What do you do at a JW meeting?

[adf417]

My understanding is No, they do not. But they believe Jesus to be a great prophet. and spiritual teacher. JW do not accept the Trinity. They often quote John 14:28 where Jesus says “the Father is greater than I.” And Mark 24: 32-36:
“36 But of that day and hour no man knoweth, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”
JW might say that Jesus cannot be God, because Jesus says that only the Father knows the day and hour. If Jesus were God, he would be omniscient and He would know the day and hour. Further, if the Holy Spirit were God, He would know the day and hour, but it says that only the Father knows the day or hour.

I believe you have correctly stated the JW viewpoint but sadly, their viewpoint is the only side they will view. While there are probably other verses that show the human side of Jesus there are still more that show the divine side that JWs would rather overlook. Whats interesting for me is I have never met a JW who has studied the early church heresies to understand what the Catholic Church declares the Trinity NOT to be. The summary of the Trinity is “Jesus is God” and this summary is all that is focused on then it is understandable why they don’t believe in the Trinity. Sadly, the Trinity is not only about its summary of “Jesus is God”.

On a side note, it is well known there were many heresies in the early church. If “the Trinity” was one of them, and the JWs were around at the time disputing it, they would also have to be disputing the other heresies that were non-JW also. Where is the evidence of this? Is the only historical evidence of other early heretical refutations evidence from the Trinitarian sect?

Peace!!!

 

[Pepband_Mom]

That doesn’t answer any of what I said… Why don’t you take the time to study the Bible? It’s best to invest that energy an time on studying on what you believe an see what the Bible says forget about everything else… You studying a religion u know very little about bringing things of a 100 years ago… What you telling me I know already… Bibles always change… I mean u get a king James version an then u get a new King James version… Why? It’s to keep up with the English used at the present time… So that people can easily understand it when they read it… Do people speak English the way they did in 1972? Imagine reading something in a language u won’t understand… Yes you have a select number of scriptures an that’s the same scriptures what everyone else has… The amazing thing is sometimes how we use your own Bible’s to show u things u never knew… Then u can’t say the Bible has been changed… So if u want to have a Bible discussion on why we belief in things we do we can I’ll gladly show u from ur own Bible, an then u can show me from ur Bible that’s how we measure truth

Which Church preserved the entire Bible for YOU? Wouldn’t it stand to reason that same caretaker of the Bible would INTERPRET it with great care? I’ve been down that road, listened to people who had NO CLUE about a particular verse so I don’t interpret myself.

Your comments about my Bible study is curious.

I have “sung” the Bible for 30 years; one parish I was in for 10 years had a library of over 600 songs & we had done all of them. I can sing verses in song all day long. A saint once said, “He who sings prays twice”. Hymns can have a deep impact and cause you to ponder a verse. Is that not a form of “Bible study”?

Bottom line: HOW do you integrate the Bible into your life? Where is evidence in the WTBTS world of implementation of the Beautitudes: hospitals, schools, cemetaries, soup kitchens, orphanages, etc? Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, bury the dead… Are those verses telling us to ACT upon something?

Attributed to St Francis about preaching the gospel: if necessary use words…

I commend you for your study But at the end of the day how does WT reach out to the masses unconditionally with love as per what the Lord Jesus Christ commands?

 

[Cincinnatus1788]

My understanding is No, they do not. But they believe Jesus to be a great prophet. and spiritual teacher. JW do not accept the Trinity. They often quote John 14:28 where Jesus says “the Father is greater than I.” And Mark 24: 32-36:
“36 But of that day and hour no man knoweth, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”
JW might say that Jesus cannot be God, because Jesus says that only the Father knows the day and hour. If Jesus were God, he would be omniscient and He would know the day and hour. Further, if the Holy Spirit were God, He would know the day and hour, but it says that only the Father knows the day or hour.

How would a JW explain John 20:28? Jesus accepts Thomas’s proclamation, “my Lord and my God”? If Jesus was not God, wouldn’t he have corrected him?

 

[Tomdstone]

How would a JW explain John 20:28? Jesus accepts Thomas’s proclamation, “my Lord and my God”? If Jesus was not God, wouldn’t he have corrected him?

Their explanation is the following: they say that many times a person uses the term OMG (O my God) to express surprise or astonishment. It does not mean that the person is saying that someone is God.

 

[Cincinnatus1788]

Their explanation is the following: they say that many times a person uses the term OMG (O my God) to express surprise or astonishment. It does not mean that the person is saying that someone is God.

What would a JW say about Matthew 1:23? “…they will call his name Emmanuel” (Emmanuel meaning, God is with us)?

 

[Cincinnatus1788]

Their explanation is the following: they say that many times a person uses the term OMG (O my God) to express surprise or astonishment. It does not mean that the person is saying that someone is God.

Would Thomas upon seeing the greatest miracle in all of human history really have taken the ‘Lord’s’ and ‘God’s’ name in vain?

 

[DelsonJacobs]

My name is Caleb M., and I will be taking over for “DelsonJacobs” who is no longer able to answer questions due to a big change in his life. While I was never one of Jehovah’s Witnesses I do have some firsthand knowledge of them that might be helpful. Some have asked Delson to return, and when he wasn’t able I was asked if I would step in. I am a Roman Catholic.

One example is Christmas {sic} Catholics an[d] Protestants both celebrate it yet the Bible no where mentions a date of Jesus birth, people have justified the celebration coming up with many reasonings yet it was never a practise mentioned anywhere in the Bible…

My question: Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses keep getting their facts about Christmas wrong?

Christmas is not the birthday of Jesus, it is a religious commemoration of the “birth” of Jesus–the miracle of the Incarnation. A birthday lasts 24 hours and is observed on the date of a person’s birth, but Christmas is an 8-day observance known as a solemnity. It marks the event of the miracle of the Nativity when God came to us in the Person of Jesus Christ.

The name of this religious feast is actually “The Nativity of the Lord,” and except for English (where it goes by a word which is a combination of “Christ” and “mass”) it is referred by this name. You have probably noticed that in French it is “Noel” and Spanish “Navidad” and in Italian “Natale.” When people say they are commemorating the birth of Jesus during Christmas, it is not the same as holding or observing a birthday celebration.

The most ancient date known by Christians for the date of Christ’s birth also happens to be the date of his execution, Nisan 14 on the Jewish calendar. Sextus Julius Africanus (circa 160 – c. 240 C.E.), for example, is one of the earliest Christian authorities on this matter. Since the Church already observed the Pasch at this time of the year, the date had to be different. (It is also curious that in every language but English, the observance of the Resurrection observance goes by its Jewish name, “Passover” or Pasch, but in English it is called “Easter.”)

There is some evidence that Saturnalia was purposefully chosen to be replaced since the weather around the Winter Solstice (December 21) stands in stark contrast to the life of rebirth around Pasch.

In ancient Roman culture heathen gods were customarily viewed as defeated by renaming their temples and celebrations in honor of the conquering one. When Christianity became the State religion the Roman Christians followed this custom. They did away with observing days in honor of heathen gods and instead dedicated all they did to Christ. One of the last vestiges of paganism was Saturnalia (pagan feast on December 25), so this may have been another reason for the December date, but contrary to the claims of anti-Catholics, academics are no longer in favor of arguments that it was a purposeful replacement of Saturnalia itself.

The Solemnity of the Nativity is followed by the Feast of the Epiphany. This date fell 4 days after the last day of Christmas, and since the events of the Epiphany (the visit of the Christ Child by the Magi) were closely linked to the birth of Jesus (although not happening at the same time), Christians generally kept their merrymaking going until all 12 days were complete. Thus the Solemnity of Christmas is often called “The Twelve Days of Christmas” which is featured as the title of a famous holiday song.

Now this isn’t a birthday celebration as Jehovah’s Witnesses continue to claim it is. When was the last time you heard of anyone celebrating a birthday for 8 or 12 continuous days? The Nativity is a religious observance marking the importance of Christ’s coming into the world. It concentrates on the fact that the King of God’s Kingdom has come, and the Church reads and prays and studies (and even sings) the accounts of Christ’s birth from the Gospels during this time in commemoration of this event during this season.

In some areas the local customs of the people are incorporated. While Witnesses are fond of pointing out that the origins of Christmas trees and the Yule log are not Christian, they do not realize that these are not Church customs. They are customs of the people of the pagan nations that converted to Christianity.

Should we stop observing our local customs of Christmas because they came from our ancestors who were once pagans? Since only the Jews can claim that their ethnic customs are not pagan, the only customs that Gentiles have to celebrate with are the ones their people have used for centuries. If you are not a Jew, you names, your customs, the language you use, everything about you is basically derived from pagan customs. What other customs would people of the nations use to celebrate any observance whether it was Christmas or not?

Christians are not obligated to observe Jewish customs or laws. Are people of one nation supposed to give up their customs, their way of dress, their language, their traditions when becoming Christian? If they are, what do they replace them with? No, people live and speak in ways handed down from their pagan ancestors, but these customs are not necessarily pagan acts anymore. If that were true then every person who wears a wedding ring would be engaged in paganism, a custom most every married JW keeps too.

Yes, the Bible doesn’t give a date for the birthday of Christ. But it’s not an issue because the Catholic Church doesn’t observe or celebrate the birthday of Jesus on December 25th. It’s a feast that begins on the sundown of the day before and lasts more than a week, an annual observance where our minds are focused on the infancy narratives of the Gospels and what these mean for our lives. If observing the birth of Christ in celebration was wrong, why did angels do it in song as mentioned in the Bible?

 

[DelsonJacobs]

There are misconceptions about Jehovah’s Witnesses that I might be able to clear up too. It is best for Catholics to always have the most accurate information so that we are not guilty of the mistakes many Jehovah’s Witnesses make regarding Catholic teachings.

Misconception 1: Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in Jesus.

Actually they do. They consider themselves Christians, but they don’t believe that Jesus is the Incarnation of God or Second Person of the Trinity. Otherwise Jehovah’s Witnesses have great faith in Jesus as Savior and Messiah. It is the identity of this Savior in relation to God that differs.

Misconception 2: Jehovah’s Witnesses share almost no beliefs with us.

Actually the majority of Witness beliefs are adaptations of Catholicism. Take for instance their belief in a Paradise Earth under God’s Kingdom.

I remember hearing one Witness claim that this teaching was unique to their religion. In fact it is a 2000 year-old Christian teaching that we make constant reference to when we pray the Lord’s Prayer, and when we recite the Apostles’ Creed (especially in the line “I believe in…the resurrection of the body”) and the Nicene Creed (wherein we state “I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come”).

Witnesses also accept the New Testament canon (which they call the “Christian Greek Scriptures”). The canon was established not by popular vote but by Church authority, and Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize this canonization as authoritative.

Misconception 3: Jehovah’s Witnesses are brain washed.

Actually Jehovah’s Witnesses are very aware of what they are doing and what they believe. They make a conscious choice to participate in their religion and the public preaching of it.

Some ex-members make claims that they were “brain washed” when they belonged to the JW ranks, but from a scientific and psychological standpoint there is no agreement on what actually constitutes “brain washing” or if such a thing truly exists. This is not to say that there is no coercion or even threat of excommunication (disfellowshipping and shunning) that might not have been used by some, but without a definitive agreement from the scientific community on the subject one cannot prove that Witnesses are engaged in such a process.

Besides, if they were “brain washing” people then each Witness would have to be highly educated in complex psychology. This is unlikely as former education required to learn such concepts is generally viewed as unacceptable for faithful Witnesses.

Misconception 4: Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult.

While people generally define religious cults as similar to the group that committed mass suicide under Jim Jones at Jonestown or the Branch Davidian group involved in the tragedy at Waco, Jehovah’s Witnesses are very different.

The religious movement of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is technically an ideological religious group. Their ideology consists of the belief that they and only they possess the “Truth” (a set of beliefs) essential to accept in order for a person to be approved by God. The ingredient that makes this an ideology is that this “fact” of their being the one true religion never changes, even though their doctrine constantly does.

In some cases ideological groups can be violent and deadly and promote terrorism, but just as often such movements promote pacifism. Ideologies can even be purely secular or non-theistic. This being the case, the Jehovah’s Witnesses should not be confused with terrorist groups or nationalist ideologies. They are peaceful people and strive to remain politically neutral.

Misconception 5: Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Catholics are servants of the Devil.

Not exactly. They do believe we are being blinded by the Devil and that when we worship God we are actually being fooled into offering worship to the Devil, but they don’t necessarily believe that we are doing this on purpose.

Of course how this gets interpreted by Witnesses may differ among individuals,but generally speaking they don’t view us as Satanic worshipers as if we belonged to some type of devilish coven. Yet they do believe that if we refuse to accept their message that we are unfortunately siding with Satan and his demons. And Jehovah’s Witnesses have no problem with distributing publications with graphic scenes portraying Jesus slaughtering Catholics and their children (often in grotesque and gruesome ways) at Armageddon. To add to this Witnesses often portray religious clergy in their illustrations with distorted faces and odd expressions that are clearly meant to suggest that they are under demonic influence.

 

[adf417]

Misconception 3: Jehovah’s Witnesses are brain washed.

Actually Jehovah’s Witnesses are very aware of what they are doing and what they believe. They make a conscious choice to participate in their religion and the public preaching of it.

Some ex-members make claims that they were “brain washed” when they belonged to the JW ranks, but from a scientific and psychological standpoint there is no agreement on what actually constitutes “brain washing” or if such a thing truly exists. This is not to say that there is no coercion or even threat of excommunication (disfellowshipping and shunning) that might not have been used by some, but without a definitive agreement from the scientific community on the subject one cannot prove that Witnesses are engaged in such a process.

Besides, if they were “brain washing” people then each Witness would have to be highly educated in complex psychology. This is unlikely as former education required to learn such concepts is generally viewed as unacceptable for faithful Witnesses.

Hello Caleb,
I agree with most of what you wrote but I wanted to interject something on this segment. I don’t use the word brain wash my self but there is an element to this I think you have not considered.

When JWs cannot consider what is actually in our heart (I’m speaking of what it is we worship and what we do not worship) but preach only what they have been told it is we worship, I think this is crossing the line. They will agree that only God knows true worship and they will agree that the only way we (outsiders) can know what they worship is only what they tell us. But they CANNOT profess the fact that Catholics may not actually be worshiping Mary or statues based on the same reasoning. This may not be brain washing but I wish I could come up with another label.

I do not know any religion or sect that can consider the truth of what we actually worship without effecting the doctrine of that religion other than the JWs.

I was accused of worshiping a statue by a JW once for typical reasons of posture so I asked her, ok then, how do i know what it is you worship sense I can’t see what the object you are worshiping (God)?

Response: you can know I worship God because I profess my worship.

Peace!!!

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Good points, adf417.

I didn’t add them to my comments because the accusation regarding “brain washing” is that Witnesses are forced to give up their ability to think, reason, and choose for themselves what to believe by highly intellectualized procedures that are *hidden from the view of the public and the JW membership itself. *

But you do bring up an important subject. There is a term for what you are discussing. It is called “confirmation bias.” It isn’t brain washing, though, and unfortunately it is not unique or exclusive to Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Yes, anyone can use forms of self-deception and self-justification like this as well.)

Confirmation bias is the act of confirming your beliefs only by considering and accepting as valid information that agrees with you. Often it includes accepting that something is true because it comes from a source you view as valid. It is a self-justifying, circular pattern that is often charged with emotion instead of reason. Confirmation bias leads to “belief perseverance,” that is holding on to one’s convictions even in the face of evidence that what one believes is wrong.

Instead of brain washing, a person actually chooses to ignore certain facts or judge their source as inappropriate. This is a close-minded way to live, but it isn’t the zombie-like state of brain washing that people wrongly accuse the Witnesses of engaging in.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

We have 5 meetings a week… Do you really think we discuss the same thing at those 5 meetings… Discussing the magazines is only done in 5 minutes at 1 of those meetings… None of those meetings ever discuss any religious beliefs from any religion so no we don’t go to meetings to learn about other religions, that we do in our personal study… I don’t even know when was the last time we used the reasoning from the scriptures book lol… The watchtower an awake is the most distributed magazines in the world today that you can Google an there not even a price tag on them, you worried about the ink that’s the last thing we worried about… We print new issues every month. Even though u might not like it or read any of it that does not count for the number of other ppl who do… Catholics tend to think that the magazines is about them you should realise that you have beliefs that are the same as many protestant beliefs… Shouldn’t feel guilty when scripture is used to show why we don’t agree with those beliefs… One example is Christmas Catholics an Protestants both celebrate it yet the Bible no where mentions a date of Jesus birth, people have justified the celebration coming up with many reasonings yet it was never a practise mentioned anywhere in the Bible… So don’t think that magazines are made to attack Catholics, it’s just to show what the Bible says you have a choice to read it or not we don’t force u, but realise that whatever your response to anything we do or publish does not affect us, Jesus said because the world hated me it will hate you too on account of my name… So all these negative things is expected… You will not mention one good thing about Jehovah’s Witnesses, maybe for once try to look at the good too

Please look @ these ? & they’ve been hashed over on these forums many times:

Where does it say in the Bible & where did Jesus say to: “read the Bible”?
I have a DISTINCT problem with: “when scripture is used to show” & the “bible”
WHO uses scripture to show when don’t agree with beliefs?
WHO is translating
WHICH “Bible”
WHERE is list of credentials, scholarship, ancient languages, doctorates, etc.
BY WHOSE AUTHORITY does Russell, Rutherford, Franz, GB have (1800 years late on the scene) to promote a “NWT”.

I own several editions of WTBTS “bibles” & not impressed with the ARBITRARY changes. They have changed scripture numerous times, altered meanings & have rarely seen [brackets] inserted to the extent it is in the NWT. These changes inflict damage, worse yet do violence to the text. which makes for difficult “study”.

Byington’s The Bible In Living English & the NWT have 180 polar opposite meanings in John 1:1. Both printed by WTBTS. My ?: Which is right & which is wrong? why completely opposite Jn 1:1 verses? Byington: the Word was God & NWT the Word was a god… & do you consider both correct? If one is “wrong” why did the WT print the wrong one?

Few if any credible scholars outside the WTBTS realm consider the NWT as an honest translation. The NWT is incomplete at best & that’s being generous.

Who stands the most to lose for you not believing Jesus is God & there is a Trinity, Eucharist, Sacraments, etc? WTBTS does not exist to teach these beautiful truths.

 

[minkymurph]

That doesn’t answer any of what I said… Why don’t you take the time to study the Bible? It’s best to invest that energy an time on studying on what you believe an see what the Bible says forget about everything else… You studying a religion u know very little about bringing things of a 100 years ago… What you telling me I know already… Bibles always change… I mean u get a king James version an then u get a new King James version… Why? It’s to keep up with the English used at the present time… So that people can easily understand it when they read it… Do people speak English the way they did in 1972? Imagine reading something in a language u won’t understand… Yes you have a select number of scriptures an that’s the same scriptures what everyone else has… The amazing thing is sometimes how we use your own Bible’s to show u things u never knew… Then u can’t say the Bible has been changed… So if u want to have a Bible discussion on why we belief in things we do we can I’ll gladly show u from ur own Bible, an then u can show me from ur Bible that’s how we measure truth

Hi Chosen One.

To comment on your post:

Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) is a Protestant principle and thus not one I adhere to. I would add that in my view many people who claim to adhere to SS in fact adhere to an individual’s or group of individuals interpretation of Scripture based on the premise God is with them and thus they have the correct interpretation. To illustrate; Lutherans, Calvinists and the JW Governing Body?

The message of the Gospel was simple - Christ died, (to redeem humankind) Christ rose, Christ will come again. No one can contest Christ taught Baptism, Holy Communion, and Confirmation. These beliefs are the essence of Christianity, handed down from the
Apostles way before the New Testament was written, and expressed in the Creed of the Church. I believe that Creed and for me, there’s no more to it.

I have studied the Bible. I have a Foundation Certificate in Theology and studied Biblical exegesis at university level for four years. I like the OT but other than the Gospels and the Book of Acts, I don’t think you would be missing much if you have not read anything else in the NT, I don’t think it’s needed.:bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes:

To explain, Philemon is a nice story but that’s all. Galatians and Ephesians are letters of encouragement and can achieve the same today, but there’s nothing of great theological significance in them. That said, that is a personal opinion. I am not suggesting people should not read the other books of the NT if they derive benefits from doing so.

I don’t believe the Bible was written in order for anyone to prove their religion is right, and thus I don’t think the Bible should be used in this way. I believe the Bible to be inspired but I don’t understand the term ‘inspired’ to mean dictated word for word, and I also think there are occasions when people interpret Scripture in a manner the author never intended. To me, the Bible is not a theological rule book but rather a book of guidance.

A point of birthdays - the Angels celebrated the birth of Christ and he received a Lamb. Other than the visit of the Magi and at the Temple the Bible says very little about Jesus childhood, so we don’t know what he did. As a Jew, it is likely he celebrated Jewish festivals. Thus, when I have a party for my kids birthdays, give them a card and a present I don’t believe God is looking down on the proceedings disapprovingly. Neither do I think God is looking on disapprovingly from heaven when people celebrate Christmas on the day designated for that purpose as opposed to the exact date, and just because Jesus did not command us to do something does not mean we should not.

As I am not infallible people are of course entitled to disagree. This is just my two cents worth.

 

[adf417]

Good points, adf417.

I didn’t add them to my comments because the accusation regarding “brain washing” is that Witnesses are forced to give up their ability to think, reason, and choose for themselves what to believe by highly intellectualized procedures that are *hidden from the view of the public and the JW membership itself. *

But you do bring up an important subject. There is a term for what you are discussing. It is called “confirmation bias.” It isn’t brain washing, though, and unfortunately it is not unique or exclusive to Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Yes, anyone can use forms of self-deception and self-justification like this as well.)

Confirmation bias is the act of confirming your beliefs only by considering and accepting as valid information that agrees with you. Often it includes accepting that something is true because it comes from a source you view as valid. It is a self-justifying, circular pattern that is often charged with emotion instead of reason. Confirmation bias leads to “belief perseverance,” that is holding on to one’s convictions even in the face of evidence that what one believes is wrong.

Instead of brain washing, a person actually chooses to ignore certain facts or judge their source as inappropriate. This is a close-minded way to live, but it isn’t the zombie-like state of brain washing that people wrongly accuse the Witnesses of engaging in.

I’m sure the term “brainwashing” is taking on new meanings from different users. I have never associated it with a zombie- like state of mind.

At any rate, thank you for the terms above. They do fit the profiles.

Peace!!!

 

[chasingcars]

Once you get there, they’ll start “love-bombing” you and try to make you like them. They’ll be very nice, friendly and polite to you. They’ll probably tell you that they’re really happy you came to the meeting and ask what made you come. After the meeting they’d maybe like to get your phone number so they could call you later and ask you if you want to study NWT and WTBS’ publications with you.

 

[adf417]

Once you get there, they’ll start “love-bombing” you and try to make you like them. They’ll be very nice, friendly and polite to you. They’ll probably tell you that they’re really happy you came to the meeting and ask what made you come. After the meeting they’d maybe like to get your phone number so they could call you later and ask you if you want to study NWT and WTBS’ publications with you.

another gospel trait I personally try to improve on daily.

Peace!!!

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Once you get there, they’ll start “love-bombing” you and try to make you like them. They’ll be very nice, friendly and polite to you. They’ll probably tell you that they’re really happy you came to the meeting and ask what made you come. After the meeting they’d maybe like to get your phone number so they could call you later and ask you if you want to study NWT and WTBS’ publications with you.

You are correct that they are very kind to visitors to their meetings and are eager to offer one of their free home Bible studies, but they really don’t engage in “love-bombing.”

Some cult movements engage in “love-bombing” which is a false concern and an act put on by members to make potential converts feel extremely loved, accepted, and often to hide something from the new person. It is generally performed in a frenzy and involves cutting the person off from both the public and often food (which in turn can create a hypnotic drug like effect). It is often the first step to what people call “brainwashing.”

While friendly, Jehovah’s Witnesses are guarded. They will not immediately take to visitors outside of social niceties. Even new ones who are studying with them and regularly attending meetings will not be fully accepted into their social circles until they become an active publisher or public witness who regularly reports activity each month in preaching. Once it is recognized that such a person is in good standing do Witnesses tend to open up beyond surface social conventions.

 

[jlhargus]

Shouldn’t feel guilty when scripture is used to show why we don’t agree with those beliefs… One example is Christmas Catholics an Protestants both celebrate it yet the Bible no where mentions a date of Jesus birth,

I have yet to see a scripture that would make me feel guilty or that refuted a Catholic teaching there is not such scripture. I notice you posted no scripture forbidding birthdays or holidays, why? Because there is none. Why would anyone feel guilty about celebrating Christmas or any holiday there is no scripture condemning celebrations, in fact Paul says let no man judge.

[Col2:16 **Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:]

The WT’s aversion, to holidays, borders on pure superstition. Your remark is like the skillet calling the pot black. Did you know JW’s celebrated Christmas through 1926? I guess someone had new light. New light isn’t supposed to contradict old light. Yet it did. Do celebrate Christmas don’t celebrate Christmas that’s a contradiction and flip flop in teaching not a development of a teaching.

[Christmas is so important, regardless of the date. WT 12/15/1926, p. 371] Source Index of Watch Tower Errors, Editor David A. Reed, Complied by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell.

people have justified the celebration coming up with many reasonings yet it was never a practice mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Yet the WT had no problem with it till after 1926 and the WT today tries to justify not celebrating, coming up with many reasonings. The Church doesn’t teach bible alone and bible alone isn’t mentioned anywhere in the bible. Isn’t it a little hypocritical to judge others guilty, when the WT is guilty of doing the same many times over?

For instance the bible never mentions anywhere Christ invisibly returning in 1914. In fact the bible teaches every eye will see him when he returns. Yet the WT has constantly tried to justify that doctrine with many reasonings. Claiming the generation of 1914 would not pass away before armageddon. Using the phrase, Millions now living will never die.

[Rv1:7 Behold, **he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. ]

Rv1:8 also tells us, he, which is to come is the Almighty. Who was pierced? Who is to come? Who is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending? Who is the Almighty? Answer, Jesus our Lord and God as Thomas rightly names him.

[Jn20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And **Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.]

Also the bible never mentions anywhere the Man Jesus Christ went out of existence when he died on the cross and was raised a spirit being Michael. In fact its just the opposite, scripture clearly teaches, the man Jesus Christ was bodily raised and is in heaven.

[Jn2:19 **Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. ]

[Lk24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 **Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.] CONTINUED

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUE
Once again the bible never mentions the WT teaching anywhere that Christ’s body was dissolved. Again the WT contradicts scripture with a tradition of men not found anywhere in the bible.

[1Tm2:5 For there is one God, and **one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;]

In 1Tm2:5 the word used for men and man in Greek is anthropos=human being, whether male or female. Strong’s Greek definition #444. According to the bible Christ our mediator is a human being in heaven. According to the WT a human being is a body only. If the man Jesus was not bodily raised from the dead, after dying, then what was raised after dying? What else could be raised from the dead, if a human being is body only as the WT teaches? How could scripture call Christ in heaven a human being if he doesn’t have a human beings body now glorified?

[Acts17:31 Because **he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.]

In Acts17:31 man=aner in Greek is man=individual male. Again we see Jesus, raised from the dead, is a man in heaven who is appointed to judge the world. Once more the WT is contradicting the bible with a tradition of men not found in the bible.

The bible never mentions anywhere only 144 thousand, the only ones to be born again according to the WT, will be in heaven and the rest of JWs, the great crowd, who aren’t saved (born again) but considered dead by the WT, can only hope they will be saved by their works and being found good enough to live on earth forever.

Yet again The bible never mentions anywhere heaven was closed in 1935 to anyone born after that year. I find that teaching unconscionable.

[Mt23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for **ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. ]

The bible never mentions only 144 thousand could take communion. All this was simply made up by Rutherford.

Nowhere is it found in the bible, the WT’s view of the great crowd, who the WT considers not born again, But having only the hope of being saved and live on the earth never going to heaven. In fact that WT teaching condradicts the bible. We clearly see in Rv19:1-6 and Rv7:9 the great multitude or crowd are actually in heaven Rv19:1 flat out says so.

[Rv7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a **great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and ]b]before the Lamb]/b], clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;]

[Rv19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of **much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2 … 3 … 4 … 5 … 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.]

According to Strong’s Greek definition #4183 the word in Rv19:1 much=polus the same Greek word used in Rv7:9 & Rv19:6, great=polus. In Rv19:1 people=ochlos=multitude same word used in Rv7:9 multitude=ochlos and in Rv19:6. Strong’s Greek definition #3793.
CONTINUED:

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUE FROM ABOVE

If the date doesn’t really matter then why wait till the 25th of December? Just following a man made ideal… There’s nothing wrong with Jesus birth it’s just that as Jehovah’s Witnesses we won’t follow something that’s not in the Bible

LOL, [Christmas is so important, regardless of the date. WT 12/15/1926, p. 371] Source Index of Watch Tower Errors, Editor David A. Reed, Complied by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell.

Then you should have no problem posting scripture for all the above WT teachings I posted. You wont as they are nowhere found in scripture, therefore man made ideas see above JW teachings not found in the bible.

especially putting our own date on it…

How about all the dates, set by the WT not found in the bible anywhere? 1914, 1918, 1925 , 1935, 1975. I remember 1975 my sister in law a JW was convinced as was all JW’s that the end would come in 1975. Many JWs left there jobs, sold their homes and property to do pioneer service ending up without a home or job after 1975. And the WT blamed the people for beleiving what they published. I have read over a million left the WT after 1975.

And to be honest with u there’s many pastors we have preached to that has agreed that Christmas is no where in the Bible but they will never change there beliefs because they know they will lose a lot of members and in turn alot of money, they also more worried about there name, they forget the importance of sharing Bible truth

Give me a break, Christmas on the 25th is not a matter of belief, as your 1914 & 1935 dates, not found in the bible anywhere and the other WT teachings posted above. I don’t know any pastor who has or would ever claim it’s in the bible. Nor any Catholic so ignorant as to leave the Church because it isn’t. By the way how much money did the WT lose after 1975? CONTINUED BELOW

 

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED FROM ABOVE

So all these negative things is expected… You will not mention one good thing about Jehovah’s Witnesses, maybe for once try to look at the good too

It would also be nice if JW’s would do likewise. Speaking of not mentioning one good thing. I read hundreds of WT magazines in the 1970’s. What struck me was the venom about all other faiths especially the Catholic Church. The magazines had nothing good to say about governments, business or anything apart from the WT. It appears the WT is trying to soften their attacks today.

U can’t mix light with dark… If you found truth an you have light and believe the rest of us are in the dark I ask that you teach us then… Show me the light that u have found in the bible now

True you can’t mix light with dark nor can you switch back and forth tacking in the wind, from old light to new light then back to the old light, as the WT has done throughout its short history. According to WT teaching new light can’t contradict old light yet it has every time they have changed a teaching. Before the fifties the WT magazine taught to worship Jesus. Then the WT had new light saying its wrong to worship Jesus. That’s a total contradiction, of course Jesus wasn’t Michael before that contradicting new light.

There are many more examples of the same contradictions in your old WT magazines, look them up. I challenge you if you are seriously interested in knowing light from dark. By the way where is new light and old light found in scripture? Is it just light flashing up as Rutherford said when he made 1935 the cut off date for heaven? That means he didn’t get it from bible. He made it up or was considered a prophet by the WT, which is it?

The truth and the light is Jesus Christ who died for every human being’s sins, not just 144 thousand. Every human being who believes in Christ, repents, is baptized for remission of sins receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. Being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one is born again by water and of the Spirit, Jn3:5, and has eternal life if they persevere to the end.

There is no such thing as two gospels one for a heavenly class of 144 thousand born again spirit filled and declared righteous persons. And another gospel for a spiritually dead earthly class never born again who can only hope by their works they will be found worth to live on earth. The bible pertains to all Christians not only to 144 thousand with a few verses pertaining to a second class the great crowd. There are only a few verses that actually deal with the 144 thousand and those verses are only in Revelation. The bible actually tells us God will dwell with all his people on a new earth and new heaven=universe.

[2Pt3:10 But **the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein **the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? **1 3 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.]

All creation will be regenerated and cleansed just as those who are baptized are cleansed and sanctified regenerated by water and of the Spirit.

[Rv21:1 And **I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.]

[Rv21:22 And **I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.]

[Acts1:8 But **ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.] The New Testament tells says Christians are to be Jesus Christ’s witnesses. Jehovah isn’t even the correct name, no one knows for sure but Yahwah is considered more correct than Jehovah. You would think when Christ came back in 1914 he would have a lest given the correct spelling and pronunciation to the WT if it was so important. There is salvation in no other name, than Jesus Christ whereby we can be saved.

[Acts4:10 **Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.]