What do you do when a stranger grabs your hand during Our Father prayer?

[ProVobis]

Hold hands or don’t hold hands, it’s fine with me–but freaking out because we have to deal with other people at church? We could just stay home and watch the service on EWTN if we don’t want to be troubled by the basic levels of human contact taking place at Mass.

If you think hand-holding or not is divisive, what about bi-lingual parishes? If that isn’t a case where people don’t want to deal with other people at church, I don’t know what is. Having an English Mass at 5 pm and a Spanish Mass at 7 pm doesn’t exactly bring everyone together as a community either, does it? I know first hand it doesn’t.

 

[Hawkiz]

At mass one Sunday, a lady beside me looked uneasy that I was putting my hands out without holding hers. I pretended not to notice her uneasiness as we’ve already started praying. A little after we started, she grabbed my hand. I felt very, very unhappy. I don’t want a stranger having physical contact with my palm. I do think she was being rude grabbing my hand off right like that. At another mass of the same time, my husband and I sat with her on the same pew again and I made my husband sit beside her instead. She did the same thing to him. How do we tell people like that firmly yet politely that we don’t have to hold hands at mass?

Sorry if I have ever been ‘that guy’! It is the common practice in my Diocese and in my parish. We actually go to sometimes great lengths (literally stretching to reach) to hold hands across the aisles, to the person sitting alone two pews back. I will try to be more conscious in the future.

Peace in Christ

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

If you think hand-holding or not is divisive, what about bi-lingual parishes? If that isn’t a case where people don’t want to deal with other people at church, I don’t know what is. Having an English Mass at 5 pm and a Spanish Mass at 7 pm doesn’t exactly bring everyone together as a community either, does it? I know first hand it doesn’t.

No, it doesn’t. But if you have more people in the parish than can fit at one Mass you’re going to have two (or three, or four) Masses anyway. And the people who are early risers wouldn’t want their 7:30 Mass eliminated while the people who sleep in wouldn’t want their noon Mass to be cut. So you’re still going to have different populations at different Masses.

The second thing with offering Masses in multiple languages is that you meet the spiritual and pastoral needs of people. At one point in my parish I had to make announcements at all the Masses. I wanted someone else to do them at the Spanish language Mass since I don’t speak Spanish. The pastor recommended that I make the announcement in English and then someone would translate it for me. He said that probably half the attendees would understand my English and the translator would cover the others. I asked why people attended the Spanish language Mass if they spoke English and he said that for many people who are bilingual, their first language is the one they pray in. Speaking the second language is more difficult and requires more concentration, so they can’t feel as drawn in to the mystery of God. So when you offer a Spanish or other language Mass, are you being divisive or are you meeting people’s needs?

 

[ProVobis]

The second thing with offering Masses in multiple languages is that you meet the spiritual and pastoral needs of people. At one point in my parish I had to make announcements at all the Masses. I wanted someone else to do them at the Spanish language Mass since I don’t speak Spanish. The pastor recommended that I make the announcement in English and then someone would translate it for me. He said that probably half the attendees would understand my English and the translator would cover the others. I asked why people attended the Spanish language Mass if they spoke English and he said that for many people who are bilingual, their first language is the one they pray in. Speaking the second language is more difficult and requires more concentration, so they can’t feel as drawn in to the mystery of God. So when you offer a Spanish or other language Mass, are you being divisive or are you meeting people’s needs?

If only Catholics had a common language to pray in and take instructions from…

Oh, wait…

 

[dans0622]

… The bow of the head at the mention of Christ, the Trinity, and the Blessed Virgin is NOT a required gesture. There was a thread about this a few weeks ago here on CAF. It was prescribed in the older form of the Mass, but not in the OF. …

Hello,

I didn’t see that other thread but the “GIRM” #275a does state: “A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.”

Dan

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

If only Catholics had a common language to pray in and take instructions from…

Oh, wait…

Right…we’d all be equally clueless and equally have our needs unmet. Perhaps there was a reason the Church went to the vernacular.

 

[Saints_Alive]

Right…we’d all be equally clueless and equally have our needs unmet. Perhaps there was a reason the Church went to the vernacular.

The pope who called VII in the first place gave several reasons not to abandon Latin in the liturgy. He did this in the Apostolic Constitution Veterum Sapientia.

I’m sure you know that an Apostolic Constitution is the highest level of decree that can be issued by a pope, but for the sake of those here who don’t know, I’m mentioning that fact.

Here is the gist of it '…

"***…Provisions for the Promotion of Latin Studies

With the foregoing considerations in mind, to which We have given careful thought, We now, in the full consciousness of Our Office and in virtue of Our authority, decree and command the following:**

Responsibility for enforcement

1. Bishops and superiors-general of religious orders shall take pains to ensure that in their seminaries and in their schools where adolescents are trained for the priesthood, all shall studiously observe the Apostolic See’s decision in this matter and obey these Our prescriptions most carefully.
2. In the exercise of their paternal care they shall be on their guard lest anyone under their jurisdiction, eager for revolutionary changes, writes against the use of Latin in the teaching of the higher sacred studies or in the Liturgy, or through prejudice makes light of the Holy See’s will in this regard or interprets it falsely…*"
   adoremus.org/VeterumSapientia.html

I’m not sure how the Church goes about rescinding an Apostolic Constitution, but in the case of St JXXIII’s AC being dismissed, I’ve never seen any explanation.

As far as being “clueless”, for those who were literate I’d say that was by choice. Missals with the Latin and English side by side make it possible to understand what is happening on the altar and a good missal that contains the priest’s rubrics allowed the faithful to follow the advice of one of our great popes.

"**The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. Is is the Sacrifice dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear the Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart, and mouth all that happens at the Altar.

Further, you must pray with the priest the holy words said by him in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way, you have prayed Holy Mass. **
-Pope St. Pius X

A little effort goes a long way with a good missal in our hands.

 

[clem456]

We have a Spanish Mass because the community asks for it.
I fear that many of you would die of shock at our Spanish Mass. The Hispanic culture is different for sure. It is spontaneous. The Mass starts when it starts, and people raise their hands at many different times. The Hispanic community is so reverent and fervent, very family oriented, very devoted to the Blessed Mother. The Hispanic community is revitalizing the whole parish.
But those who want a Euro-centric flavor to the Mass would be a little uneasy. (it’s good to be uneasy sometimes)

 

[Tigg]

We have a Spanish Mass because the community asks for it.
I fear that many of you would die of shock at our Spanish Mass. The Hispanic culture is different for sure. It is spontaneous. The Mass starts when it starts, and people raise their hands at many different times. The Hispanic community is so reverent and fervent, very family oriented, very devoted to the Blessed Mother. The Hispanic community is revitalizing the whole parish.

Broad-brushed comments to be sure which somehow implies others not of this environment are not so very (reverent and fervent.)

it’s good to be uneasy sometimes

And that goes both ways!

 

[ProVobis]

Right…we’d all be equally clueless and equally have our needs unmet. Perhaps there was a reason the Church went to the vernacular.

Didn’t have to be that way had we kept teaching Latin and we had all been on the same page, so to speak. Fortunately it’s made a comeback and one of my local parishes will begin teaching it this fall in the K-8 school. Does it have to end local culture, though? I think we found a way to preserve culture before we went all-divisive all-vernacular all-the-time.

Broad-brushed comments to be sure which somehow implies others not of this environment are not so very (reverent and fervent.)

Actually clem is right. I have attended Spanish Masses and can vouch for their devotion to the Blessed Virgin among other things. And all the Spanish I know I learned at their Mass.

 

[clem456]

Broad-brushed comments to be sure which somehow implies others not of this environment are not so very (reverent and fervent.)
And that goes both ways!

Can you just take the observations at face value? I implied nothing.

 

[DaveBj]

If you think hand-holding or not is divisive, what about bi-lingual parishes? If that isn’t a case where people don’t want to deal with other people at church, I don’t know what is. Having an English Mass at 5 pm and a Spanish Mass at 7 pm doesn’t exactly bring everyone together as a community either, does it? I know first hand it doesn’t.

We have English Masses at 5:30 p.m. on Saturday and 8:30 and 11:00 a.m. on Sunday, and Spanish Masses at 7:30 p.m. on Saturday and 6:00 p.m. (I think) on Sunday. There are Anglos who attend the Spanish Masses and Hispanics who attend the English Masses No big deal.

 

[ProVobis]

We have English Masses at 5:30 p.m. on Saturday and 8:30 and 11:00 a.m. on Sunday, and Spanish Masses at 7:30 p.m. on Saturday and 6:00 p.m. (I think) on Sunday. There are Anglos who attend the Spanish Masses and Hispanics who attend the English Masses No big deal.

No Polish Mass?

Bummer.

 

[DaveBj]

No Polish Mass?

Bummer.

Not a big demand in rural north-central Alabama

 

[babochka]

We have English Masses at 5:30 p.m. on Saturday and 8:30 and 11:00 a.m. on Sunday, and Spanish Masses at 7:30 p.m. on Saturday and 6:00 p.m. (I think) on Sunday. There are Anglos who attend the Spanish Masses and Hispanics who attend the English Masses No big deal.

That’s wonderful. My mother-in-law’s parish has English and Spanish Masses each week, and it is as if there are two separate parishes, each with separate CCD programs (English on one night, Spanish on the other), youth groups, fundraisers, etc. I don’t know if that is the norm in bi-lingual parishes, but it is quite a difficult situation in her parish.

 

[Cat]

Hello,

I didn’t see that other thread but the “GIRM” #275a does state: “A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.”

Dan

Are we talking about the OF Mass or the EF Mass?

I’ve seen several missalettes for OF Masses, and although they do spell out (in italics) that bow during the mention of the Incarnation (in the Creed), I have never seen any instructions to bow the head at the mention of Jesus, the BVM, or the saint.

I think it’s fair to assume that if it isn’t in the instruction book, it’s not required.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If you can show me an example of what you described–totalitarian demands based on private personal preference–from the above thread, I would have a much better idea of what you mean. It sounds like you are being considerably uncharitable, but I’ve probably misunderstood you.

How could we be mad that we have to make very minor sacrifices for our brethren (and sistren) at church and at the same time call ourselves disciples of Jesus? If we cannot forgive our fellow Christians their very minor trespasses against us at church, how can we expect God to forgive our real transgressions when we are out in the world? And yet we believe that he does, and he is our example.

Hold hands or don’t hold hands, it’s fine with me–but freaking out because we have to deal with other people at church? We could just stay home and watch the service on EWTN if we don’t want to be troubled by the basic levels of human contact taking place at Mass.

Yes, you did misunderstand. I said it ‘seems’, not that it is. . .

Your ‘minor’ sacrifice may be something major to another person.

It is not about ‘not forgiving trespasses’, it’s about the fact that some (not all) people unfairly and uncharitably argue that a person who does not hold hands is ‘not dealing with people’, “not wanting contact with people’, “unfriendly”, 'not like Jesus”. . .instead of realizing that these people are far more likely to be dealing with crippling arthritis or other bone or joint issues, compromised immune systems, etc. Even those who might shy away from a forced (and in some cases this is forced, literally; in others the assumption that ‘only a cad would not shake hands’ is a powerful psychological ‘compulsion’) encounter are not doing so because they personally do not want to be loving, but due to having emotional issues that may be temporary or permanent.

Suppose that a young girl, who has made herself go to Mass in an effort to try to get her life back on track after being assaulted by some thuggish classmates is noticeably’ shaken and looking shocked/upset/etc when out of the blue her hand is grabbed by a youngish person, and she pulls away. Does she dislike THIS person? No, but out of the psychological aftereffects of an assault, her body instinctively reacts this way. Does she have to stand up and announce, “hey nobody touch me at Mass please because I was assaulted and it will make me upset”? She shouldn’t have to. Remember, it’s not that she doesn’t want to be friendly, or that this particular person is repulsive to her. Hopefully after a period of time and counseling and quiet, she’ll be perfectly comfortable with touch, even ‘unexpected’ touch, but right now, she isn’t. This is no ‘minor issue’, and this woman’s feelings should be at least as respected as anyone else’s, don’t you agree?

Why are people so quick to say, “Hold the hand of the person, he or she might need that touch”, and so slow to say, “Wait, if a person seems uncomfortable, don’t keep after them, they might be going through some cross where they need personal autonomy.”

I’m really not asking for anything ‘more’ for a person who for whatever reason does not want to shake hands at a given Mass than what is asked for the person who does want to shake hands. I’m only asking for mutual acceptance of the other person’s choice. It is not ‘better’ to shake hands than it is to bow one’s head or to speak the words, “Peace be with you”. It is not ‘better’ for the person who has arthritis or has just gone through radiation or chemo or is taking drugs for hepatitis, or who is battling depression, anxiety, or who has just undergone some kind of catastrophe and is emotionally fragile, to have to suffer needlessly because another person feels that he or she has to have his/her hand shaken because that is his/her personal preference.

 

[Tigg]

Can you just take the observations at face value? I implied nothing.

Well, when you say "I fear that many of you would die of shock at our Mass and that it might make us uneasy (which apparently you consider to be good thing,) I have to respond to that. How could being uncomfortable benefit my spirituality and aid in my praise and worship of God? As the poster below has already said, the liturgy is not about personal preference and we need respectful consideration of each other. I haven’t read this whole thread, but somewhere in these pages someone must have posted that Redemptionis Sacramentum forbids the Mass to be celebrated according to anyone’s “whim.”

Why are people so quick to say, “Hold the hand of the person, he or she might need that touch”, and so slow to say, “Wait, if a person seems uncomfortable, don’t keep after them, they might be going through some cross where they need personal autonomy.”

I’m really not asking for anything ‘more’ for a person who for whatever reason does not want to shake hands at a given Mass than what is asked for the person who does want to shake hands. I’m only asking for mutual acceptance of the other person’s choice. It is not ‘better’ to shake hands than it is to bow one’s head or to speak the words, “Peace be with you”. It is not ‘better’ for the person who has arthritis or has just gone through radiation or chemo or is taking drugs for hepatitis, or who is battling depression, anxiety, or who has just undergone some kind of catastrophe and is emotionally fragile, to have to suffer needlessly because another person feels that he or she has to have his/her hand shaken because that is his/her personal preference.

:tiphat:

 

[Mark121359]

As the poster below has already said, the liturgy is not about personal preference and we need respectful consideration of each other. I haven’t read this whole thread, but somewhere in these pages someone must have posted that Redemptionis Sacramentum forbids the Mass to be celebrated according to anyone’s “whim.”

About the Orans gesture, Colin B. Donovan, STL of EWTN Said this;

Among the laity this practice began with the charismatic renewal. Used in private prayer it has worked its way into the Liturgy. It is a legitimate gesture to use when praying, as history shows, however, it is a private gesture when used in the Mass and in some cases conflicts with the system of signs which the rubrics are intended to protect. The Mass is not a private or merely human ceremony. The symbology of the actions, including such gestures, is definite and precise, and reflects the sacramental character of the Church’s prayer. As the Holy See has recently pointed out, confusion has entered the Church about the hierarchical nature of her worship, and this gesture certainly contributes to that confusion when it conflicts with the ordered sign language of the Mass…ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

The people on here who say “just suck it up and get over it” are missing the bigger picture. These gestures of the Priest at Mass have symbolic meaning, as Colin Donovan points out above. I don’t know why I feel this way, but why do I suspect that a lot of this “hand holding” is all connected to this “modernism” that has crept more and more into the Catholic Church? I never encounter this when I attend the TLM.

Peace, Mark