What do you do when a mormon tells you the cross is like a swatstika?

[BJ_Colbert]

“There is even a specific Holy Day of Obligation in Roman Catholicism where Catholics go forward to kiss and venerate the cross. This smacks of idolatry to Mormons.”

And this would be Good Friday. Where we go to be with our Christ at his time of death. A day that I was given five years ago through baptism, a day I did not then fully understand. It is a day I cherish as I have been given many more days to cherish in this Apostolic faith.

“This smacks of idolatry to Mormons”

Are Mormons allowed to go to the graves of their loved ones?
Are they allowed to place a headstone upon it?
When they go to the grave of a loved one, a brother lost, a sister, a mother or a lover do they kneel and pray? Have they ever tenderly touched the grass? If you are a Morman and have done this than you have slightly embraced Good Friday and your own Cross in your own life.

When I go to the Cross on Good Friday, I have a very memorable time with Christ. I have lost loved ones in this life, there has been no greater wake up call for me than standing next to a mother who had died, a grandfather who had died, a brother who had died. Do you know what it is like to stand next to your father looking up at your mother at eight years old, a mother who had taken her life. Or standing next to your father, gazing upon your sixteen year old brother who the day before was running and laughing up life?

If you know how this feels than you will understand the veneration of the cross. Where idolatry takes second stage, iand n reality no stage at all. While I kneel and kiss the cross, I am being kissed by Christ my Savior. The only place that I would rather be than with my loved ones who left me behind is at the foot of the Cross.
I could sleep there forever. If I live to be 100 years old I can only hope that I can attended Good Friday at least 65 times, to make up for the 35 I lost to the world since my birth, a part of it contributed by Mormonism.

I understand your feelings and my Catholic husband feels the same way, you expressed it very well. Thank you for your explanation of how Catholics feel about the Cross. Of course we feel the same, we just express it a little differently. The feelings of grief for the suffering and death upon the cross of our Savior or for any of our loved ones who die are the same as yours. Visiting their grave or giving any honor to the final resting place of their remains is a comfort to many, myself included. I have never kissed the grass or the headstone of a loved one, but have left flowers and stood and contemplated my memory of their lives. Missing their presence, but knowing they and I will meet again some day.
BJ

 

[tkdnick]

BDawg:

However, “X” is really the Greek “chi,” once again, which is short for “Christos.”

Really??? Didn’t know that! That’s pretty cool! However, you can’t honestly tell me that when people write X-mas that they are thinking of the Greek root of Christ.

I’m not necessarily saying that they are trying to take Christ out of Christmas either.

 

[MadelineLovesYa]

From what I’ve been tought in CCD and bible study, the cross was **not **used until the Romans made being a Christian legal, because it could get them arrested. Instead, a fish was used (<><) as a symbol. However, saying that the cross is like a swatstika seems silly to me. I mean, Jews have their Star of David. I’m sure other religions have symbols as well, I just don’t know what they are. So it’s more of a profession of faith than trying to insult someone. It’s not like wearing a cross is saying “Haha- I’m Christian, you’re not.”

 

[cestusdei]

Mom,
I would tell them racism is endemic to nazism and the LDS church is racist. Ergo…
That should shut them up.

 

[tkdnick]

Guys, check out the first post again. The person who made this comment is her husband! I think due dilligence and A LOT of sensitivity is necessary in this case.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

momathome:

My husband and I are both lds (although I have a great interest in the Catholic Church and attended my first mass on Easter Sunday - a topic for another post). I have a protestant background and feel that the use of a cross is appropriate for a Christian. This doesn’t go over very well in the lds church. Last night my husband told me because its symbolism it was offensive, like somebody wearing a swatstika. Well, I kinda flipped out at that comparison. Can anybody provide very early church documentation of the use of the cross? Most lds believe that the cross wasn’t used until maybe the time of the council of Nicea, which then gets into the great apostosy.

Thanks.

Agree, of course - the swastika is a form of cross.​

And look at 1 Corinthians 1. 21 following - of course the Cross is “offensive” - it was 1900 years ago. And before, and since.

It’s a very good sign that it is still found offensive: there is absolutely nothing dignified or pretty or nice about being crucified, stark naked, aching in every limb, exposed to insects and to mockery, dying extremely slowly (people could take three days to die - Jesus was lucky to be crucified when he was: He had only a few hours of it) - with no control over bladder or bowels. It was a horrible death - so of course the Cross is obscene. :banghead:

But that is what God was prepared to go through for our salvation: to give His own Son, to suffer that sort of obscene & clownish death. Even God cannot give more than Himself; what more can He give, when He has given even His own Self ? ##

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Kevin Walker:

Then you give that Mormon a verbal history of the ‘Crooked Cross’ or the Flyflot.

The swastika has been a symbol of Buddhism for over 600 years and is still worn on the robes of Japanese Buddhists monks, and a very large swastika is found on the floor of the Shorinji Temple in Japan. In Brighton, Massachusetts (a Boston neighborhood) the Shim Gum Do Buddhist Temple has a patch with a modified swastika which the Abbot wears on his robes.

There have been several variations of the swatiska, and it is just unfortunate that that particular design has been typecast by the German Nazi Party. The Latin Cross of Catholocism bears no particular resemblance but it is still just another cross design used by man through out his history.

My ignorance of Mormonism is showing, despite our current Morman Governor here in Massachusetts. Why would the Mormons be critical of the Christian cross?

The swastika is also (or was) a symbol for Navajo Indians (the Dine). There’s a building in Farmington, New Mexico, with a line of them going around as a decorative frieze. It’s quite an old building and I think the Navajo abandoned the symbol during/after WWII.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

What do you do when a mormon tells you the cross is like a swatstika?

Try not to drool when I laugh? Seriously, if an LDS came to my house, I think he would flee: I have a growning collection of crucifixes and cross, all massed together on two walls.

“We adore thee, O Christ, because by thy Cross…” A beautiful prayer.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Yes it is all of that, but with Christ death for each of us it really is so much more intense. As we process to the Cross before Easter Sunday we face our own sin head on. We realize that it is this sin that crucified our Savior. It places us on a level of humility that is only found in a relationship with the suffering Christ. When you know what sin has done, what sin does in your own life, in the lives of those you love and realize that we all play a part in it, it makes the Sacrifice for us so real and personal. If we hide from our fallen nature and do not recognize it out of hidden shame we cannot come to the cross, nor do we want to be around it. It is much easier to consider ourselves a bit better than the next, to see ourselves in a good light. In this we cannot capture the necessity to be forgiven nor the immensity in forgiving others. I did not think of myself as the prodigal son before I became Catholic, that role was for others not me. But now that I have seen and met the prodigal in me I have seen and met Gods love in a whole new light. I have come to rely on His embrace more. I have come to see that my earlier pursuits in life were more self directed. My focus on the cross, the Passion of Christ has grown into something I could have never before seen.

It is as if this great guy has been ripped open and exposed for who he really is. And I give thanks to God for giving me the courage and the right place to be humbled in such a way. By finding my fallen self I have found Christ. I beleive I have come to know, I am coming to know myself much less and Christ much more. I guess this would be what Catholics talk about when they speak of dying to self to be risen in Christ.

I love the whole Mass, the words spoken have seared themselves into my soul such as” Lord I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word I shall be healed”, what power is in those simple words?

He always takes us as we are as long as we turn to Him. He loves us just as much no matter what state we find ourselves in. He brings us home even though we are sinners. Knowing this can lighten the heaviest of burdens and guilt and transform a prodigal son into a son of hope, where turning to Christ brings about a change of heart. This happens for many who come to embrace the Cross, seeking understanding in it.

“Behold, Behold, the wood of the cross in which was hung our salvation, oh come let us adore him”

What We Behold On The Cross

*by Augustine of Hippo (c. 354-430) *

“As they were , so we too gaze on his wounds as he hangs. We see his blood as he dies. We see the price offered by the redeemer; touch the scars of his resurrection. He bows his head, as if to kiss you. His heart is made bare open, as it were, in love to you. His arms are extended that he may embrace you. His whole body is displayed for your redemption. Ponder how great these things are. Let all this be rightly weighed in your mind: as he was once fixed to the cross in every part of his body for you, so he may now be fixed in every part of your soul.”

 

[catholic-rcia]

Dear BJ

You wrote

“Missing their presence, but knowing they and I will meet again some day.”

As a Trinity believing Christian I want to say a few things. I once had a grandfather who I loved very much. He was one of the few who would place his arm around me and walk with me. He loved me very much and I him. When I got into trouble with others he would always tell me how special I was and that he knew that I would be ok. When he died I wanted to die as well.

This man had no formal religion in his life, he was never baptized nor did he read the Scriptures, but in all that that he lacked he was not lacking in spirit. If he is not heaven when I get there the spirit that he shared with me will be, and that will be enough for me.

I have had a few special people like him in my life through the years. But now when I think of those people I think of Christ more. For it was the spirit of Christ in them that I was blessed to receive. As a Catholic it is easy to want and to desire to be with my loved ones in heaven. But it is in and through Christ that I will have access to them. Here we tend to point to ourselves and to others we love as something to be worshiped. But it is in the Saints wisdom that they have learned to point to God in such matters rejecting any glory that may come their way. And it is better this way. The good that we see in each other, the good that we pass on to others is the goodness of God. It is much more fulfilling to know this and to be a servant to it rather than the one who receives it without knowing from where it comes and exactly what it is. You can start to believe that it comes from your own goodness, as if it was from you. In meeting Christ Jesus you will in heaven be meeting those you loved here on earth, for it was and is Christ in them that you and I have loved. And we have been gifted this kind of love from our Creator through the Son, that which has been loved for all eternity by the Father. . Will we be unique in heaven, our are we mere puppets of God? I do not know, but just knowing that it is Gods Spirit in you that gives you your life is pretty special and it is unique. It’s like you come to realize that once you were nothing and now you are something.

Thanks be to God always, thanks for His Son, thanks for the Cross

 

[momathome]

Thank you for all the responses, some being more approprite than others.

I especially appreciate catholic-rcia because your posts really speak to my heart. I have gained a lot from reading them.

Whether it’s this topic or another I think sometimes the lds on the forum put on the ‘public relations’ face instead of being honest about how many lds react in private or how we talk in our meetings. That’s part of my frustration. When you’re inactive or questioning we get these ‘gentle’ answers, but once you have a testimony or are active and church members feel comfortable around you, then it’s like a different side of the lds gospel comes out, and I’m not very comfortable with it.

 

[BDawg]

momathome:

Whether it’s this topic or another I think sometimes the lds on the forum put on the ‘public relations’ face instead of being honest about how many lds react in private or how we talk in our meetings. That’s part of my frustration. When you’re inactive or questioning we get these ‘gentle’ answers, but once you have a testimony or are active and church members feel comfortable around you, then it’s like a different side of the lds gospel comes out, and I’m not very comfortable with it.

Hi mom (I had to say it!),

The problem is that people, in general, are ignorant and prejudiced. And I’m not excluding myself from this characterization. You will never find an LDS general authority saying that using the cross is like using the swastika, but you very well might hear Joe Blow in your Sunday School class (or your husband) say such a thing. Why is that? I think it is because people like to rationalize their own beliefs and practices in such a way that they can “slam dunk” the competition. If we don’t use the cross, it must be because everyone who does is actually venerating a pagan fertility symbol! We don’t believe in the mainstream Trinity doctrine, so what do Mormons do? We make believe that the mainstream Trinity doctrine is really Modalism (i.e., the belief that the F, S, and HG are all the same person, appearing in different “modes”). We believe that faith and works go hand in hand, so we pretend all the Protestants are anti-nomians (i.e., people who believe you can sin all you want after you confess Jesus). We tell stories (culled from Seventh Day Adventist anti-Catholic literature) about the Pope’s tiara having a Latin phrase whose letter/numerals add up to “666” engraved on it and about “Pope Joan.” (Both of those accusations are utter garbage, by the way, and contradict what Joseph Smith himself said about Catholicism.)

We live in this pretend world of prejudice, frankly, because we are lazy. It takes a helluva lot of work to try to understand others on their own terms, sorting out how they might use terms differently than we do, and figuring out all the nuances of belief. It’s so much easier to avoid such mind-expanding activities altogether and create a little fantasy world where we are obviously right and they are obviously wrong.

However, I think that if we never ask questions about what others believe, and why they believe it, trying to understand in all charity, we will never really understand our own faith. Why? Because we will never ask ourselves hard questions about whether our understandings square with the scriptures. Therefore, we will never get to know the nuances in our own theology.

Anyway, it’s not “another side of the Gospel” you have been finding. When you get to know people, sometimes their prejudices start coming out. And it’s no different in other churches. Just look at this forum. There are all kinds of people here who say nasty things about Mormons (we’re brainwashed robots, etc.) They criticize us based on misconceptions about our doctrine (some of which might be traced to ignorant LDS members). Luckily, there are actually a few Catholics on the forum who are embarassed about this tendency, and they try to correct their cohorts.

If you are embarassed, too, then I suggest that you stand up for your Christian brothers and sisters when these things come out. Usually when people are confronted (in as nice a way as possible) with their prejudices, they can see it and alter their way of thinking. For instance, I teach Gospel Doctrine class, and when the subject of what others believe about the Trinity comes up, I make SURE to give a good explanation of what the doctrine IS and ISN’T. Sometimes I can see visible relief on people’s faces. Some of them have these prejudiced ideas, because they picked them up from their culture, but they really don’t like thinking of others as “them stupid folks.”

BDawg

 

[BDawg]

tkdnick:

Really??? Didn’t know that! That’s pretty cool! However, you can’t honestly tell me that when people write X-mas that they are thinking of the Greek root of Christ.

I’m not necessarily saying that they are trying to take Christ out of Christmas either.

I don’t know what everyone thinks when they use it. I’m just telling you how I read that the symbol originated.

BDawg

 

[Subrosa]

BDawg:

I’m also a Mormon, and I have to agree with what fool and flame have said.

We should not be putting down other people for using this symbol, and really, most Protestants don’t use it in a way that should even make us slightly uncomfortable. Kneeling and kissing the cross, however, seem like idolatry to us, although I don’t think LDS discuss this much out of respect for people who practice this. Catholics will say that this isn’t really idolatry because nobody thinks the statue of Jesus on a crucifix is really Jesus. But then, pagans didn’t generally think of idols as really being gods, either. They did believe that the god could come down and animate the idol, though. I think that pretty much covers why we avoid it. Guilt by association, I guess.

BDawg

Good day, BDawg -

I read your post, above, and felt that I needed to answer it. It seems to me that a clerification of the catholic use of imagery is needed. As such, I apologise ahead of time for such a long posting. I need to put it several postings. Here goes! http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

The basis of the Catholic position on imagery

in accordance with scripture.

Christ’s church has justified the use of certain artistic images in veneration of The Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1, 1:14). The use of holy imagery dates from the earliest times of Christianity and in accordance with the Jewish tradition, as evidenced by the Catacombs of Rome, where it is in abundance. The issue was confronted in 787 A.D. at the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea when the iconoclasts challenged her position. Following are passages from scripture that justify the use of imagery for veneration, not worship. It is important to realize that there are no images representing the Father, or any spiritual being in any Catholic institution. All images in the Holy Catholic Church are of physical or manifested beings that appeared on Earth.

All of the Quotes and Scriptural passages are taken from the New American Bible, copy and paste fashion, including the references. The quote from the Catechism is likewise taken. My own comments are preceeded with the word “Comment”.

First, the Catholic position concerning use of holy images, taken from page 516 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Following it will be the scriptural justifications.

**IV. “YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FOR YOURSELF A GRAVEN IMAGE . . .” **

**2129 **The divine injunction included the prohibition of every representation of God by the hand of man. *Deuteronomy *explains: "Since you saw no form on the day that the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire, beware lest you act corruptly by making a graven image for yourselves, in the form of any figure. . . . "66 It is the absolutely transcendent God who revealed himself to Israel. “He is the all,” but at the same time "he is greater than all his works."67 He is "the author of beauty."68

**2130 **Nevertheless, already in the Old Testament, God ordained or permitted the making of images that pointed symbolically toward salvation by the incarnate Word: so it was with the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, and the cherubim.69

**2131 **Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new “economy” of images.

**2132 **The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, “the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype,” and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a “respectful veneration,” not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71

 

[Subrosa]

1. Justification for the Image of the Crucifixion.

****Numbers, Chapter 21

4 From Mount Hor they set out on the Red Sea road, to by-pass the land of Edom. But with their patience worn out by the journey,

5 3 the people complained against God and Moses, “Why have you brought us up from Egypt to die in this desert, where there is no food or water? We are disgusted with this wretched food!”

6 4 In punishment the LORD sent among the people saraph serpents, which bit the people so that many of them died.

7 Then the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned in complaining against the LORD and you. Pray the LORD to take the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people,

8 5 and the LORD said to Moses, “Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.”

9 6 Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered.

[6] Saraph: the Hebrew name for a certain species of venomous snakes; the word probably signifies “the fiery one,” these snakes being so called from the burning effect of their poisonous bite.

[8] If anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover: “and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that those who believe in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting” (John 3:14-15).

John, Chapter 3

1. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit.
2. Do not be amazed that I told you, ‘You must be born from above.’

8 The wind 4 blows where it wills, and you can hear the sound it makes, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes; so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, “How can this happen?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, "You are the teacher of Israel and you do not understand this?

11 Amen, amen, I say to you, we speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen, but you people do not accept our testimony.

12If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

13 No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.

14 And just as Moses lifted up 5 the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

15 6 so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life."

[5] Lifted up: in Numbers 21:9 Moses simply “mounted” a serpent upon a pole. John here substitutes a verb implying glorification. Jesus, exalted to glory at his cross and resurrection, represents healing for all.

Comment: Notice that in Numbers, verse 7, that the people asked Moses to intercede on their behalf. The present day church practices this very thing when praying to venerated saints. Then, in Numbers, verses 8 and 9, God instructs Moses to make a saraph and mount it on a pole". Notice also the reason God gives to Moses to mount the serpent. It is, " if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover." SALVATION from death is the reason (see Numbers, verse 6).

But what does this have to do with the image of the Crucifixion of Jesus? Ask the question, “Why did Jesus die on the cross?” The answer, again, is SALVATION from death.

See Matthew26:27-28. “27 Then He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of the many for the forgiveness of sins.’” See verse 15 of John, above.

The mounting of the serpent was a physical event done by Moses as instructed by God, a physical sign of salvation. Jesus instructs us to do the same in verse 14 of John, “so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”.But is it the image thatsaves, or some thing else? To continue…

 

[Subrosa]

The Book of Wisdom, Chapter 16

5 For when the dire venom of beasts came upon them and they were dying from the bite of crooked serpents, your anger endured not to the end.

6 2 But as a warning, for a short time they were terrorized, though they had a sign of salvation, to remind them of the precept of your law.

7 For he who turned toward it was saved, not by what he saw, but by you, the savior of all.

8 And by this also you convinced our foes that you are he who delivers from all evil.

9 For the bites of locusts and of flies slew them, and no remedy was found to save their lives because they deserved to be punished by such means;

10But not even the fangs of poisonous reptiles overcame your sons, for your mercy brought the antidote to heal them.

11 For as a reminder of your injunctions, they were stung, and swiftly they were saved, Lest they should fall into deep forgetfulness and become unresponsive to your beneficence.

12 For indeed, neither herb nor application cured them, but your all-healing word, O LORD!

[2] Sign: the brazen serpent; cf Numbers 21:9.

Comment: This passage relates the events that occurred in Numbers 21. The reference connects verse 6 “the sign of salvation” directly to the serpent erected by Moses. Verse 7 states what happened and by whom. Verses 7 and 12 make it plain that this serpent was only a sign and that it is both God and the Word of God that heal.

**Justification of the general use of imagery.

**

Exodus, Chapter 25

This is what the LORD then said to Moses:

2 "Tell the Israelites to take up a collection for me. From every man you shall accept the contribution that his heart prompts him to give me.

3 These are the contributions you shall accept from them: gold, silver and bronze;

4 violet, purple and scarlet yarn; fine linen and goat hair;

5 1 rams’ skins dyed red, and tahash skins; acacia wood;

6 oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense;

7 onyx stones and other gems for mounting on the ephod and the breastpiece.

8 "They shall make a sanctuary for me, that I may dwell in their midst.

9 This Dwelling and all its furnishings you shall make exactly according to the pattern that I will now show you.

10 "You shall make an ark of acacia wood, two and a half cubits long, one and a half cubits wide, and one and a half cubits high.

11 Plate it inside and outside with pure gold, and put a molding of gold around the top of it.

12 Cast four gold rings and fasten them on the four supports of the ark, two rings on one side and two on the opposite side.

13 Then make poles of acacia wood and plate them with gold.

14 These poles you are to put through the rings on the sides of the ark, for carrying it;

15 they must remain in the rings of the ark and never be withdrawn.

16 In the ark you are to put the commandments which I will give you.

17 2 "You shall then make a propitiatory of pure gold, two cubits and a half long, and one and a half cubits wide.

18 3 Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory,

19 fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end.

 

[Subrosa]

20 The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory.

21 This propitiatory you shall then place on top of the ark. In the ark itself you are to put the commandments which I will give you.

22 There I will meet you and there, from above the propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the ark of the commandments, I will tell you all the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites.

2 [17] Propitiatory: this traditional rendering of the Hebrew term, which may mean merely “cover,” is derived from its connection with the ceremony of the Day of Atonement whereby God was rendered “propitious.” Cf Lev 16:14, 16.

3 [18-20] Cherubim: probably in the form of human-headed winged lions. The cherubim over the ark formed the throne for the invisible Lord. Cf Psalm 80:2. For a more detailed description of the somewhat different cherubim in the temple of Solomon, see 1 Kings 6:23-28; 2 Chron 3:10-13.

Comment: God instructed Moses on the use of imagery to venerate Him. See reference 2. These are the connecting references -

Psalm 80:2. Shepherd of Israel, listen, guide of the flock of Joseph! From your throne upon the cherubim reveal yourself.

1 Kings 6

11 2 This word of the LORD came to Solomon:

12 "As to this temple you are building - if you observe my statutes, carry out my ordinances, keep and obey all my commands, I will fulfill toward you the promise I made to your father David.

13 I will dwell in the midst of the Israelites and will not forsake my people Israel."

14 When Solomon finished building the temple,

15 its walls were lined from floor to ceiling beams with cedar paneling, and its floor was laid with fir planking.

16 At the rear of the temple a space of twenty cubits was set off by cedar partitions from the floor to the rafters, enclosing the sanctuary, the holy of holies.

17 The nave, or part of the temple in front of the sanctuary, was forty cubits long.

18 The cedar in the interior of the temple was carved in the form of gourds and open flowers; all was of cedar, and no stone was to be seen.

19 3 In the innermost part of the temple was located the sanctuary to house the ark of the LORD’S covenant,

20 4 twenty cubits long, twenty wide, and twenty high.

21 Solomon overlaid the interior of the temple with pure gold. He made in front of the sanctuary a cedar altar, overlaid it with gold, and looped it with golden chains.

22 The entire temple was overlaid with gold so that it was completely covered with it; the whole altar before the sanctuary was also overlaid with gold.

23 In the sanctuary were two cherubim, each ten cubits high, made of olive wood.

24 Each wing of a cherub measured five cubits so that the space from wing tip to wing tip of each was ten cubits.

25 The cherubim were identical in size and shape,

26 and each was exactly ten cubits high.

27 The cherubim were placed in the inmost part of the temple, with their wings spread wide, so that one wing of each cherub touched a side wall while the other wing, pointing toward the middle of the room, touched the corresponding wing of the second cherub.

28 The cherubim, too, were overlaid with gold.

29 The walls on all sides of both the inner and the outer rooms had carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers.

30 The floor of both the inner and the outer rooms was overlaid with gold.

31 At the entrance of the sanctuary, doors of olive wood were made; the doorframes had beveled posts.

32 The two doors were of olive wood, with carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers. The doors were overlaid with gold, which was also molded to the cherubim and the palm trees.

 

[BDawg]

Hi Subrosa,

We don’t have any problem with using images, statues, symbolic objects, etc. You will just never find us venerating them in such a way that they used as a sort of proxy object in worship. Like I said before, I realize that you don’t actually think these objects are Jesus, a saint, or whatever. However, the ancient pagans didn’t generally think some hunk of carved rock or shaped metal was a god, either. I just don’t see the essential difference. Anyway, the topic was why Mormons generally are uncomfortable using a crucifix, and there you have it.

BDawg

 

[Subrosa]

33 The same was done at the entrance to the nave, where the doorposts of olive wood were rectangular.

34 The two doors were of fir wood; each door was banded by a metal strap, front and back,

35 and had carved cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers, over which gold was evenly applied.

36 The inner court was walled off by means of three courses of hewn stones and one course of cedar beams.

2 [11-13] The word of the LORD . . . my people Israel: the oracle, which came as a climax at the completion of the work, was an expression of God’s acceptance and approval. Nevertheless the fulfillment of God’s promises to David and his royal descendants will depend on their observance of his ordinances and commands.

3 [19] The innermost part of the temple: the sanctuary or holy of holies reserved exclusively for the Lord. Here through his presence he dwelt as on a throne between the cherubim above the ark of the covenant ( 1 Kings 6:23-28; 2 Chron 3:10-13). See note on Exodus 25:18-20.

4 [20] Twenty (cubits) high: it is usually supposed that the holy of holies was of this height because it had a raised floor, five cubits above the floor level of the nave, rather than a dropped ceiling. The building was twenty-five cubits high ( 1 Kings 6:2) according to the reading here followed.

Comment: 1 Kings 7&8 can be added to these passages. These chapters depict the completion of the temple with all of its ornamentation, including images of cattle. This is interesting because it was the image of a golden calf which infuriated Moses as he came down from the mountain after receiving the Ten Commandments from God. The people were worshiping this graven image. The images of cattle in the Temple are meant to glorify God.

On completion of the temple, Solomon said,

1 Kings 8

17 When my father David wished to build a temple to the honor of the LORD, the God of Israel,

18 the LORD said to him, 'In wishing to build a temple to my honor, you do well.

19 It will not be you, however, who will build the temple; but the son who will spring from you, he shall build the temple to my honor.’

Comment:The use of imagery throughout the Bible has indeed honored God, and he is pleased with it. The temple of God is ornate and beautiful. It is just to make use of beauty to exalt God be cause He is its author, its “original source”.

 

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Wisdom Chapter 13

1 For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing him who is, and from studying the works did not discern the artisan;

2 2 But either fire, or wind, or the swift air, or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water, or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods.

3 Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original source of beauty fashioned them.

Concerning imagery in the new age, refer to passage 2131 of the Catechism.

The use of imagery in the Catholic Church is historical and in accordance with the wishes of God. Jesus tells us to do so as well. All of the icons of the church are simply reminders of those who came before us. This includes Jesus Himself, as well as all the saints who are special in the eyes of God. The use of images has withstood the test of time and was sanctioned in 787 A.D. at the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea. It is fully justified.

To quote Catholic Father Robert Auman:

Praying to images of Mary & the Saints and having icons of Christ or the cross in the sanctuary that members kiss, bow before and pray to. I know of no
Catholics who pray to images of Mary & the Saints & of Christ and the cross. If
they do, they are acting contrary to Catholic teaching and practice. The
Catholic Church teaches us to pray to the Persons represented by the images and
icons, which help us think about those Persons and imitate their virtues in our
lives. As to the kissing and the bowing, every one uses these gestures as signs
of love, friendship and reverence. In offering those gestures to the images or
icons we Catholics offer them to the Persons represented by the images and
icons. Likewise when we salute the American flag and kiss it, we are not
offering our respect and kisses to a piece of cloth, but to the country and the
principles for which it stands. When a person kisses the picture of a loved one,
the kiss is intended for the loved one and not for the picture."

Whew! Man! That’s allota stuff!
This is actually something I wrote earlier. I have to deal with Jehovah’s Witnesses around here. They have a view similar to LDS (I assume) concerning the use of imagery. Sorry it’s so long.

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