What do you consider proof of God, if anything?

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toastmachines
When I was a young man I first encountered it in the writings of Bertrand Russell, a British philosopher with agnostic/atheist leanings. I think the “hell” taunt is a regular staple now in atheist propaganda. Hell is perceived to be a place where only masochists would want to go, and where only a cruel sadist would want to put them. Well, I think God is more than generous and grants everyone’s final choice, even the masochists.

But of course with their topsy-turvy logic atheists can perceive themselves to have siezed the high moral ground, supposing hell must be a place where they might be sent against their will, when in fact it is exactly they place they have chosen for themselves.
I’m not sure I follow… what you are saying seems to go against most Christian doctrine, so I’m assuming Catholicism has a different view on the subject… Who in the world would choose hell? If all it takes for me to get into heaven is to ask to go there, and the same with hell, is hell not just the heaven for those who choose it? Are you saying that God doesn’t make the choice but we make it? If we make it in our actions here on Earth, can we change our minds once we are in hell and work towards getting out and into heaven?
 
*If we make it in our actions here on Earth, can we change our minds once we are in hell and work towards getting out and into heaven? *

That’s close to what we call purgatory, which is another hot kettle! Once in hell, why would you want to get out? Wasn’t that your final choice? Didn’t you know going in it was your final choice? Didn’t you know, even as an atheist, that if there is a God, that would still be your final wish … anywhere forever … anywhere else but not with God?

Wish granted.
 
Who in the world would choose hell?

A sinner? Anything but virtue!

A criminal? Anything but law!

A hater? Anything but love!

A cynic? Anything but Paradise!

An atheist? Anything but God!
 
Who in the world would choose hell?

A sinner? Anything but virtue!

A criminal? Anything but law!

A hater? Anything but love!

A cynic? Anything but Paradise!

An atheist? Anything but God!
Is that your final answer? Or would you like to add to that so that it actually answers even one of my questions with anything more than a list of generalizations?
 
liquidpele

If all it takes for me to get into heaven is to ask to go there, and the same with hell, is hell not just the heaven for those who choose it?

Asking is not how you get to heaven. Doing is how you get there. There’s a whole list of do’s and dont’s that I can’t get into here. Starting with the Ten Commandments and obeying them is the usual route. That’s more than just asking.

Doing the opposite is the road to hell.

*is hell not just the heaven for those who choose it? *

Possibly. I always thought that eternal “lake of fire” thing was just right for a masochist. 😉
 
I’m not sure I follow… what you are saying seems to go against most Christian doctrine, so I’m assuming Catholicism has a different view on the subject… Who in the world would choose hell? If all it takes for me to get into heaven is to ask to go there, and the same with hell, is hell not just the heaven for those who choose it? Are you saying that God doesn’t make the choice but we make it? If we make it in our actions here on Earth, can we change our minds once we are in hell and work towards getting out and into heaven?
NO! you make that choice here and if you do not except heaven here why should you go after? We have a choice I feel only the real wicked go to hell and those who deny Jesus is Lord and the Son of God . he is our King and he redeemded us with his blood so we could have eternaL LIFE.I raly think Jesus knows you better then your self and he will not force you to believe or love him, he wants us of our own free will (Choice). Life is a waste if you have no belief, no thoughts of an afterlife, why love why be good, why have memories if it is all done and over with after you die. He said he would give you the desires of your heart. And If Jesus said it I believe it! Praise God! Once you are in hell you can change your mind but God is the one who will answer that question when you get there. Why go there to find out? Love Of Christ Nancy
 
liquidpele

If all it takes for me to get into heaven is to ask to go there, and the same with hell, is hell not just the heaven for those who choose it?

Asking is not how you get to heaven. Doing is how you get there. There’s a whole list of do’s and dont’s that I can’t get into here. Starting with the Ten Commandments and obeying them is the usual route. That’s more than just asking.

Doing the opposite is the road to hell.

*is hell not just the heaven for those who choose it? *

Possibly. I always thought that eternal “lake of fire” thing was just right for a masochist. 😉
Okay, so it sounds like you lean towards the Judaism view of hell, being just separation from God in essence. However, if you get to heaven through works then who judges your works? Obviously God… so he is ultimately making the decision is he not? Masochist lakes of fire aside, would God still not be putting you somewhere that you don’t want to go? Also, do you think hell is a place you cannot escape from, or a place you could still redeem yourself (or choose to leave perhaps)?
 
In Mark 9, notice that the Lord Jesus repeats three times about Hell, “where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.” Now, I personally feel that it is a great waste of time to quibble and argue with people about whether it is literal, real fire or not. And it seems there is some reason for saying that it need not necessarily be a real fire, or that this is a literal, real worm that is referred to here. But it is interesting to note that one of the Bible words used to describe Hell is Gehenna, and that referred to the garbage dump of the valley of Hen, where there was fire constantly burning, and the worm and maggots never lacked something to eat. They were always alive, always in existence.

Will there literally be a burning fire in Hell? The fact of the matter is that if this is just symbolic language, it’s bad enough for me, and certainly the reality will be worse than the symbol. And fire isn’t very funny. And if the Lord is simply using symbolic language, how much more terrible must the reality be?

You don’t need fire to be in pain.

Now, I don’t think physical suffering is the worse kind of suffering. We know that when Jesus was on the cross He took and an awful lot of abuse. He was spit on and mocked. They pushed sharp thorns down into His head, shredded His back with the cat-o’-nine-tails, drove the nails in and the spear. He was even deserted by His own disciples. The physical suffering was great. They even plucked the beard out of His face. But you never hear the Lord Jesus complaining about any of that. Rather, the peak of His agony and His suffering is when He cries out, “My God, my God why has thou forsaken me?”

The real pinnacle of suffering for Jesus was to be God-forsaken and to be left alone. That hurt more than thorns and thistles and spears and nails and whips and spit and all the rest—to be God-forsaken.

I honestly don’t think that those of us in America can appreciate or understand that as much as some missionaries who have gone out to some of the most primitive parts of the world, where spiritual darkness is so heavy you feel you could cut it with a knife. The presence of the Demonic and the Devil and the powers of darkness are felt keenly. We can’t really understand what it would be like to be in a place where the hard Satanic atmosphere has not been broken, shattered, or in some ways penetrated through the persistent preaching of the Gospel.

When we read in the Old Testament, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4), really the idea of the word is that it shall be separated. It is not non-existence or annihilation, but rather it is separation from God.

■Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body.

■Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God.

When Jesus said,“why has thou forsaken me?” that was the height of the suffering.

In Hades, what do people remember?
Returning to Luke 16, and the story of the rich man and Lazarus, I’d like to mention that there is no indication here that this is a parable. It doesn’t start out like a parable, but says, there was a rich man, and a man by the name of Lazarus, specifically named. Parables don’t usually take that turn. And the one was carried to Abraham’s bosom and the other one was a lost soul who went to a place of punishment and torment. But I want you to notice in this story that when the rich man was in eternity without God, without hope, his memory was very much alive. He said, “Send Lazarus to give me a little relief.” At another point he said, “Send him to tell my five brothers, lest they also come to this place of torment.”

Every once in a while, you’ll hear somebody say concerning some member of their family whom they know is unsaved, “Well, if he’s gone to Hell, or she’s gone to Hell, I want to go there and be with them.” I’ve got news for you—they don’t want you there. The rich man said, “Go tell my five brothers, lest they also come to this horrible place.” He got very missionary-minded and very evangelistic a little late in the game.

What did the Lord say to him? “Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime had thy good things.” I don’t really think we need to talk about fire. I think one of the most horrible, terrible features of eternity without Christ would be to have your faculty of memory—to remember the gospel services you sat through and kept saying “no” to Christ—to remember your hardness and coldness of heart to somebody that was a testimony—to remember your indifference—to remember programs and meetings in which you emotionally were stirred and maybe tears came to your eyes and a lump to your throat, and you said “No!” to Christ. I can’t think of anything that would be more horrible than that. “Son, remember.”

You don’t need fire to be in pain. You don’t need physical suffering. Just to be God-forsaken—separated from God and all that is good and holy and to have your memories along with it. To remember a mother and dad who prayed for you, who tried to lead you right. You took the bit in your mouth and decided to go your own way. You wouldn’t listen. A horrible thing memory can be if we’re outside of Christ. “Son, remember.” And evidently, man in eternity could see, he could remember. He didn’t need to have fire to make him uncomfortable. There were plenty of other factors to make Hades and Hell very unfunny. To be out in eternity without Christ is very unfunny.

You are Loved Nancy
 
liquidpele

*Masochist lakes of fire aside, would God still not be putting you somewhere that you don’t want to go? *

Why wouldn’t you want to go there? Wasn’t that your choice?

*Also, do you think hell is a place you cannot escape from, or a place you could still redeem yourself (or choose to leave perhaps)? *

Again, why would you want to redeem yourself or escape if it was your choice?

Perhaps only the proud go to hell, and they are as obstinate as obstinate can be. :banghead: Lucifer it seems went willingly, under an alias anyway, to become Lord of the Underworld. :yeah_me:
 
I’m not sure I follow… what you are saying seems to go against most Christian doctrine, so I’m assuming Catholicism has a different view on the subject… Who in the world would choose hell? If all it takes for me to get into heaven is to ask to go there, and the same with hell, is hell not just the heaven for those who choose it? Are you saying that God doesn’t make the choice but we make it? If we make it in our actions here on Earth, can we change our minds once we are in hell and work towards getting out and into heaven?
In hell there is a pain of loss and a pain of sense. That is the Catholic teaching based upon Scriptural references (already posted) by Christ Himself. Also, the unending torture of hell is mentioned in books of the Old Testament. Isaias writes in chapter 66: 24: “And they shall go out, and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched.”

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote in a letter to the Ephesians early in the second century warning against corrupters of houses, saying: “Such a man, having defiled himself, shall go into unquenchable fire, and in like manner also shall he that hearkens unto him” (cf. “To the Ephesians” 16:1; The Apostolic Fathers, J.B. Lightfoot, p. 67). In another early work, On the Martyrdom of Saint Polycarp, written about A.D. 157, it is reported that the martyr boldly responded to his executioner: “You threaten that fire which burns for a season and after a little while is quenched: for you are ignorant of the fire of the future judgment and eternal punishment, which is reserved for the ungodly” (The Apostilic Fathers, p. 112). (from an essay by Fr. James B. Buckley, F.S.S.P.)

Nobody CHOOSES to go to Hell directly, purposefully, intentionally. But the moral choices we make daily can effect our final CHOICE, the biggie, so to speak. However, we have all heard of a “deathbed conversion,” but we shouldn’t count on it.
 
In hell there is a pain of loss and a pain of sense. That is the Catholic teaching based upon Scriptural references (already posted) by Christ Himself. Also, the unending torture of hell is mentioned in books of the Old Testament. Isaias writes in chapter 66: 24: “And they shall go out, and see the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched.”

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote in a letter to the Ephesians early in the second century warning against corrupters of houses, saying: “Such a man, having defiled himself, shall go into unquenchable fire, and in like manner also shall he that hearkens unto him” (cf. “To the Ephesians” 16:1; The Apostolic Fathers, J.B. Lightfoot, p. 67). In another early work, On the Martyrdom of Saint Polycarp, written about A.D. 157, it is reported that the martyr boldly responded to his executioner: “You threaten that fire which burns for a season and after a little while is quenched: for you are ignorant of the fire of the future judgment and eternal punishment, which is reserved for the ungodly” (The Apostilic Fathers, p. 112). (from an essay by Fr. James B. Buckley, F.S.S.P.)

Nobody CHOOSES to go to Hell directly, purposefully, intentionally. But the moral choices we make daily can effect our final CHOICE, the biggie, so to speak. However, we have all heard of a “deathbed conversion,” but we shouldn’t count on it.
There does seem to be a problem with the Catholic teaching on hell. For example, suppose there is a horrible criminal who has done terrible and wicked deeds throughout his whole life and has caused misery and sorrow to everyone around him. The pain, injury and bodily harm which he has caused to innocent women and children has been horrific. However, before his execution he repents and fulfills the obligation for obtaining a plenary indulgence. Then at the time of his execution, he will go straight to heaven.
On the other hand, there was a good and decent man, always helpful and always charitable who worked at a second job to support both his family and various charities to which he gave generously. He had his whole family kneel down in front of a shrine each night to say the rosary. He went to weekday Mass oftern, and of course, he never missed his Sunday obligation. Further, he adopted several orphan children, and accepted them as his own. However, one Friday during Lent he decided to go to a baseball game, and at the game he became hungry.so he bought himself a hotdog and took a bite. He knew that it was a mortal sin to do so, and he intended to confess his sin tomorrow. Unfortunately, after the game a car ran over him and he died before he could get to confession. So the good man goes to eternal fire in hell for taking a bite out of a hot dog, even though everything else about his life was full of goodness and kindness toward everyone.
 
Okay, so it sounds like you lean towards the Judaism view of hell, being just separation from God in essence.
Another aspect of hell in Jewish thought is that it is purgatory, not eternal damnation. As far as I know, eternal hell for nonbelievers is peculiar to Islamic and Christian theology.
 
There does seem to be a problem with the Catholic teaching on hell. For example, suppose there is a horrible criminal who has done terrible and wicked deeds throughout his whole life and has caused misery and sorrow to everyone around him. The pain, injury and bodily harm which he has caused to innocent women and children has been horrific. However, before his execution he repents and fulfills the obligation for obtaining a plenary indulgence. Then at the time of his execution, he will go straight to heaven.
On the other hand, there was a good and decent man, always helpful and always charitable who worked at a second job to support both his family and various charities to which he gave generously. He had his whole family kneel down in front of a shrine each night to say the rosary. He went to weekday Mass oftern, and of course, he never missed his Sunday obligation. Further, he adopted several orphan children, and accepted them as his own. However, one Friday during Lent he decided to go to a baseball game, and at the game he became hungry.so he bought himself a hotdog and took a bite. He knew that it was a mortal sin to do so, and he intended to confess his sin tomorrow. Unfortunately, after the game a car ran over him and he died before he could get to confession. So the good man goes to eternal fire in hell for taking a bite out of a hot dog, even though everything else about his life was full of goodness and kindness toward everyone.
You certainly present a contrast! And I think you already have an answer, but I’ll venture to guess what the theological implications might be, even though I’m certainly not of that stature. IMHO, I believe that a plenary indulgence is conditional, contingent upon many factors, and that God weighs these factors and determines what is just and merciful at the same time, for in His Justice lies Mercy, and in His Mercy resides His Justice. Then, also, in order to obtain a plenary indulgence, certain conditions must be met. Now in your example, let’s assume that the first man who did evil all his life but had this sudden conversion experience (rare probably, but possible, as in getting knocked off one’s high horse!) made all the requirements to receive a plenary indulgence according to the Church’s dictum. Nonetheless, it is still conditional because as God is the final Judge, the absolute Arbiter of what is just, only He can decide on that man’s fate. However, as I read in St. Faustina’s Diary, a person who makes a perfect act of love and trust at death can make up for temporal punishment due to sin and go directly to Heaven. (I hope I underlined the passage. Memory is fleeting you know).

The second man’s fate is easier to determine, although, as I mentioned above, God is the final Judge. This man led a life that was purposive to the good. He saw his ends in life as pointing to God and eternity in Heaven and strove to achieve those ends. It is highly unlikely, I would think, that one small error (mortal sin? to eat a hot dog on Friday in Lent? any other choices on the menu?) or maybe one big error at the end of his life (although we all sin throughout our lives, hopefully not mortally) would not determine His fate since this man seemed to be a good Christian who put his faith in God. God, who is all-Merciful, as well as all-Just sees the “heart” (soul) of this man. I’m sure the man would have acknowledged his guilt and asked for forgiveness from how you described the condition of his soul. I think God would have made available a time for him to repent if only but for a nanosecond.

What is your opinion?
 
4Horsemen

*What is your opinion? *

Lots of hairsplitting over the hot dog. Let God be the judge. We ought to limit ourselves to the words of Scripture that are most important, such as especially the end of Matthew 25 and Matthew 10:32-33.

In those passages we are told by Christ very specifically who will be saved and who will burn.
 
I think that if you were a good person and lived a life without crime and cared for your fellow man, did all according to the law and fed the poor and clothed the naked,etc and never went to church but did believe in god and Jesus at your last breath you tlked to god and aked for forgiveness for anything you might have done in life against him, I feel then perhaps he will take you home to be with him. I dont think if you killed or went around hurting peple and then at your last breath decided to care after all the bad things you did, no, why should you put God last? he said if you are not ashamed of me to others then I will not be ashamed of you before my Father. The JOY of the Lord is: Jesus first, Others Second, You last. JOY! Love of Christ Nancy:)
 
4Horsemen

*What is your opinion? *

Lots of hairsplitting over the hot dog. Let God be the judge. We ought to limit ourselves to the words of Scripture that are most important, such as especially the end of Matthew 25 and Matthew 10:32-33.

In those passages we are told by Christ very specifically who will be saved and who will burn.
The virgin parable in Mathew 25 is hilarious! But why the mention of burning? I thought you guys just finished explaining Hell was just separation from God?
 
HI! my proof of God is Love, Love is all around you It is here and it is in you, and by the way Father God has a sence of humor to! He made me, and he laughed alot:D He ma de tears and all thing’s that fit into our situations. How splended our God is How wonderful, how natural, loving and kind. He gave us voice and thought, and sent his Son for insperation, and most of all forgiveness, and that is such a good feeling. it is so wonderful to know we are not just placed here to suffer and die, No! we are redeemed and we are fighting for the prize, none of our suffering is in vain, I offer all my prayers, works, joy’s. and suffering’s to the Lord, for I cannot ever repay him for all he has done for such a worm as I. In Jesus name I say and give you witness this day! Love is everything! God is Love. Come to me all you who are heavy laden and I will give you rest, Take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is easy and my burdens Light! God is Here! Praise The Lord AMEN! Love of Christ Nancy
 
The second man’s fate is easier to determine, although, as I mentioned above, God is the final Judge. This man led a life that was purposive to the good. He saw his ends in life as pointing to God and eternity in Heaven and strove to achieve those ends. It is highly unlikely, I would think, that one small error (mortal sin? to eat a hot dog on Friday in Lent? any other choices on the menu?) or maybe one big error at the end of his life (although we all sin throughout our lives, hopefully not mortally) would not determine His fate since this man seemed to be a good Christian who put his faith in God. God, who is all-Merciful, as well as all-Just sees the “heart” (soul) of this man. I’m sure the man would have acknowledged his guilt and asked for forgiveness from how you described the condition of his soul. I think God would have made available a time for him to repent if only but for a nanosecond.

What is your opinion?
The hot dog was presented as an act of deliberate disobedience meeting the conditions for mortal sin.

There was no mention if he had perfect contrition. 🤷

God is the judge.
 
What is your opinion?
I thought that the teaching was that one unrepented mortal sin, such as taking a bite from a hot dog on a Friday in Lent, sends a person to eternal fire in hell, regardless of whatever good he did before?
And for the plenary indulgence, the Church has that power according to the authority to bind and loose, is what I thought.
 
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