What do you do if you regret converting?

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The basic fact is that you are essentially objecting to what the Holy Bible taught of marriage from the beginning of the Church!

God bless, Trishie
Thanks. Have a happy 2011.

I guess in a sense I am objecting to what Christianity has always tought. It doesn’t seem fair. Why did God have to do such a shoddy job at creating us? He creates marriage, and human beings to desire marriage, and then creates humans so that marriage will actually interfere with their spiritual growth. It’s seems like a horrible Catch-22. :confused:
 
Wow, if you have a digital copy could you send it to me?
😦 I’m currently in Afghanistan. I’ll take a look to see if I can find a copy on the harddrive I brought with me, but if not I’ll have to send it to you after I get back…
 
And I think this is what both Augustine and Jerome are reiterating in their own ways.And you can see that in the above cited chapter of 1st Corinthians.I think you give the reformers et al too much credit and too little to Augustine and Jerome and the Catholic Church because if you take all this in the context it is offered, both in scripture and in the writings of these 2 doctors of the Church, you find that the Catholic Church actually teaches the scriptural position. That it is not a sin to marry, but that celibacy for the Kingdom of God is the ideal. But both vocations are the best good for those who are called to them. No matter what we are doing…we are all called to chastity and obedience as we discern the will of God. The reformers and their modern step children tend to try to make out as if that passage in Matthew 19 doesn’t exist, hence, their general lack of celibate clergy. The honest believer doesn’t read around passages that make statements like this one does. (Another one that gets done like this is John 20:21-23 about confessing sins) 🤷
Maybe I do. And I don’t know the context in which they were writing either.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that everyone has to marry, or even that everyone should marry. I fully support having a celibate clergy.
 
😦 I’m currently in Afghanistan. I’ll take a look to see if I can find a copy on the harddrive I brought with me, but if not I’ll have to send it to you after I get back…
Please be careful! :eek:
 
One last thought for a while…

How can a sacrament make it more difficult to progress in holiness? Does frequent reception of communion do the same thing?

Because if marriage really does make it more difficult to progress in holiness, then it can’t be a sacrament.
 
St. John Chrysostom suggests that young husbands should say to their wives: I have taken you in my arms, and I love you, and I prefer you to my life itself. For the present life is nothing, and my most ardent dream is to spend it with you in such a way that we may be assured of not being separated in the life reserved for us. . . . I place your love above all things, and nothing would be more bitter or painful to me than to be of a different mind than you.

-Catechism of the Catholic Church 2365

The long-held position of the Church dating back to the Patristic age is that marriage is a means of promoting the mutual salvation of the spouses.

-ACEGC
 
Thanks. Have a happy 2011.

I guess in a sense I am objecting to what Christianity has always tought. It doesn’t seem fair. Why did God have to do such a shoddy job at creating us? He creates marriage, and human beings to desire marriage, and then creates humans so that marriage will actually interfere with their spiritual growth. It’s seems like a horrible Catch-22. :confused:
Lucy, I have not read through the whole thread, but I found myself confused by this post. What makes you say that marriage interferes with spiritual growth? Do you not believe that God is able to perfect us no matter what our circumstance in life?
One last thought for a while…

How can a sacrament make it more difficult to progress in holiness? Does frequent reception of communion do the same thing?

Because if marriage really does make it more difficult to progress in holiness, then it can’t be a sacrament.
A sacrament is a tangible/visible means through which God’s grace flows to increase our holiness.

I am not sure what you mean by “difficult”. The presence of God’s grace does not mean we will never suffer, struggle, or have difficulties. It just assures us that greater is He that is in us, and that He will work all things to our good.
 
One last thought for a while…

How can a sacrament make it more difficult to progress in holiness? Does frequent reception of communion do the same thing?

Because if marriage really does make it more difficult to progress in holiness, then it can’t be a sacrament.
No sacrament hinders our progress to holiness in of itself and with Communion how could receiving the Lord Himself more offend hinder Holiness as He is the summit of Holiness which we must aspired toward.

Marriage does introduce many distractions but if both spouses are in the journey together they can **actually make it easy for each other **but if one is not on the journey then the one who is not on the journey could hinder holiness for the other and this is where marriage is more difficult in some ways because a single person would not have this hindrance but also remember a single person would also not have the support of a spouse who is also on the journey so you can see it depends on the situation.
 
No sacrament hinders our progress to holiness in of itself and with Communion how could receiving the Lord Himself more offend hinder Holiness as He is the summit of Holiness which we must aspired toward.

Marriage does introduce many distractions but if both spouses are in the journey together they can **actually make it easy for each other **but if one is not on the journey then the one who is not on the journey could hinder holiness for the other and this is where marriage is more difficult in some ways because a single person would not have this hindrance but also remember a single person would also not have the support of a spouse who is also on the journey so you can see it depends on the situation.
No person can hinder the holiness of the committed disciple. Such a person, on the contrary, provides many opportunities for one to pray for one’s enemies, to bless those who curse you, and to thrive spiritually in the midst of oppression. God knows where the rough edges are within us, and allows whatever situation will perfect us in growing the fruit of the Spirit.
 
One last thought for a while…

How can a sacrament make it more difficult to progress in holiness? Does frequent reception of communion do the same thing?

Because if marriage really does make it more difficult to progress in holiness, then it can’t be a sacrament.
Lucy,
the thing you seem to be missing is that people have different needs, different abilities and different callings. Some are called to be celibate for the Glory of God. For them, marriage would be an impediment. Others are called to the married life, for them marriage is indeed a blessing. he world needs both. Without the clergy, there would be no sacraments. Without marriage, there would be no clergy (or next generation at all). I myself am married and have 4 children. They have taught me to love and this is what I was called to do. Others were called to be priest and religious and I am most thankful for them and their full devotion to the rest of us. Not everyone can do that. It is a great calling but the world needs both the married and the unmarried to work. That’s why there are two sacraments of service: marriage and holy orders.
 
No person can hinder the holiness of the committed disciple. Such a person, on the contrary, provides many opportunities for one to pray for one’s enemies, to bless those who curse you, and to thrive spiritually in the midst of oppression. God knows where the rough edges are within us, and allows whatever situation will perfect us in growing the fruit of the Spirit.
That is true but the key word is committed right? Unless there is support from graces from God (so the other sacraments really become important) and other people of faith. It is hard for a person early in their journey to holiness to have the needed commitment. St Teresa of Avila has talked about this in her book on inner castles. When you get far enough along then the desire for God does make you so committed to achieving holiness that other can not distract you any longer. I know I am not at that point yet. Wish I was.
 
Thanks. Have a happy 2011.

I guess in a sense I am objecting to what Christianity has always tought. It doesn’t seem fair. Why did God have to do such a shoddy job at creating us? He creates marriage, and human beings to desire marriage, and then creates humans so that marriage will actually interfere with their spiritual growth. It’s seems like a horrible Catch-22. :confused:
Don’t forget to factor into the equation that God created the world one way, before the Fall, and that things changed when the Fall occurred and there was Original Sin. From that point on, it’s been a bumpier road.
 
Yeah, it probably was an emotional conversion. I don’t know if I would have joined if not for my fear about my surgery.

I’m studying a lot, though I’m staying away from the Church Fathers, since reading some of the things they wrote helped to start my current crisis. But I’m not going to get into that now. I’m reading different books and Church documents.

I’m actually trying that angle (assuming that the Church is wrong) and seeing if I can find anything to contradict that.
That’s good. Usually the first conversion is an emotional one, even if you’re an adult. Since my Confirmation a few years ago (I had been 10 years or so away from the Church at that point, then came back) I’ve had to go through several conversions. I’m beginning to think that conversion is a series of events, rather than one big grand event.

Heck, I’m going through a mini-conversion right now, because even though I was assenting to the beliefs of the Church in my mind and heart, I wasn’t following through on them in my life. Somewhere along the way I forgot the practical aspect of faith.

I wouldn’t worry too much if you converted because of a surgery. A lot of times, God uses crises moments in our lives to talk to us, or shout at us if he needs to. Its a starting point.

Be kind to yourself during this time too. That piece of utterly stupid **** (seriously, what freaking creature from that high up in heaven decides he’s going to battle with his Creator? stupid, stupid, stupid) that is the devil likes nothing more than to get you being harsh on yourself.

I hope things go well for you-

Katoriku Rant
 
Thanks. Have a happy 2011.

I guess in a sense I am objecting to what Christianity has always tought. It doesn’t seem fair. Why did God have to do such a shoddy job at creating us? He creates marriage, and human beings to desire marriage, and then creates humans so that marriage will actually interfere with their spiritual growth. It’s seems like a horrible Catch-22. :confused:
I don’t believe the idea is that marriage always, invariably retards spiritual growth. As you say, God created marriage, and Jesus reaffirmed its goodness. Marriage existed in Eden before the Fall, and now it’s a sacrament that gives us a foretaste of what union with God will be like.

Both Scripture and Church teaching seem clear that celibacy is the higher calling, but that doesn’t make marriage a bad thing. Both Jesus and Paul, in the same breath with their advocacy of celibacy, make it clear that not everyone is called to the unmarried state.

Like any earthly attachment, marriage can be a distraction from God, and undoubtedly that is what Jesus, Paul, and the Fathers warned against (just as they warned against attachment to money and property without requiring everyone to live in deliberate poverty). However, we also have the assurance from God and the Church that marriage can be a means of sanctification, the primary arena in which the majority of people will live out their Christian walks and learn to love others as much as themselves.

At different periods in history, Church writers have focused on different aspects of marriage. It does seem as though there was a period during which the positive aspects of marriage were downplayed, something that has happily changed. (It’s all too easy, when holding up one thing as “the best,” to fall into the trap of painting a contrasting thing in a bad light, even if the latter is itself good. Look at the cases on this board where Catholics arguing against sola scriptura sometimes fall into the trap of downplaying or badmouthing the Scriptures themselves, rather than their misuse.) It’s even possible that the Reformers helped give the Church a needed push in that direction – they weren’t wrong about everything, and had they taken slightly different paths, they might have been numbered among the greatest Catholic saints of their age.

Remember that Jesus chose to be brought up by a married couple. St. Peter was a married man, and though he may have left his family for a time to travel with Jesus, later on Paul strongly implies that Peter took his wife along on his apostolic mission (and tradition says she joined Peter and Paul in martyrdom under Nero). Those and the large number of other married saints testify by their lives that marriage can promote sanctity.

You might ask around to see if Eastern Catholics have a different historical perspective on marriage. Augustine’s influence is greatest in the West, and saint though he was, the man had issues. Much like someone who quits smoking or drinking after a long struggle and immediately becomes a zealous crusader against the practice, Augustine’s personal history of sexual sin seems to have primed him to view even marriage with suspicion.

Usagi
 
From the Council of Trent, Session 24 1563

" by this bond two only are united and joined together, our Lord taught more plainly, when rehearsing those last words as having been uttered by God, He said, therefore now they are not two, but one flesh; and straightway confirmed the firmness of that tie, proclaimed so long before by Adam, by these words; What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. But, the grace which might perfect that natural love, and confirm that indissoluble union, and sanctify the married, Christ Himself, the institutor and perfecter of the venerable sacraments, merited for us by His passion; as the Apostle Paul intimates, saying: Husbands love your wives, as Christ also loved the Church, and delivered himself up for it; adding shortly after, This is a great sacrament, but I speak in Christ and in the Church. Whereas therefore matrimony, in the evangelical law, excels in grace, through Christ, the ancient marriages; with reason have our holy Fathers, the Councils, and the tradition of the universal Church, always taught, that it is to be numbered amongst the sacraments of the new law; against which, impious men of this age raging, have not only had false notions touching this venerable sacrament

At this website is listed some of the Married Saints and Blesseds throughout the centuries Initially only martyrs were canonized as saints, but the 4th century, 'confessors… those who witness by word and life, were added to those canonized.

books.google.com.au/books?id=MpDiGKG4FSsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=married+Saints+and+beatifieds&source=bl&ots=D8dUzzEQcf&sig=3VlJcvievTtiUsWt7tyBOXcoC_o&hl=en&ei=EjciTceIM4TevwOppvT3DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

You may find that in beatifying and canonizing married persons the Church was revealing its awareness that marriage can in fact lead to holiness. This book is available in full at the given website.
 
There’s the problem. St Thomas Aquinas’ works do not represent church teaching in that they are not infallible. Much of what St Thomas Aquinas wrote is good, and is both in line with and proof for many church doctrines. Some of it is not. This is the point of spiritual growth: even the saints grow in understanding as they grow in faith.

The church has always taught that marraige is a calling from God.
The problem is the church makes no effort to correct these mistakes in St. Thomas Aquinas’ works, or indeed in any other saint’s writings. They keep being printed and with the imprimatur and nil obstat, without any attempt to show where they deviate from the Church’s teachings.

And it’s not just St. Thomas Aquinas.
 
St. John Chrysostom suggests that young husbands should say to their wives: I have taken you in my arms, and I love you, and I prefer you to my life itself. For the present life is nothing, and my most ardent dream is to spend it with you in such a way that we may be assured of not being separated in the life reserved for us. . . . I place your love above all things, and nothing would be more bitter or painful to me than to be of a different mind than you.

-Catechism of the Catholic Church 2365

The long-held position of the Church dating back to the Patristic age is that marriage is a means of promoting the mutual salvation of the spouses.

-ACEGC
What does ACEGC stand for?
 
Lucy, I have not read through the whole thread, but I found myself confused by this post. What makes you say that marriage interferes with spiritual growth? Do you not believe that God is able to perfect us no matter what our circumstance in life?
Of course I believe that marriage doesn’t necessarily interfere with spiritual growth, and that God is able to perfect us no matter what. **The question is, does the Church believe that? **
A sacrament is a tangible/visible means through which God’s grace flows to increase our holiness.

I am not sure what you mean by “difficult”. The presence of God’s grace does not mean we will never suffer, struggle, or have difficulties. It just assures us that greater is He that is in us, and that He will work all things to our good.
The point is many saints and theologians write about how marriage interferes with spiritual growth and make it very difficult to follow God. St. Alphonsus Ligouri is his writings about the spiritual life contrasts the death of a nun with the death of a wife. The nun dies peacefully because she knows she is going to heaven; the wife dies fearfully, because in all likelihood, she is going to Hell (or perhaps Purgatory.)

I’m saying that the Church is being dishonest by saying that she believes that marriage is a sacrament. If marriage is a sacrament, then it helps the married couple achieve holiness. If marriage does not help a married couple acheive holiness, then it is not a sacrament.
 
Of course I believe that marriage doesn’t necessarily interfere with spiritual growth, and that God is able to perfect us no matter what. **The question is, does the Church believe that? **

The point is many saints and theologians write about how marriage interferes with spiritual growth and make it very difficult to follow God. St. Alphonsus Ligouri is his writings about the spiritual life contrasts the death of a nun with the death of a wife. The nun dies peacefully because she knows she is going to heaven; the wife dies fearfully, because in all likelihood, she is going to Hell (or perhaps Purgatory.)

I’m saying that the Church is being dishonest by saying that she believes that marriage is a sacrament. If marriage is a sacrament, then it helps the married couple achieve holiness. If marriage does not help a married couple acheive holiness, then it is not a sacrament.
Given the honor marriage is given in the Catechism and the writings of Pope John Paul II, I think you are being dishonest in claiming what did in this post.
 
The Lord specifically asked Peter to start the church. It is just as human as it is non-human.
 
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