What do you do when a mormon tells you the cross is like a swatstika?

[momathome]

My husband and I are both lds (although I have a great interest in the Catholic Church and attended my first mass on Easter Sunday - a topic for another post). I have a protestant background and feel that the use of a cross is appropriate for a Christian. This doesn’t go over very well in the lds church. Last night my husband told me because its symbolism it was offensive, like somebody wearing a swatstika. Well, I kinda flipped out at that comparison. Can anybody provide very early church documentation of the use of the cross? Most lds believe that the cross wasn’t used until maybe the time of the council of Nicea, which then gets into the great apostosy.

Thanks.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Mom__,

This gets us into the questions : “Are LDS Christians?” Because if they are, then they should accept what Paul says in Galatians 6:14 :

But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world

.

That being said, there perhaps is no point in raising controversy. Especialy if your membership in that church is wobbly.

Verbum

 

[flameburns623]

momathome:

My husband and I are both lds (although I have a great interest in the Catholic Church and attended my first mass on Easter Sunday - a topic for another post). I have a protestant background and feel that the use of a cross is appropriate for a Christian. This doesn’t go over very well in the lds church. Last night my husband told me because its symbolism it was offensive, like somebody wearing a swatstika. Well, I kinda flipped out at that comparison. Can anybody provide very early church documentation of the use of the cross? Most lds believe that the cross wasn’t used until maybe the time of the council of Nicea, which then gets into the great apostosy.

Thanks.

The cross was not used very much nor often until very close to the 4th century (300’s AD). It literally was a badge of shame and as horrific to many as the swastika is today. In the excavations beneath the Vatican is a painting of Jesus as the god Apollo, riding a chariot which has various artistic oddities which reveal that this is really a Christian painting and not a pagan one. Among those symbols, I believe the spokes of the chariot highlight a stylized cross. This was a rather unusual piece of Christian iconography for it’s time and if memory serves it has been dated to sometime in the mid 200’s or so.

I think however that one can find plentiful references, even extra-biblical ones from the Apostolic Fathers, which reference the cross as a literary device showing that the shame it represents is a badge of honor for the Christian. However you should note also that there is another thread on this topic which cites numerous references from LDS General Authorities who speak highly of the cross: they have a rather schizophrenic view of the matter. On the one hand they do not wish to give the cross as an icon too prominent a place in their symbology. This is because so much of the Great Apostasy centered around the veneration of various relics, statues, and icons, chief among these the cross or crucifix. On the other hand–they recognize the cross as symbolizing the salvific moment at which “Tetelestai!” (“It is finished!”) was pronounced on behalf of all humankind.

Verbum:

This gets us into the questions : “Are LDS Christians?”

I think that if one wishes to paint the LDS as non-Christians, this would not be the issue one would use to illustrate the point. For one thing, as I indicated above, their position is very like that of the earliest Christians who also did not employ the cross in their symbology too often. Besides this, enormous quantities of evidences could be marshalled to show that the LDS position is highly respectful of the cross of Christ, and that they avoid it’s public display not out of shame but in order that it might not be dishonored by what the LDS perceive as an idolatrous practice of veneration.

I think Thomas Howard makes a good point somewhere to the effect that Christians who avoid the use of symbols do so out of just so much love and respect for God as those Christians who use such symbols liberally–the one set of Christians seeking to emphasize the transcedence of God and to honor His commandments forbidding graven images. The other Christians, seeking to emphasize His imminance and to bring into the present more forcefully His mighty works of yore.

 

[momathome]

flameburns623:

However you should note also that there is another thread on this topic which cites numerous references from LDS General Authorities who speak highly of the cross: they have a rather schizophrenic view of the matter. On the one hand they do not wish to give the cross as an icon too prominent a place in their symbology.
.

Can you tell me where this thread is? The mormon threads become so long it’s hard to follow, much less find a specific topic. Thanks.

Besides this, enormous quantities of evidences could be marshalled to show that the LDS position is highly respectful of the cross of Christ, and that they avoid it’s public display not out of shame but in order that it might not be dishonored by what the LDS perceive as an idolatrous practice of veneration.

I would disagree with the reasoning that it might be perceived as idolatrous practice of veneration. The swastika is not a vernerated symbol, but highly offensive. I’ve been counciled against use of the cross because it’s offensive, not out of respect.

Lds church leaders have counciled members to decorate their homes with church art, specifically pictures of Joseph Smith and the history of the lds church. The lds church also uses pictures of Christ in all church buildings. It’s specifically the cross, not anything other symbol that is forbidden. Church members use all sorts of symbols for art and jewelry, such as the liahona, the temple, the young womens flower, etc… I’d like to see the logic of banning the cross.

Thanks.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

This may be off topic but what’s the “liahona?”

 

[flameburns623]

momathome:

I would disagree with the reasoning that it might be perceived as idolatrous practice of veneration. The swastika is not a vernerated symbol, but highly offensive. I’ve been counciled against use of the cross because it’s offensive, not out of respect.

The swastika was highly venerated by those who served under the Third Reich. The cross, of course, is seen in many cultures not as a sign of redemption but of cultural imperialism. Jews, Hindus, Muslims often find it offensive.

Lds church leaders have counciled members to decorate their homes with church art, specifically pictures of Joseph Smith and the history of the lds church. The lds church also uses pictures of Christ in all church buildings. It’s specifically the cross, not anything other symbol that is forbidden. Church members use all sorts of symbols for art and jewelry, such as the liahona, the temple, the young womens flower, etc… I’d like to see the logic of banning the cross.

I’m not LDS. Perhaps someone who is will weigh in, though I think I’ve given the gist of the argument above, both in this post and in my prior post. The cross is not seen by LDS as shameful for them, and they write extensively about the Atonement and so forth; but they recognise the cross specifically as something which puts some groups of prospective proselytes off their oats. Since the LDS are highly focused upon good public relations as a foundation for church growth, I think I am not far from the mark in my speculations. And I emphasize again the long history of the cross as an item to be venerated. There is even a specific Holy Day of Obligation in Roman Catholicism where Catholics go forward to kiss and venerate the cross. This smacks of idolatry to Mormons.

Can you tell me where this thread is? The mormon threads become so long it’s hard to follow, much less find a specific topic. Thanks.

I’ll look the thread up.

 

[Steve_Andersen]

What do you do when a mormon tells you the cross is like a swatstika?

A good hardy chuckle seems appropriate

The swastika, the cross, and other basic geometric shapes have been used on and off for millennia by various cultures.

If it is misused it shouldn’t change the meaning forever

Christians have used the cross for a long time
It is on hospitals, churches, orphanages, and many other symbols of great and good works. Good, decent, and saintly people have lived under it and by it.

It was and still is also used on many national flags. If the Danes and the Swedes fought a war somewhere with the cross on their national flag that doesn’t mean that all the good things that were done under the sign of the cross are somehow invalid or diminished

If all the lds can see is the “great apostasy” when they look at a cross they are being very nearsighted

 

[Patchunky]

momathome:

Last night my husband told me because its symbolism it was offensive, like somebody wearing a swatstika. .

CHRISTOS VOSKRES!
VO ISTINU VOSKRES!

Actually, the swastika was a much revered symbol of good and a defense against evil that has been used for centuries by the various peoples of Central and Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

It was used in pre-Christian times and also in Christian times to decorate houses, out buildings, jewelry, clothing and Easter eggs.

It was the Nazi’s who took this symbol of good and turned it into something EVIL…

hope this helps…

FELDAMADT HRISTUS!

---

FALOBAN FELDAMADT!

 

[flameburns623]

Robert in SD:

This may be off topic but what’s the “liahona?”

A round device with a pointer at the top which functioned like a directional device. It operated by the power of God to point the user to where He would have them go. Mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

 

[flameburns623]

See the thread entitled “LDS View of The Passion” for the following and other quotes:
BJColburt:

I pointed out in another post that our Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley wrote a special message for Easter where he defined the view of the LDS Church. Asked why do you not use the cross as a symbol of your religion. He answered “No member of this Church must ever forget the terrible price paid by our Redeemer, who gave His life that all men might live___the agony of Gethsemane, the bitter mockery of His trial, the vicious crown of thorns tearing at His flesh, the blood cry of the mob before Pilate, the lonely burden of His heavy walk along the way to Calvary, the terrifying pain as great nails pierced His hands and feet, the fevered torture of His body as He hung that tragic day, the Son of God crying out, “Father forgive them; for they know not what they do”(Luke 23:34)
This was the cross, the instrument of His torture, the terrible device designed to destroy the Man of Peace, the evil recompense for His miraculous work of healing the sick, of causing the blind to see, of raising the dead. This was the cross on which He hung and died on Golgotha’s lonely summit.
We cannot forget that. We must never forget it, for here our Savior, our Redeemer, the Son of God, gave Himself, a vicarious sacrifice for each of us.”
BJ
This is the Easter message to the LDS members from the Prophet of our church. I hope it helps add to clarification of our belief in the Atonement.

 

[dcmac]

“What do you do when a mormon tells you the cross is like a swatstika?”

Laugh either out loud or in silent - depending on your audience. Then get a hold of yourself and recognize that it is: A) a source of folly etc. to non-believers as St. Paul attests, and; B) it is human nature to take symbolism to an extreme.

So, for the Hopi Indians here in the southwest the fylfot, a.k.a. the swastika, is a holy symbol and has been so since long before the advent of the German state, let alone the Nazi party. Would I use it for anything? No. But then I am neither Hopi Indian or a Nazi.

The same could be said for the cross. As a Catholic Christian, I would use the cross and would not discontinue to do so because of the errors, and even sins, of those who bore the cross as their charge when they did evil things. So, an LDS would not be expected to use the cross, for (and I mean no offense) they are not Christians in the proper, strictest sense of the word.

I would not take too much offense to your husbands comment, for as you attest, you are both LDS and he can not be expected as such to recognize the beauty of the cross… just as St. Paul tells us. Now, if he were a Christian and held the belief that the cross was a symbol akin to the swastika with the natural implication that Christians are like Nazis, well, then I would take offense and would not laugh at it all.

 

[Shibboleth]

Tell them that metal disks are like hubcaps.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Then you give that Mormon a verbal history of the ‘Crooked Cross’ or the Flyflot.

The swastika has been a symbol of Buddhism for over 600 years and is still worn on the robes of Japanese Buddhists monks, and a very large swastika is found on the floor of the Shorinji Temple in Japan. In Brighton, Massachusetts (a Boston neighborhood) the Shim Gum Do Buddhist Temple has a patch with a modified swastika which the Abbot wears on his robes.

There have been several variations of the swatiska, and it is just unfortunate that that particular design has been typecast by the German Nazi Party. The Latin Cross of Catholocism bears no particular resemblance but it is still just another cross design used by man through out his history.

My ignorance of Mormonism is showing, despite our current Morman Governor here in Massachusetts. Why would the Mormons be critical of the Christian cross?

 

[mormon_fool]

momathome:

I would disagree with the reasoning that it might be perceived as idolatrous practice of veneration. The swastika is not a vernerated symbol, but highly offensive. I’ve been counciled against use of the cross because it’s offensive, not out of respect.

Lds church leaders have counciled members to decorate their homes with church art, specifically pictures of Joseph Smith and the history of the lds church. The lds church also uses pictures of Christ in all church buildings. It’s specifically the cross, not anything other symbol that is forbidden. Church members use all sorts of symbols for art and jewelry, such as the liahona, the temple, the young womens flower, etc… I’d like to see the logic of banning the cross.

I think that relating the cross to the swastika is quite the over-reaction. I highly respect the cross as a symbol for Christ and his sacrifice. There is no comparison to me. The swastika is almost universally recognized as a symbol of evil and the cross as a symbol of good. This attitude of disrespecting other faith’s use of the cross is out of step with church literature.

There is no “ban” on cross pictures per say. Individuals can make their own decisions about them. Although other strongly opinionated members might take offense. In fact, the cross is officially used in one context: “our military chaplains use it on their uniforms for identification.” (from the article BJ cited.) I also find pictures of Jesus are more prominent in church buildings than are church history pictures, although there are pictures of temples (a place where we can–in some respects–acheive greater closeness with Jesus) and church history (events that portray Jesus’s dealings with some of his followers). There is also a well distributed picture of Jesus on the cross.

library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll?f=id$id=tchg-pix.nfo%3Ao%3A166$cid=tchg-pix.nfo$t=document-frame.htm$3.0$p=

I am just trying to balance out the range of mormon beliefs here and not denying that some mormons have aversions to other mormons “using” the cross in some contexts.

 

[mormon_fool]

Kevin Walker:

My ignorance of Mormonism is showing, despite our current Morman Governor here in Massachusetts. Why would the Mormons be critical of the Christian cross?

Mit Romney for '08

We are not critical of other Christian faiths using it as a symbol to help them to remember Christ. The cross only has very limited use in mormon iconography because we like to celebrate the positives that came out of the suffering-- like the ressurection and overcoming the effects of sin rather than the suffering itself. It is just an emphasis and not an attempt to ignore what Christ went through for all of us. The leaders of the mormon church advocate living Christ-like lives as a substitute symbol.

 

[BDawg]

I’m also a Mormon, and I have to agree with what fool and flame have said.

We should not be putting down other people for using this symbol, and really, most Protestants don’t use it in a way that should even make us slightly uncomfortable. Kneeling and kissing the cross, however, seem like idolatry to us, although I don’t think LDS discuss this much out of respect for people who practice this. Catholics will say that this isn’t really idolatry because nobody thinks the statue of Jesus on a crucifix is really Jesus. But then, pagans didn’t generally think of idols as really being gods, either. They did believe that the god could come down and animate the idol, though. I think that pretty much covers why we avoid it. Guilt by association, I guess.

One thing more, though. I believe the cross shaped like an “X” is a very ancient symbol used by the Jews to represent the Messiah. Some of the earliest Christians would anoint the forehead in an X shape during baptismal, and maybe other, rites. In Greek, X is the letter “chi,” which is the first letter in “Christos,” meaning “Christ”.

BDawg

 

[BJ_Colbert]

If my husband said anything like that I would have to say he has some larger issues and I might consider divorce(just kidding about divorce, I think), sorry but that is so far out of normal for a member of the LDS church to say something like that, it makes me nauseous to hear that kind of comparison. He certainly was not speaking for the LDS church, only his personal opinion.
BJ

Am I being harsh, if so, sorry in advance. I have gotten so in trouble with my off the cuff remarks I don’t mean to offend anyone.

 

[BDawg]

Along with what BJ said, I think many Mormons just don’t understand mainstream Christian symbology. For instance, one woman in my congregation once gave a talk in church saying that some people use the term “X-mas” because they are trying to take Christ out of Christmas and make it into a secular holiday. However, “X” is really the Greek “chi,” once again, which is short for “Christos.”

Fortunately, I was teaching early morning religion classes to the teenagers there, and the subject of symbolism came up, so I got to set them straight, at least.

BDawg

 

[catholic-rcia]

“There is even a specific Holy Day of Obligation in Roman Catholicism where Catholics go forward to kiss and venerate the cross. This smacks of idolatry to Mormons.”

And this would be Good Friday. Where we go to be with our Christ at his time of death. A day that I was given five years ago through baptism, a day I did not then fully understand. It is a day I cherish as I have been given many more days to cherish in this Apostolic faith.

“This smacks of idolatry to Mormons”

Are Mormons allowed to go to the graves of their loved ones?
Are they allowed to place a headstone upon it?
When they go to the grave of a loved one, a brother lost, a sister, a mother or a lover do they kneel and pray? Have they ever tenderly touched the grass? If you are a Morman and have done this than you have slightly embraced Good Friday and your own Cross in your own life.

When I go to the Cross on Good Friday, I have a very memorable time with Christ. I have lost loved ones in this life, there has been no greater wake up call for me than standing next to a mother who had died, a grandfather who had died, a brother who had died. Do you know what it is like to stand next to your father looking up at your mother at eight years old, a mother who had taken her life. Or standing next to your father, gazing upon your sixteen year old brother who the day before was running and laughing up life?

If you know how this feels than you will understand the veneration of the cross. Where idolatry takes second stage, iand n reality no stage at all. While I kneel and kiss the cross, I am being kissed by Christ my Savior. The only place that I would rather be than with my loved ones who left me behind is at the foot of the Cross.
I could sleep there forever. If I live to be 100 years old I can only hope that I can attended Good Friday at least 65 times, to make up for the 35 I lost to the world since my birth, a part of it contributed by Mormonism.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

What do you do when a Mormon tells you the cross is like a swastika?

Don’t take the bait. Unless you’re discussing topics related to the political and social history of mid-20th century Europe, the term “swastika,” like “nazi,” is a goading word used to bait a person into an emotional response. Not knowing your fried, I cannot say whether the comment was simply repeated from something taught to him/her, or was intended to be such a cutting remark. Since you two are friends, however, I would give the person the benefit of the doubt that he/she did not mean to injure with their analogy.

But even if your friend made the comparison in good faith, it appears to me to be a gross exageration of the point to be made - i.e. that the cross places improper emphasis on the mortal sufferings of Christ, which LDS members choose to de-emphasize (as I understand from other LDS posters to this thread).

On the topic I can only add that - IMHO - the decision to turn away from the cross as an icon for contemplation of the depth of God’s love for humanity is a regretable decision that will have a real and negative impact on personal spiritual formation.

Despite my disagreement with LDS doctrine, I want to offer thanks to all the LDS members on this thread for your thoughtful (name removed by moderator)ut.

Peace and Charity,