What do you say to people who say Catholicism is violent?

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I don’t think moral relativism is ever “the only option”. And its never a good option.
 
Fets said:
I don’t think moral relativism is ever “the only option”. And its never a good option.
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But that’s what people are doing when they say sure Christians committed atrocities, but LOOK, so did Islam.
 
Except when people refer to radicalised Islam they aren’t using past tense, it’s not moral relativism to point out that some Islamist groups continue doing even today what is alleged for some Christians during one of the darkest periods of human history.

It’s also not moral relativism to point out that for the scripture of both groups, Catholicism has said little condoning any act of violence (and apparently Islam does condone it in some instances, for example apostasy I think).

-Kindest regards, James.
 
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As I said upthread, there is a present day violence in Islam far greater than that of Christianity. Islam needs an Elightenment much like Christianity had.

As far as violence between the two group’s religious writings, you mentioned violence against apostates. Yes there are multiple surahs that call for violence against apostates, but the Bible says so too in Deuteronomy 13:6-11.
 
Sometimes I wonder if there is any Muslim apologists that would explain away the violent verses that are apparently in the quran, since somebody could easily say the same about the Bible, but we know that those are the old testament.
Islam is apparently gaining converts in the west, so I’m sure there’s something they use to talk them away… whyislam.com is one that I’ve found, I’m sure there’s others.
 
Rather than defend against the same old attacks, which come from that view of history which only sees the past while wearing the glasses of the progressive present—and often has quite the ideologically skewed view of it anyway—make a counterattack:

Tell them about Dorothy Day and about those Catholics in the past century who worked for peace and justice all over the world, Tell them about the Jews saved by the Church during WWII, about St. Maximillian Kolbe giving his life in place of a Jew at Aushwitz, about St. Teresa of Calcutta giving her life daily to serve untouchables…about the prayers for peace throughout the world, which we pray every single day. About Mary, Queen of Peace. About Pax Christi. We can go on forever, those are just some people and things I thought of in 15 seconds.

Make them aware of that old paradox Chesterton talked about in ‘Orthodoxy.’ Some say the Church is too violent, too militant. Others say She is peaceful to a fault, toohesitant to act.

Well, which one is it?? Is it the Church who is wrong or is it that’s Her critics don’t know Her many sides and shades?

(The Church has a healthy hatred of beige!)
 
Gee, I don’t know. Do you bring up the almost 60 million abortions in the US in a few decades? It seems the Catholic Church is the last defender of the dignity of the human person.

The command to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick has been the motivation for hospitals to be built, universities and schools, advanced science and medicine, plus art and music. The Church has a very long history of building and advancing knowledge. Practicing Catholics have a very long history of service and love of neighbor.
 
Those who are not open to Catholicism must consistently raise the red herrings and believe the canards that have been fabricated by those who desire only to justify their separation from the Catholic Church. Never do they go so far as to question the catechism - which is where they should begin.

Ask the Anabaptists how they were treated by the early reformers. Persecuted, tortured and murdered. Look up the English Catholic martyrs during the penal times in England. Catholics were imprisoned, tortured and murdered for the sin of being Catholic. The list goes on and on.

Did the Catholic Church engage in some of the same? Yes, but this only points to the fact that pot is calling the kettle black here when it shares the same human sin. All mankind has blood on their hands.

Far better to seek the truth, and not just a partial, personally acceptable truth.

All of it.
 
People with power are violent, and the Catholic Church is made up of people and was powerful. Simple stuff.
 
I’ll second this and also add that, while the Church should stand apart from and above the rest of the world, it takes time for the light, which was introduced into the world two millenia ago, to penetrate hearts and change humankind on a larger or more universal scale. We often prefer darkness, in spite of what we might profess to the contrary.

But Jesus challenges us to love as He did, as He does, and promises the grace to do it, and gradually that light has shone into many areas of human affairs, from the building of hospitals and orphanages to the development of the university system to strides in arts and science and the pursuit of excellence in general to untold hours of volunteer work and amounts of wealth donated, clothing the naked and feeding the hungry, loving ones enemy instead of vanquishing him, to social justice and civil rights issues. Altruism on an unheard of level compared to ages past.

And I think the Church is now better than ever at proclaiming and practicing the gospel of love, of knowing God’s nature and will, even as some of her people continue to prove in far too many ways that the doctrine of Original Sin is valid, such that men will always struggle with selfishness, foolishness, and sin.
 
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Niblo said:
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Mike_from_NJ:
Yes there are multiple surahs that call for violence against apostates
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Please name them.
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9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

4:88 What aileth you that ye are become two parties regarding the hypocrites, when Allah cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they earned? Seek ye to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him thou (O Muhammad) canst not find a road.
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And here are a few passages that talk strongly against apostates, but do not give a specific punishment:

3:90 Lo! those who disbelieve after their (profession of) belief, and afterward grow violent in disbelief: their repentance will not be accepted. And such are those who are astray.

9:66 Make no excuse. Ye have disbelieved after your (confession of) belief. If We forgive a party of you, a party of you We shall punish because they have been guilty.

16:88 For those who disbelieve and debar (men) from the way of Allah, We add doom to doom because they wrought corruption,

I have to be up in less than 6 hours, so we’ll pick this up later.
 
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Shasta-Rose said:
You want the man to write you a few dozen essays? Seriously?
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With respect, I was not addressing you.

I offer Mike the opportunity to justify his claim; the burden of proof, after all, rests with him. I feel sure he is capable of speaking for himself; he seems willing to do so (‘we’ll pick this up later’).

Have a nice day.
 
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Violence is sadly part of the human condition. Catholics are human beings, so yea, we sin too.
But Catholicism itself is nonviolent.

The fact that one physician is an alcoholic doesn’t mean we denigrate the practice of medicine. Right?
 
on_the_hill said:
No one has ever said that to me. Not to my face, anyway. And they’d better not, if they know what’s good for ‘em. Turn the other cheek? Ha! I’ll turn his cheek right onta th’ other side-ah his head.
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Which will prove to him that Catholics are violent. Well done. 😛
 
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