What do you say to people who say Catholicism is violent?

[Mike_from_NJ]

Ok. Thank you. I suggest you take each verse in turn, and give me your interpretation.

I think the verses speak for themselves, but I’ll offer up very brief interpretations on them.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Here we see the reader is being told to fight against those who are aware of Islam but don’t practice it unless they pay a tribute. Non-believers are to be treated either as second-class citizens who are to pay a tax or be subject to violence. 9:30 through 9-35 talk about what fools Jews and Christians are and what doom Allah has awaiting them.

9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

I think it’s safe to say the “harshness” that awaits disbelieves is not a sternly-worded letter.

4:88 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O Muhammad) canst not find a road.
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Any disbelievers that try to explain faults with the belief are to be killed. The sensitivity of believers is such that even getting together with other disbelievers is enough to cite it as an insult to Islam. Check out this scary story of the Atheism Association in Turkey.

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Again, this is talking about those non-believers who will not pay the tax/fee demanded of them. The choice is to pay for being a second-class citizen or face violence.

The fact is that Sharia law says the penalty for apostasy is death. Here’s a video (less than a minute) where an advocate admitted as such:

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

You may cite a few surahs that talk about allowing people to believe as they wish. These, of course, neglect to note that:

1. Non-believers were often required to pay for not being believers
2. As I noted above a mere gathering of non-believers was enough to threaten death.
3. Apostates are not given this privilege to believe as they wish.

If you wish I can link to several articles of people who were marked as a believer at birth and who incurred wrath as adults for straying from the faith.

 

[Hodos]

I think you tell people to look at the doctrines of Christianity, and the apostolic writings in the Bible to determine if the faith itself teaches or refutes violence. Since we know it doesn’t promote violence, but condemns it, then you have to conclude that the sinful acts committed in the name of Catholicism or Protestantism in the past are aberrations from Christian doctrine, not the result of it. Then you repent and follow God’s Word.

 

[Niblo]

I think the verses speak for themselves, but I’ll offer up very brief interpretations on them.

Thank you for your posts.

Let’s remind ourselves of your original claim; that there are: ‘Multiple surahs that call for violence against apostates.’

You are mistaken.

Although the Qur’an speaks of apostasy more than a dozen times; nowhere does it authorise an earthly punishment for abandoning faith. On the contrary, Allāh (subḥānahu ūta’āla) reserves for Himself the right to judge such behaviour; and to do so on the Day of Judgement: ‘Whether Allāh relents towards them or punishes them is not for you (Prophet) to decide: they are wrongdoers. Everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Allāh. He forgives whoever He will and punishes whoever He will: Allāh is most forgiving and merciful.’ (Al‘Imran: 128-129); and again: ‘So (Prophet) warn them: your only task is to give warning, you are not there to control them. As for those who turn away and disbelieve, Allāh will inflict the greatest torment upon them. It is to Us they will return, and then it is for Us to call them to account.’ (Al-Ghashiya: 21-24); and again: ‘If any of you revoke your faith and die as disbelievers, your deeds will come to nothing in this world and the Hereafter, and you will be inhabitants of the Fire, there to remain.’ (Al-Baqara: 217).

You have offered a number of verses in support of your claim. In šāʾ Allāh, I propose to deal with each of them, over several posts.

 

[Niblo]

I think the verses speak for themselves, but I’ll offer up very brief interpretations on them.

Referring to Al-Nisa 88 and 89 you write: ‘Any disbelievers that try to explain faults with the belief are to be killed. The sensitivity of believers is such that even getting together with other disbelievers is enough to cite it as an insult to Islam.’

Let’s have a look (the verses you reference are emphasised in the following):

‘(Believers), why are you divided in two about the hypocrites, when Allāh Himself has rejected them because of what they have done? Do you want to guide those Allāh has left to stray? If Allāh leaves anyone to stray, you (Prophet) will never find the way for him. They would dearly like you to reject faith, as they themselves have done, to be like them. So do not take them as allies until they migrate (to Medina) for Allāh’s cause. If they turn (on you)*, then seize and kill them wherever you encounter them. Take none of them as an ally or supporter. But as for those who seek refuge with people with whom you have a treaty, or who come over to you because their hearts shrink from fighting against you or against their own people, Allāh could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw and do not fight you, and offer you peace, then Allāh gives you no way against them. (Al-Nisa: 88-90).

• The intended meaning is clear from the context; it is to ‘turn with aggression’; to ‘attack’.

Verse 89 refers to those ‘hypocrites’ who sought to turn the Muslims away from faith; to become like them.

Of itself, this behaviour does not merit punishment. However, should the hypocrites go on to attack the Muslims (and only if they do so) then permission given to fight back.

In verse 90 the Muslim are warned that they must not fight against those hypocrites who have sought refuge among people who have a treaty with the Muslims. In addition, those hypocrites who offer peace – who cease their aggression – are to be left alone; regardless of their hypocrisy.

It is difficult to understand what you find objectionable. And by the way, these verses have nothing to do with apostasy!

 

[Niblo]

I think the verses speak for themselves, but I’ll offer up very brief interpretations on them.

Concerning sūrah 9 (Al-Tawba); verse 29:

‘Fight those of the People of the Book who do not (truly) believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, who do not obey the rule of justice, until they pay the tax and agree to submit.’

You write: ‘Here we see the reader is being told to fight against those who are aware of Islam but don’t practice it unless they pay a tribute. Non-believers are to be treated either as second-class citizens who are to pay a tax or be subject to violence.’

Al-Tawba 29 is the so-called ‘jizya verse’.

It is important to note that the following non-Muslims were exempted from paying the tax (around 1 dinar a year): women; children; the elderly; the handicapped; the sick; monks; hermits; slaves; and the insane. Non-Muslim foreigners, whose residence in a Muslim State was temporary, were also exempt. Non-Muslims who elected to join the State’s armed forces were also exempt.

This verse does not address all Jews and Christians, but only their young men of military age.

The offence is failing to pay what is due to the Muslim state in which these young men live. They are tax-dodgers, not apostates from Islam! They are not required to become Muslims, merely to pay the tax.

It seems I cannot add any more replies until someone replies to me!! To be continued.

 

[Ryan1]

With all respect to John Paul 2, the Church, the spotless Bride of Christ, doesn’t need to apologize for ANYTHING.

Nor does it make sense for one person to apologize for the actions of another. If the burning of a heretic was not the correct application of justice, the sin is upon the judge, the false witness, etc. Not Holy Mother Church.

 

[Lookingforjoy]

When people say that Catholicism is violent I usually start to say that it was in the past, and we aren’t that way anymore. But then I remember the numerous “Deus vult” memes out there, and I get humble and shut my mouth.

 

[Ryan1]

What do memes have to do with Catholicism?

 

[Lookingforjoy]

You can find them right here on CAF. If they weren’t made by Catholics, they’re perpetuated by Catholics. Google “Deus vult meme” and you’ll see what I mean.

I don’t mean that all Catholics are violent. But I do mean that some people have reason to believe that we glorify violence. We need to humbly admit that we were wrong in the past, and hold each other accountable for our words in the present.

 

[Mary888]

I would say a violent past is prefered to a violent future.