What do you do when a mormon tells you the cross is like a swatstika?

[Subrosa]

BDawg:

Hi Subrosa,

We don’t have any problem with using images, statues, symbolic objects, etc. You will just never find us venerating them in such a way that they used as a sort of proxy object in worship. Like I said before, I realize that you don’t actually think these objects are Jesus, a saint, or whatever. However, the ancient pagans didn’t generally think some hunk of carved rock or shaped metal was a god, either. I just don’t see the essential difference. Anyway, the topic was why Mormons generally are uncomfortable using a crucifix, and there you have it.

BDawg

I see you answered before I was done. I was having a tough time fitting it.

You say you don’t have a problem with images. Thanks for letting me know that, The JW’s I deal with are hard core against it.

Gotta go now. I have a test to take.

God bless,
Subrosa

 

[Subrosa]

BDawg:

Hi Subrosa,

Anyway, the topic was why Mormons generally are uncomfortable using a crucifix, and there you have it.

BDawg

Please read the section 1 entitled “Justification of the image of the Crucifix” You may find it interesting.

Subrosa

 

[BDawg]

Subrosa:

Please read the section 1 entitled “Justification of the image of the Crucifix” You may find it interesting.

Subrosa

Hi Sub,

I did read it, but I don’t quite buy it. The Israelites were just commanded to look at the bronze serpent. I don’t see what that has to do with using it as a “worship aid.”

B

 

[Subrosa]

BDawg:

Hi Sub,

I did read it, but I don’t quite buy it. The Israelites were just commanded to look at the bronze serpent. I don’t see what that has to do with using it as a “worship aid.”

B

the catholic “take” on this is that it is a preconfiguration of the crucifixion.

See how Christ says “And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.” , He’s telling us to do the same thing as Moses to get the same results: Salvation.

So, put it all together. God took a tortuous thing, the serpent, and had Moses raise it, thus making it an instrument of salvation…

"the LORD said to Moses, "Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover.

Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered."

So… when Jesus instructs us to do the same thing to him, the similar action is to take a tortuous instrument and raise it, - like Moses did to the serpent - and make it an instrument of salvation – the crucifix.

Get it?
Subrosa

 

[BDawg]

Subrosa:

Get it?

I think so, but it just seems like an awfully long stretch. Jesus said that the serpent incident was a type prefiguring what WOULD happen to Him. He never commanded anyone to re-enact it by making a statue depicting that real-life event and then using it to help them visualize Christ when they pray.

Even in the Old Testament Temple, they had statues, including the bronze serpent, but when people started venerating the serpent, Josiah had it removed. Similarly, there were statues of cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, which was in the Holy of Holies, and people actually prayed toward the Holy of Holies (although they couldn’t see inside). But what was in the middle of the Ark? The Mercy Seat, which was EMPTY, because God was thought to come down and actually sit there. Again, where God is concerned, there should be no “visualization aids,” because God is a real person who can and does “talk back” when people pray to Him.

BDawg

 

[BJ_Colbert]

I think it all boils down to what you have been taught. As I said earlier, I can stand and contemplate my feelings at a grave, or in front of a magnificent statue of Christ(such as we have at the Temple visitor’s center) and the feelings I have are of reverence and respect or pain at the thought of Christ’s suffering for my sins.
I have been taught respect and honor, but the way we show our feelings of respect and honor are different than the Catholic way of showing respect. Because of my teachings, I personally do not feel comfortable kissing an inanimate object of any kind. I do not think it is bad for someone who has been taught that form of worship to show his feelings in that manner. I don’t even think of it at all, it seems normal to me and just a difference in how we express feelings in our religion. Neither seems bad to me, just a difference in the expression. When I attend my husband’s mass, I am uncomfortable with holding hands with strangers during the Our Father, and then turning and shaking hands and saying"God be with you".
At our church we gather with our friends in the foyer after church and visit and we socialize with them during the month. Many of our church members have close friendships ongoing from church. In the Catholic church, even though we have been going every Sunday for 6 years to the same Parish. We never see the same people and the shaking hands(to me) seems just a symbol of friendship that never materializes. I know I have been told in other threads that the Catholic church is strictly for worship and the solitude adds to the religious feeling and that I should never expect to meet a friend at church. One kind Catholic pointed out that I must be high maintenance to expect to make friends at church, but I have been taught a different way, and there again, there is nothing wrong with wanting solitude in worship. Kind of like trying to watch a football game with a lot of friends around trying to take your attention I suppose. We just have different ways of expressing the same veneration for Christ. Sorry to have rambled on.
BJ

 

[BJ_Colbert]

I think it all boils down to what you have been taught. As I said earlier, I can stand and contemplate my feelings at a grave, or in front of a magnificent statue of Christ(such as we have at the Temple visitor’s center) and the feelings I have are of reverence and respect or pain at the thought of Christ’s suffering for my sins.
I have been taught respect and honor, but the way we show our feelings of respect and honor are different than the Catholic way of showing respect. Because of my teachings, I personally do not feel comfortable kissing an inanimate object of any kind. I do not think it is bad for someone who has been taught that form of worship to show his feelings in that manner. I don’t even think of it at all, it seems normal to me and just a difference in how we express feelings in our religion. Neither seems bad to me, just a difference in the expression. When I attend my husband’s mass, I am uncomfortable with holding hands with strangers during the Our Father, and then turning and shaking hands and saying"God be with you".
At our church we gather with our friends in the foyer after church and visit and we socialize with them during the month. Many of our church members have close friendships ongoing from church. In the Catholic church, even though we have been going every Sunday for 6 years to the same Parish. We never see the same people and the shaking hands(to me) seems just a symbol of friendship that never materializes. I know I have been told in other threads that the Catholic church is strictly for worship and the solitude adds to the religious feeling and that I should never expect to meet a friend at church. One kind Catholic pointed out that I must be high maintenance to expect to make friends at church, but I have been taught a different way, and there again, there is nothing wrong with wanting solitude in worship. Kind of like trying to watch a football game with a lot of friends around trying to take your attention I suppose. We just have different ways of expressing the same veneration for Christ. Sorry to have rambled on.
BJ

 

[_Joshua]

momathome:

My husband and I are both lds (although I have a great interest in the Catholic Church and attended my first mass on Easter Sunday - a topic for another post). I have a protestant background and feel that the use of a cross is appropriate for a Christian. This doesn’t go over very well in the lds church. Last night my husband told me because its symbolism it was offensive, like somebody wearing a swatstika. Well, I kinda flipped out at that comparison. Can anybody provide very early church documentation of the use of the cross? Most lds believe that the cross wasn’t used until maybe the time of the council of Nicea, which then gets into the great apostosy.

Thanks.

What you do is tell them to go get an eye test !

 

[Shibboleth]

BDawg:

. Again, where God is concerned, there should be no “visualization aids,” because God is a real person who can and does “talk back” when people pray to Him.

How is an audio aid any different than a visual aid?

Both are used to convey a message. How is a spoken symbol of guttural noises formed by the mouth any different than a visual symbol formed by the movements of a hand? In a sense a Bible is a visual aid and it seems one that is directly inspired by God to be created. My Bible is marked with a string of beads with gold, I hold it when I pray at times, I look to it for answers. Why can’t an illiterate person look to a stain glass window portraying the Crucifixion of a Cross for their knowledge?

I can certainly understand why a person might be uncomfortable with some of the visual aids but Catholics are not practicing idolatry.

 

[jack_johns]

I have never heard a mormon or a member of another faoith in all my life compare the cross to the swastika. now to explain about the cross with a little analogy i would say first that the mormon church isn’t anti cross they just don’t wear it like jewlry. there is plenty of paintings that show Jesus on the cross. If your mother died from a gun shot wound how would you like to remember her by. would you have a picture of her or would you have a picture of the gun that killed her. thats about it. they’re not anti cross just very pro savior of all man kind

 

[Catholic_Dude]

First of all I saw that picture in post #14 of Jesus on the Cross, but I didnt see a slit in His side. Maybe it was the angle of the picture that didnt show it. Anyway, what is the LDS teaching on this important wound?

What do you do when a mormon tells you the cross is like a swastica?

You tell them here is the difference between the swastica and Cross:
Jesus:
John 11:

49…[The] high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all; 50 you do not understand that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation should not perish.”

Hitler:
Nhoj 11:

49 …[The] high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all; 50 you do not understand that it is expedient for you should die that one man [live] for the people, and that the whole nation should perish.”

 

[BDawg]

Catholic Dude:

First of all I saw that picture in post #14 of Jesus on the Cross, but I didnt see a slit in His side. Maybe it was the angle of the picture that didnt show it. Anyway, what is the LDS teaching on this important wound?

Huh? We teach that it happened just like the Bible says.

BDawg

 

[catholic-rcia]

Catholicdude wrote on another post that is similar to this one:

The garden wasn’t the place where Christ fulfilled His mission; it was in that area where Christ asked if the mission was to even happen. Something to the effect of “If it is possible let this cup pass by…” indicating that the real work was yet to come, and only IF the Father willed it.

And this is why Theology and Church Tradition is so important to learn, to sear it into your heart and soul.

In the Garden he was preparing to take on the sins of the world , to take them to the Cross, to die with them and in him.

In the Garden he allowed himself to feel the human pain of being afraid, he felt everyone of our fears. After he allowed himself to absorb this for us, so that he could relate to each of us on a personal level in our own pain he rose and he was ready to continue.

He is an awesome God. Can you not see why the devil tries to lesson the power of the Cross? The power of the Mass? So many times I have heard Mormons say “we focus on the resurrection and not on the death of Jesus” But to be Christian you must know how important it is to first focus on the death, on the Passion, in order to fully understand the Resurrection. You have to go to the cross, you have to embrace the Cross, you have to embrace the suffering Christ. It is not enough to say that you do, you need to live the Passion in your own life, breath it in your life. Easter Sunday, the resurrection is the most glorious event in Human history. There is no religion on earth that understands the Passion of Christ, Easter Sunday more than the Catholic religion.

“Through the Cross, Jesus says you can love it all, even the enemy. There is no scapegoating. Everything, everyone belongs. There is only the broken and suffering Body of Christ eternally crucified, eternally resurrected: the human eternally crucified, eternally resurrected. What faith and surrender and courage it takes to hold the Cross and the Resurrection simultaneously, to let both simultaneously be true in you, in your body, in your marriage, in your children, in your neighborhood, in the Church.” By Richard Rohr, O.F.M.

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**Read this **

www.http://catholic-rcia.com/pages/Why_suffering.html

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[momathome]

jack johns:

I have never heard a mormon or a member of another faoith in all my life compare the cross to the swastika. now to explain about the cross with a little analogy i would say first that the mormon church isn’t anti cross they just don’t wear it like jewlry. there is plenty of paintings that show Jesus on the cross. If your mother died from a gun shot wound how would you like to remember her by. would you have a picture of her or would you have a picture of the gun that killed her. thats about it. they’re not anti cross just very pro savior of all man kind

I’ve heard this ‘analogy’ many times in the lds church. It’s something one learns, and then regurgitates it without much thought, a common practice in the lds church.

Lds do not only avoid use of the cross as jewelry, but would be truly ashamed to be seen wearing one. It’s not used as a symbol in the lds like say the beehive (a symbol of industry and self reliance). No, it’s not banned from paintings, but you will never find it used alone as a symbol of what Christ did for us. I believe this unfortunately leads to forgetting our dependence on the cross, and leads to the striving for godhood out of our own merits.

 

[searcher]

My wife and adult daughters like those little banners, flags (whatever they’re called) to put outside in the front of the house. Anyway our oldest daughter was given one for Easter last year that was quite nice. It had Easter lilies and a small gold-colored cross in the corner. She is not active in the LDS Church, yet she felt like she had to apologize to us for displaying the banner. We assured her there was no need and were saddened that she felt that she needed to. This year our daughter and her husband sold their home and moved to an apartment so they could go to graduate school. Anyway she gave all her flags to her mother including the Easter one which my wife displayed this year. I teased her that she had better take that down before someone from the Church saw it. She was not amused. Perhaps this is true in all churches, but seems especially true among the LDS, that sometimes practices are confused with principles. The flag will stay and be used again as will our surety that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins.

 

[Subrosa]

momathome:

My husband and I are both lds (although I have a great interest in the Catholic Church and attended my first mass on Easter Sunday - a topic for another post). I have a protestant background and feel that the use of a cross is appropriate for a Christian. This doesn’t go over very well in the lds church. Last night my husband told me because its symbolism it was offensive, like somebody wearing a swatstika. Well, I kinda flipped out at that comparison. Can anybody provide very early church documentation of the use of the cross? Most lds believe that the cross wasn’t used until maybe the time of the council of Nicea, which then gets into the great apostosy.

Thanks.

Hi mo -

Here is an article that seems well researched and documented.

newadvent.org/cathen/04517a.htm

God bless,
Subrosa

 

[BJ_Colbert]

momathome:

I’ve heard this ‘analogy’ many times in the lds church. It’s something one learns, and then regurgitates it without much thought, a common practice in the lds church.

Lds do not only avoid use of the cross as jewelry, but would be truly ashamed to be seen wearing one. It’s not used as a symbol in the lds like say the beehive (a symbol of industry and self reliance). No, it’s not banned from paintings, but you will never find it used alone as a symbol of what Christ did for us. I believe this unfortunately leads to forgetting our dependence on the cross, and leads to the striving for godhood out of our own merits./QUOTE

Momathome

The Cross is used as headstones for our servicemen who give their lives to protect our country…we do not think less of those who use the cross in their worship, we allow them the freedom of worshiping how, where and what they may.
I am sorry, but I resent having the whole LDS Church being compared to your insensitive husband. I think you should bring the subject up with him, and show him these posts. He needs to find out that he stands alone in comparing the Cross to a Swastika. Or maybe he stands with Hitler, I don’t know. I just know that what you are attributing to all LDS is not true and not fair.
You may have regurgitated all you learned, but I have received personal testimony through prayer and study that what I have learned is true and I feel it with all my heart and soul. You are allowed your free agency to believe as you wish, but do not say that all LDS are as shallow in their beliefs as you apparently have been. I hope that you will find what you are looking for and that you will learn to love your fellowman, and Jesus Christ above all.
BJ

 

[momathome]

The Cross is used as headstones for our servicemen who give their lives to protect our country…we do not think less of those who use the cross in their worship, we allow them the freedom of worshiping how, where and what they may.
I am sorry, but I resent having the whole LDS Church being compared to your insensitive husband. I think you should bring the subject up with him, and show him these posts. He needs to find out that he stands alone in comparing the Cross to a Swastika. Or maybe he stands with Hitler, I don’t know. I just know that what you are attributing to all LDS is not true and not fair.
You may have regurgitated all you learned, but I have received personal testimony through prayer and study that what I have learned is true and I feel it with all my heart and soul. You are allowed your free agency to believe as you wish, but do not say that all LDS are as shallow in their beliefs as you apparently have been. I hope that you will find what you are looking for and that you will learn to love your fellowman, and Jesus Christ above all.
BJ

BJ,

Obviously I upset you, and I apologize for that. But I certainly don’t apologize for generalizing certain lds characteristics. These are generalizations, yes, but I’ve been a church member for 25 years, married in the temple, currently teach relief society, and feel pretty well versed in lds theology. Every church has it’s own culture, there’s no denying it. As lds we like to make fun of our own ‘green jello, funeral potatoes, my heart is so full I had to bear my testimony today, oh my heck culture’. But we also have other not so funny aspects in the church that really bother me, and that’s why I’m here. If I could have a discussion with my lds friends without being cast as the doubting one I’d do it. Here in this forum I can ask my theological questions without getting the ‘you’re doubting, you have no faith, you’re trying to be intellectual’ response. My posts obviously reflect the battle going on in my heart.

I’ve noticed from your posts that your husband is catholic, and truthfully your posts reflect your membership as a partmember family. I’ve been thinking about this for the last week. I’ve even been planning on posting regarding this subject (our view of lds theology depending on our life circumstances). My posts of course reflect my own circumstances. I’m aware that my husband doesn’t reflect all of lds culture in his comparison of the cross to the swastika. But this is my life and my circumstances and I wanted to hear though what catholics, who revere the cross, would have to say to this. I still stand behind my statement that the lds church does not use the cross as a symbol.

Part of my frustration, if you’ve read my other posts, has been that we are given different answers and are shown a different side of the gospel when we are completely and unequivocably lds than when we are ‘on the fence’ or part member families. I apologize upfront for saying this, because I certainly don’t mean to offend you, because I know you consider yourself full lds, but you are also attending the catholic church, and like it or not you are not going to be seen or treated in the same light as someone who doesn’t divide their loyalty. I hear catholicism in your answers, and I love your answers. But they’re not completely 100 percent lds answers.

Then there’s the difference in the answers you’d get from new school lds like Robert Millet or Stephen Robinson compared to what you might have gotten from President Benson or Bruce R. McConkie. I love Millet and Robinson and many lds are resonding enthusiastically to this new type of lds theologian. But again, they are on the leading edge, affecting the lds theology but do not yet reflect the mainstream lds church. I believe that you fit in well with Millet and Robinson, and someday maybe the whole lds church will catch up.

 

[catholic-rcia]

President Hinckley wrote the following:

"For us, the cross is the symbol of the dying Christ, while our message is a declaration of the living Christ… the lives of our people must become the only meaningful expression of our faith and, in fact, therefore, the symbol of our worship… On Calvary he was the dying Jesus. From the tomb he emerged the living Christ. The cross had been the bitter fruit of Judas’ betrayal, the summary of Peter’s denial. The empty tomb now became the testimony of His divinity, the assurance of eternal life, the answer to Job’s unanswered question: “If a man die, shall he live again?” (Job 14: 14.)

The LDS do not see Baptism as dying in Christ to be risen in Christ. The Cross contains the great message and they have not yet received this revelation. The bitter fruit of our own sin aligned with Judas. The sin of desiring to be a god. The sin that took place in the garden when we chose self over Gods Grace. The reason we all die. You cannot come to an understanding of the risen Christ without coming to a realization that it is our own sin that he allowed to kill him. That we are the Cross upon his back, the lost lamb upon His back. That the only way home is to be carried upon the Shepard’s back. A journey that our Pope has just completed.

Hinckley “ The cross had been the bitter fruit of Judas’ betrayal”

It was the bitter fruit of the fall in the garden, a fall that includes all of us. The Bishop of Utah said on Sunday that some were upset when the Catholic Church laid to rest one of the Mafia. He spoke about when the high priest of Jesus time mentioned that Jesus consorted with sinners. That we must not forget that we all are buried as sinners, it should not be our judgment as to who is risen in Christ.

 

[mormon_fool]

I have a few thoughts for whatever they are worth.

No doubt that some mormons give little thought to the question why mormons don’t use crosses as frequent visual reminders of Jesus and his sacrifice as do other Christian faiths. If this is the case, it is up to us who have taken the time to become informed on the issue to help educate our fellow members. I occasionally do just that (on this and other like matters) when I am asked to teach lessons in church, home teaching visits, or even informally. I find that my fellow mormons are mostly receptive to my thoughts on the matter, especially when I am respectful.

Of course there are strongly opinionated mormons who take a different viewpoint than I do, but I don’t see the need to be overly critical or confrontational with them. If mormons suspect my orthodoxy, I can point to many fundamental tenets we all agree on. Questions such as these are largely open-ended. We shouldn’t expect to get “the answer” to them from any one individual, but study for ourselves what has been written in credible sources, pray for guidance, and use our own judgement.

I don’t want to marginalize anyone’s experiences or perceptions. I think putting them all together gives us the fuller picture. It is hard to strictly defend a postion only from anecdotal evidence. The citations from GBH give us the direction mormon attitudes should be towards the cross. He has been writing about a kinder, gentler approach to other faiths at least since the '70s. The work of Millet and Robinson seem to me to be just a continuation and amplification of this earlier established theme. It takes time for mormons to overcome deep-set idiosyncrasies.

later,
fool