” which we can prove exist, must be, have to be “invisible” or to use a better word; “these THINGS are Spiritual THINGS.”

Humans are “physical beings” and "physical beings can only give from what they are; what they have to give, physical parts, other "physical THINGS. So friend where does, where have the Spiritual THINGS come from?

It has to be some another "Spiritual Thing!"


We can know by the fact that no one in recorded history has seen “God” face to face. Moses saw clouds, some have simply heard His voice. noone has ever seen Him, because God is Spirit, and can’t be seen. Jesus was both God and human, not just God when He was visible to us.

So, while you may choose a different name for this “Spiritual Thing” we know that it is God.

**A second proof **is “The First cause”. Before there was “anyTHING” to “go BANG!” God had to exist as the “First Cause.” As the “Creator” which means to “make something out of nothing!” Only God couls be the “cause and the effect.”

BILLIONS of stars, Millions of galaxies that scientist know of, the sun and moon rising and setting on a regualr schedule, tides, weather, plants, animals, can’t be some mere accident. That is a simply foolish and dishonest view, not provable and not credible. Call the Supreme Being what you will, we call Him God! Amen!

So if you are a person of personal intregity and honesty, there is you’re proof.

These thoughs and words were very carefully selected, please read them carefully.

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
Hi KDB,

Do you assert this as being an aspect of God’s nature or as a result of men inadequately defining the term “god”? One would think the later problem could be overcome by simply defining God as something provable. So is it the former?

Bill G
Hello Bill
Well it’s both; being infinite makes God kinda hard to talk about. We can perform addition but if I say “What is infinity plus one?” our answer, infinity, is kinda meaningless if only because it is the same as infinity plus two.
As far as “defining God as something provable” I think all the true monothiest faiths have already defined Him as unprovable: omnipotent, omnipresent, literally outside of time and space. I’m saying the thinking that allows us to prove or disprove things just will not work. All our learning and our minds themselves are geared toward understanding this universe and that is not what is needed.
By the way, I am over my own head here but that is sort of my point: we all are.

EDIT: Then again PJM right above me makes an excellent point.
 
This is a category mistake. While it is true that in an infinite chain of causes, no cause can be designated as “first” or “ultimate” (and hence “intermediate” is a rather meaningless term if defined as between “first” and “ultimate”), this is not the same as negating the existence of any causes.
I see we’ve moved from motion to causality. :rolleyes: You should try to stick to one idea instead of thrashing about.

Paraphrasing Kreeft: A cause is the sine qua non for effect. No cause, no effect. No first cause no subsequent effects. It is irrelevant how long a causal chain is, it could be infinitely long, you still need a first cause.
An infinite causal chain can only affect what properties we can ascribe to causes, not whether or not these causes exist. The correct way to state the implication of an infinite causal chain is:
DavidHume;5257062:
But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, no efficient cause can be called “first”, neither can any effect be called “ultimate”, nor can any causes be called intermediate.
That is a valid description of the implications of an infinite causal chain. Unfortunately, it no longer supports the conclusion “all of which is plainly false.”
Oy! Now you are attacking the scientific method.:eek: It’s a good thing your argument has no merit.
 
I see we’ve moved from motion to causality. :rolleyes: You should try to stick to one idea instead of thrashing about.
I merely re-quoted the “proof” of a “logical” contradiction that you linked in your post previous to mine. Said “proof” is fallacious, since it conflates being able to assign a particular predicate (in this case, a terminal place in an ordinal sequence of causation) with the existence of the object in question.
Oy! Now you are attacking the scientific method.:eek: It’s a good thing your argument has no merit.
Now how am I doing that? I don’t mention experimentation, observation, or indeed, anything in the universe – only the abstract notions of infinity, first, intermediate (defined as something between first and last), last, and cause. And my only critique is on the relationship of “infinite” to “first” and “last”, and by implication “intermediate”, and how “firstness” and “lastness” have nothing to do with existential quantification.

You appear to believe that debate consists of unsubstantiated one-liners and repetitive questions. I grow tired of your non sequiturs and will not respond to them any more. I can get the same fallacious reasoning in a more coherent and courteous form from your source material.

I certainly feel sorry for you if you consider this to be “proof” of God, and kudos to the other people in the thread – ones with far more valid reasons to believe in God – for putting up with our shenanigans.
 
I merely You appear to believe that debate consists of unsubstantiated one-liners and repetitive questions. I grow tired of your non sequiturs and will not respond to them any more. I can get the same fallacious reasoning in a more coherent and courteous form from your source material.
You can’t answer a fundamental question about a metaphysical term you introduced in a thread about metaphysics. :rolleyes:
 
That was gloriously vague 😛
Your comment here, strangely enough, gets to the very root of the matter.
In my earlier post I stated that we cannot discuss God’s existance or any proof thereof until we agree on what “God” is. The same thing is true for “Proofs”. We have to agree on what sorts of things would consititute “proofs”.
I am no scientist nor am I a theologen, nor a philosopher. But even I understand that without a clearly defined “playing field” there can be no meaningful discussion.
I think you will agree that the debates here clearly demonstrate this principle. The two sides are clearly and adamently convinced of their arguments and just as convinced of the error of the other’s argument.
Yet in all of this back and forth I have yet to see any agreement on just what God is, let alone proving God exists.

In my view, any description of God will necessarily be vague and fall short of the reality because the human mind, the human nature, and human language are totally unable to contain that which is the “first cause” and creator of all things. How does the human mind encompass something that is totally outside of our comprehension?
We, as humans can peer through a microscope at single celled creatures. We can even manipulate their environment to their benefit or detriment. However can these single celled creatures comprehend humans? Can they comprehend that we even exist?
Now if we make a great assumption and say they can comprehend that there is something hugely more complex and greater than they, would these single celled creatures be able to define and explain “Humans” using the context of their environment and what they know and understand living in that environment?

Peace
James
 
Hello Bill
As far as “defining God as something provable” I think all the true monothiest faiths have already defined Him as unprovable: omnipotent, omnipresent, literally outside of time and space. I’m saying the thinking that allows us to prove or disprove things just will not work.
EDIT: Then again PJM right above me makes an excellent point.
Hi KDB,

I think you confuse the concept of “incomprehensible” with “unprovable”. And the former does not necessarily entail the latter. And if you wish to assert that certain incomprehensible aspects of God’s nature, His omnipotence, His omniscience, etc, necessarily entail His unprovability, you would also have to concede that this would only be true … if He existed. In other words, it makes no sense to say that the unprovability of God’s existence is a necessary aspect of God’s existence. It’s like saying that one cannot prove that birds exist because they fly. They only fly IF they exist.

Bill G
 
Your comment here, strangely enough, gets to the very root of the matter.
In my earlier post I stated that we cannot discuss God’s existance or any proof thereof until we agree on what “God” is. The same thing is true for “Proofs”. We have to agree on what sorts of things would consititute “proofs”.
I am no scientist nor am I a theologen, nor a philosopher. But even I understand that without a clearly defined “playing field” there can be no meaningful discussion.
I think you will agree that the debates here clearly demonstrate this principle. The two sides are clearly and adamently convinced of their arguments and just as convinced of the error of the other’s argument.
Yet in all of this back and forth I have yet to see any agreement on just what God is, let alone proving God exists.

In my view, any description of God will necessarily be vague and fall short of the reality because the human mind, the human nature, and human language are totally unable to contain that which is the “first cause” and creator of all things. How does the human mind encompass something that is totally outside of our comprehension?
We, as humans can peer through a microscope at single celled creatures. We can even manipulate their environment to their benefit or detriment. However can these single celled creatures comprehend humans? Can they comprehend that we even exist?
Now if we make a great assumption and say they can comprehend that there is something hugely more complex and greater than they, would these single celled creatures be able to define and explain “Humans” using the context of their environment and what they know and understand living in that environment?

Peace
James
Indeed, but I never meant for this to be a forum to define God. I wanted to know what people individually saw as proof, or at least that convinced them that God existed.
 
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Aquinas:
But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false
.

This is a category mistake. While it is true that in an infinite chain of causes, no cause can be designated as “first” or “ultimate” (and hence “intermediate” is a rather meaningless term if defined as between “first” and “ultimate”), this is not the same as negating the existence of any causes.
You’re misunderstanding Thomas’ argument, actually. He is only speaking about simultaneous efficient causes in this argument. (I’ll provide the documentation, if you wish.)

Example: my hand which is pushing the box which is pushing another box which is pushing the last box… all happening simultaneously. In each step along the say, the efficient cause is acting and its immediate effect is being produced simultaneously. And in this case, an infinite regression is logically impossible, because each step in the chain is directly dependent upon its preceding cause. And if I want to make any chain of simultaneous efficient causes infinite, then I deny a first efficient cause; but if I deny a first efficient cause in this case, then there’s no source of motion for any step of the chain, and thus nothing in the chain will ever begin to move – which is plainly false. On the contrary, the chain of simultaneous efficient causes can take place, precisely because there is a first efficient cause in the chain.

Now, if you want to talk about efficient causes that are occurring before and after each other (example: hitting a pool ball that later hits another pool ball that later hits the last pool ball that gets sunk), then you would be exactly right – the argument against an infinite regression of efficient causes does not hold the same in that case, because each step in the chain is not* immediately* dependent upon its previous cause. But that doesn’t affect Aquinas’ argument at all, because this isn’t what he was talking about… and he was, in fact, very aware that his argument only applied to simultaneous efficient causes.
 
You have not. Let me refresh your memory about first-order logic and proofs in a first-order logic, and what a logical contradiction is. Please specify exactly which axioms lead to a contradiction if “there is an infinite causal regress” is substituted for “there is no infinite causal regress,” and demonstrate what sequence of deductions leads to this contradiction.

It is not my responsibility to explain some metaphysical axiom that you accept and I do not; it is yours. You have avoided nearly every challenge to your attempts at a Socratic-style restatement of Craig. If I wanted to know Craig’s arguments, I can find them in much greater detail in Craig’s work. Craig appeals to intuitionnot logic – to justify his belief in the impossibility of an infinite chain of causes.

But here you are, claiming that an infinite chain of causes is logically impossible. It is incumbent upon you to demonstrate that claim using a proof expressed in first order logic, rather than dropping phrases you’ve read here and there and stalling for time by asking me to define the axioms of your own argument for you.
You must be getting all of this stuff - that you barely understand, and, that they barely understand, but, understand just enough to help you remain unreasonably argumentative - from some pro-atheist, anti-Catholic (or, anti-Christian) website or web-forum. Catholic Answers Forum has been very charitable to many extraordinarily homologous non-theists, like you, for a while now. We know that you do not really have the philosophical background for a sane discussion of scholastic philosophy. Thus, the only hope is by destroying scholastic philosophy’s validity and impact on reason. For example, we understand “potency to act”, but, have no affinity with statement, “potency in act”, except as some further (accidental) relationship of some privation of a quality in an extant being, such as knowledge is “potential-in-act” of say a child already in actuality. Aquinas specifically makes use of the preposition, “to”, because it is the primary way of apprehending mobile being as mobile being. Motion is a from-to proposition, not a from-in one.

Potency and act are two words that are extremely appropriate in describing the states of privation and possession. I am amazed that the languages of the world even have these four words in them, especially when, as you assert, they are essentially not useful, or are, irrelevant, (at least) to you. As merely words, both “potency” and “act”, in their various forms, can be nouns, adverbs, or adjectives. In scholastic philosophy, they are used interchangeably, but, primary use is as adverbs, as a quality (potentially, or actually) possessed by, and, predicated of a subject.

Nonetheless, “motion” as regards scholastic philosophy is used somewhat more analogously than directly. “Motion”, in scholastic philosophy has much more to do with substantial and accidental change - three more useless words, as far as you’re probably concerned, most likely, yet, extant in the languages of the world perhaps since the dawn of speech notwithstanding.

It is also interesting that the languages of the world have the noun, “nothing”, in them and use it in the manner of, “ex nihilo nihil fit” with great regularity, and have done so for some 2,500 years, give or take. Thank goodness for DavidHume to show the world the error of its ways. Except that DavidHume has forgotten that nothing has a definition, or rather, definitions. See: encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/nothing

That aside, what’s even more interesting is that all of scientific endeavor, all of scientific inquiry, has for its object, or objects, material mobile being, or beings. Interesting because, material mobile being is presupposed when considering inertia (objects in motion), energy-to-matter and matter-to-energy transfers, potential-to-kinetic transfer, simple local motion, substantial coming-to-be (wood to ashes), accidental coming-to-be (an apple reddening on the tree), and so on. More useless words, I suppose, nevertheless in use by man from time immemorial.

As far as “infinity” is concerned, either one correctly understands that infinity is not a number, or, one defines it however one wants. If one defines it correctly, as not a number, then one can grasp that infinity is dynamic, that is, it is continuously moving, progressing, adding another real number, or thing, to it, never stopping and unstoppable. To think of infinity in arrears is to incorrectly understand infinity. There can be no stopping point. Therefore, we could not have arrived at this moment, or sequential spot. If infinity is a number, is it an odd number or an even number. And, “yes” is a stupid answer to that question, in the sense that it was asked.

The Set theory of Georg Cantor does not in any sense define infinity. It is merely a “conceptual scheme” to play with the exigency as if it were a real number. As used by Cantor, it is a bastardization and transmutation of the word transfinite. So, since you don’t, or can’t, grasp the meaning of infinity, discussing this stuff with you is a labor of energy not well spent, on our parts.

jd
 
Did you totally miss her point? (Assuming Leela is a “her” of course)
Is it really acceptable for someone to claim that only the good things are due to prayer or God?
Most likely, as it is most likely that from Him goodness arises.

jd
 
MindOverMatter:
You have not explained why and how God is an unmoved mover from nothing. Assuming there isn’t an infinite number of Gods, God represents the beginning of change and thus all that is physical and inert. The very principle of inert cause and effect comes in to being or rather begins only when the nature of change begins. Thus one cannot apeal to some inert cause or chance event, as we are speak of the beginning of all events. That is all that can be said of God. To speak of Him as a “cause”, makes no sense, since there was nothing changing or physical “before” God, and thus no potentiality for His existence.
If I might, let me explain it like this: A CAUSAL SEQUENCE CANNOT REGRESS INFINITELY. It must stop at a cause that is itself uncaused, that has no beginning, is, itself, infinite. Anything that has a beginning cannot be infinite. The universe has a beginning. The universe cannot be, and is not infinite.

The universe consists of matter and energy, exigencies that are bound by space, time, quantity (mass) and number. To be infinite is to be unbounded by ANYTHING. To be without space, time, quantity, or number. ONLY something non-physical can be unbounded by space, time, quantity, or number. Disprove this, and, try not to be unnecessarily argumentative.🙂

If these things exist, they can only exist BECAUSE there is something that presupposes them. Aquinas says, “We call it 'God.”"

jd
 
If I might, let me explain it like this: A CAUSAL SEQUENCE CANNOT REGRESS INFINITELY. It must stop at a cause that is itself uncaused, that has no beginning, is, itself, infinite. Anything that has a beginning cannot be infinite. The universe has a beginning. The universe cannot be, and is not infinite.

The universe consists of matter and energy, exigencies that are bound by space, time, quantity (mass) and number. To be infinite is to be unbounded by ANYTHING. To be without space, time, quantity, or number. ONLY something non-physical can be unbounded by space, time, quantity, or number. Disprove this, and, try not to be unnecessarily argumentative.🙂

If these things exist, they can only exist BECAUSE there is something that presupposes them. Aquinas says, “We call it 'God.”"

jd
I’ve given lots of examples of infinities in the past. There are an infinite number of paths for moving from any point on earth to another. There are an infinite number of “nows” in an hour. There are an infinite number of locations in any finite space. Your difficulties in conceiving on infinity are no proof that time cannot proceed infinitely into the past from now. It is an unwarranted assumption in any proof that there must be a first cause.
 
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