What do you think about Christian Zionism?

[Athanasiy]

So what is this “evil” you refer to?

The Christian Zionists take the single texts , not considering the ongoing ways these texts must be interpreted and handled.

The Christian Zionists have their own interpretation of the God’s will.
I agree that God himself defines what is right and wrong only in the terms of his will alone.
But even if they believe in those theories , for example if I do lets say … suposed God’s will , for me it has matter , wether I am St.John or Judah.

What is the evil I reffer ?
Starting from this point , with all my respect and love for the Jews, I agree that Israel , the country which already exist as any other country , has a right for self-defence as any other country.
But the citizens of Palestine wether they are Muslims or Catholics
must be treated as ’ someones not somethings’.

I would rather answer from the Cathechism :

We have a responsibility for the sins commited by others , when we cooperate in them ;

• by participating directly and voluntarily in them
• by ordering , advising , praising or approving them.

If the country in self-defence uses more than necessary violence it is unlawful.

… Reparation for injustice commited requires the restitution of stolen goods to their owner or return the equivalent.

 

[bengal_fan]

If you do your history, you will realize that the Palestinians were Jews since the time of 70 AD..

ummm, not true. some maybe were and then converted to Islam later (highly unlikely though). most of the Palestinians there were simply descendents from the other people that inhabited that area. if you do your history, you’ll see that.

There was not much of anyone there until Jews started immigrating back prior to 1948, the land was pretty much desolate.

again, not true. there were many people groups (all summed up as “arabs”) who lived in that area. they were then displaced when the UN decided to restore Israel.

** All of the Arabs that chose to stay in Israel before the war in 1948 are now free citizens in a free society. Arabs who choose to live in Israel now are able to partake in all of the freedoms the Jews have**. The ones that left have not been taken in by the surrounding countries (Who are much larger and should be wealthier) to be used as political pawns. They still want Israel to be wiped off of the map and use the Palestinian lie to garner support from around the world.

Rome renamed Israel to Palestine after the Jewish rebellion in 70 AD.

again, this is not how it plays out. have you ever talked with a displaced palestinian? one who had their home stripped from them and was forced to move somewhere (much like the ghettos in Germany during WWII) else? i have, they will tell you that they are very much second class “citizens” in that area. they do not have the same rights and priveledges as the Jewish population.

now, do i think the Jewish people should have a homeland… you bet, but they should have to work with the people who were living there beforehand as well. they have historically not been too willing to do that. they have suffered extreme persecution and that is a terrible thing and would make anyone more defensive, but at some point we must be able to look to the future and be peacemakers. there is room for everyone over there. and of course the PLO has not helped matters either (nor any of the other “liberation” groups), but they grew out of the feeling they were being treated unfairly.

 

[Lev23]

What do you think about Christian Zionism? - **A rotten idea **

So you think Christians supporting Israel and the prophecy that the Jews will come back out of all nations to resettle the land is a load of you know what?

Well despite what you believe, those people living there are called facts. They are not scattered around the world sitting pretty in theological circles saying they belong to the land and doing nothing about it. God spoke that he will open the way up for them to come back to the land, not because they deserve it, but for his name’s sake, this has happened, like scripture foretold. The land has responded to Jews hand, like scripture says it would. I could go on and on.

Christian Zionism is supporting God’s prophecy without working against it. Prophecy is scripture, in Revelation 19:10-“Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy.”
Christians are there helping in Jesus’s name.

 

[Lev23]

Lev,
most Christian zionists are that way because they believe that if they don’t support Israel, they are against God. it’s just not true. Israel is supposed to be set up by the Messiah. the temple is to be rebuilt by the Messiah. not the UN and not by the might of other nations. the problem with this secular (not involving a Messiah) zionist movement is that it has provided no home for the palestinians who had been living there for hundreds of years. God has expanded His family to include all peoples (thank you Jesus) and that includes the palestinians. when Jesus comes back, He will set up the new Jerusalem. this is not done by executive order or by UN might, but by God.

Most Christian Zionists are this way because they acknowledge the fact this is prophecy in the making. Prophecy that will be fulfilled in Gods own time, unknown to man. Christian Zionists realize that the world, mostly led by the UN, hate Israel and condemn it on a regular basis. I don’t know what good the UN has done for Israel since it accepted it as a nation back in the 1940’s. Condemnation after condemnation, you would think the rest of the world is a paradise the way Israel is dumped on. Like there isn’t nothing else evil happening outside Israel. So many countries take on for themselves the time to hate Israel, with Iran leading the way.

Christian Zionism believes now that Israel as a whole is as wicked and Godless a country as the US and the rest of the nations are. But they are the only nation that if they called on and relied on the promises of the God of their Fathers to protect them instead of using their own bullets and bombs, God would do so.

Christian Zionism doesn’t look at the Israeli population and call sending missions there “fruitless”. It is far better for them to accept Jesus now than later.

 

[Lev23]

again, this is not how it plays out. have you ever talked with a displaced palestinian? one who had their home stripped from them and was forced to move somewhere (much like the ghettos in Germany during WWII) else? i have, they will tell you that they are very much second class “citizens” in that area. they do not have the same rights and priveledges as the Jewish population.

.

Yes, like I said, read up on Walid Shoebat. He said one night back in the 1960’s his family went from being Jordanians to Palestineans.

Anyways, Palestieneans who live in Israel can serve on the Knesset.

 

[Lev23]

The conversion of the Jews is choice they have to make on their own. Polteryizing them bears no fruit. It is pretty clear they the reject Extreme Evangelical Christians to convert them.

Do I believe Jews will be save? Yes, it is up to them to accept the will of God.

Bears no fruit huh?

Excerpts from Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. …

…“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

So at the time of the Apostles, some of Israel listened, most did not. For however long the Lord takes to come back, you should see this happening in every generation, that is some of Israel calling on the name of the Lord, Jesus, and most not doing so. But they can’t call on that name if we deem witnessing to them “fruitless”.

 

[bengal_fan]

Most Christian Zionists are this way because they acknowledge the fact this is prophecy in the making. Prophecy that will be fulfilled in Gods own time, unknown to man. .

then maybe they should read the part in the prophecy where it says that the Messiah will be the one who does it, not us. the orthodox jews get this, it’s the sects that are no longer waiting for the Messiah who are trying to do it on their own.

 

[bengal_fan]

Yes, like I said, read up on Walid Shoebat. He said one night back in the 1960’s his family went from being Jordanians to Palestineans.

Anyways, Palestieneans who live in Israel can serve on the Knesset.

why don’t you go over there and talk to the palestinians there. there’s a number of Christian palestinians who would be happy to share their experiences of feeling abandoned by the Christian church for the Jewish Nation. don’t just read one source, look at many and get a bigger picture.

 

[AbeOman]

Yes, like I said, read up on Walid Shoebat. He said one night back in the 1960’s his family went from being Jordanians to Palestineans.

Anyways, Palestieneans who live in Israel can serve on the Knesset.

Can they serve in the army, air force, become generals, serve in the intelligence services? become a president of the state? the prime minister? chief of staff of IDF?
Yes, the law gives any Palestinian Israeli citizen the right to vote and run for the Knesset but this due to their sheer numbers and cities or towns that they are the majority, nothing more nothing less.

 

[AbeOman]

Most Christian Zionists are this way because they acknowledge the fact this is prophecy in the making. Prophecy that will be fulfilled in Gods own time, unknown to man. Christian Zionists realize that the world, mostly led by the UN, hate Israel and condemn it on a regular basis. I don’t know what good the UN has done for Israel since it accepted it as a nation back in the 1940’s. Condemnation after condemnation, you would think the rest of the world is a paradise the way Israel is dumped on. Like there isn’t nothing else evil happening outside Israel. So many countries take on for themselves the time to hate Israel, with Iran leading the way.

Christian Zionism believes now that Israel as a whole is as wicked and Godless a country as the US and the rest of the nations are. But they are the only nation that if they called on and relied on the promises of the God of their Fathers to protect them instead of using their own bullets and bombs, God would do so.

Christian Zionism doesn’t look at the Israeli population and call sending missions there “fruitless”. It is far better for them to accept Jesus now than later.

**What is Christian Zionism…? And what has it got to do with returning of the Messiah the Christ….?
I thought Zionism was like any other political manifestations likes of Communism, liberalism and all the other isms.
In my very limited knowledge and basic common sense, I thought Zionism was a political movement that supported creation of Jewish state in Palestine as outlined by it’s founder Theodor Herzl in the late nineteenth century…!!! Am I wrong here…?

And do the Jews themselves accept Jesus…? revere him or hold in the highest regard? Is there something I don’t know you know and would like to share…? **

 

[nightphoenix]

My question is simply this: why do jews from eurpean/russian decent have any more claim to ‘the land’ than palestinians who can trace their lineage back to jews of the first century? The only real difference is european jews practice Judaism, and palestinians with jewish lineage are mostly Christians. Why does one have more claim over the land than the other?

For a well balanced understanding of the historical understanding of the Second Coming, check out ‘A Second Look at the Second Coming’…it’s from an Eastern Orthodox writer, but Catholics should have no objections. And is a must read for every Zionist…

amazon.com/Second-Look-Coming/dp/1888212144

 

[Mannyfit75]

Is God a liar?

No he is truth.

The Church has not replaced Israel we have only been grafted in.

The Church is Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Jesus established a New Covenant. The Old Covenant is the Jewish Covenant. It isn’t null and void because God is always faithful.

However, the sacrifice done by Jews by using animal sacrifice no longer satisfy God.

God spoke through the Prophet Malachi saying:

"From the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and every place incense is offered to my name and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the Lord of hosts. (Malachi 1:11).

Therefore, God, through Malachi say that he would eventually reject animal sacrifices and instead accept a pure offering around the clock and in every place. The pure offering can be the memorial sacrifice of Jesus Christ, our Lamb without blemish.

Malachi goes on to say that, with the coming of the Messiah, “Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of the old and as in the Former” (Mal 3:4). Jeremiah similarly prophesies, “David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offering, to burn cereal offering and to make sacrifices forever.”

However, the Church itself is superior to Old Covenant.

It is God who converts people, not Evangelical Christians.

Of course. I have said that numerous times.

The Jews are inside the will of God whether they realize it or not.

Provided that remain faithful to the commandment God has given them.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Bears no fruit huh?

Excerpts from Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. …

…“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

So at the time of the Apostles, some of Israel listened, most did not. For however long the Lord takes to come back, you should see this happening in every generation, that is some of Israel calling on the name of the Lord, Jesus, and most not doing so. But they can’t call on that name if we deem witnessing to them “fruitless”.

Of course, the first 3,000 Christians were Jews. I am only saying that forcing someone to convert isn’t good. It does more damage. People ought to convert if they are willing to listen to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Lev23]

Of course, the first 3,000 Christians were Jews. I am only saying that forcing someone to convert isn’t good. It does more damage. People ought to convert if they are willing to listen to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The number was higher than 3000.

Anyways, I really don’t know what you are trying to say. Where did I mention forced conversions?

 

[Lev23]

The Church is Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. Jesus established a New Covenant. The Old Covenant is the Jewish Covenant. It isn’t null and void because God is always faithful.

.

Why wouldn’t the New Covenant be a Jewish Covenant also?

Jeremiah 31:31-33
“The time is coming,” declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

  It will not be like the covenant 
   I made with their forefathers 
   when I took them by the hand 
   to lead them out of Egypt, 
   because they broke my covenant, 
   though I was a husband to them, " 
   declares the LORD. 

  **"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel 
   after that time,"** declares the LORD. 
   "I will put my law in their minds 
   and write it on their hearts. 
   I will be their God, 
   and they will be my people.

Paul says in Romans 11 there is always a remnant of Israel saved by Grace. You yourself said the first Christians were Jewish.

 

[meedo]

boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007/10/28/tutu_urges_jews_to_challenge_oppression_of_palestinians/

In a lengthy and emotional address to a packed Old South Church, where the faint din of pro-Israel protesters could be heard through the stone walls, Tutu cited passages from the Hebrew Bible to argue that the God worshiped by Jews would champion the cause of Palestinians.

“Remembering what happened to you in Egypt and much more recently in Germany - remember, and act appropriately,” he said, alluding to the enslavement of Jews in Egypt described in the book of Exodus, as well as to the Nazi Holocaust. “If you reject your calling, you may survive for a long time, but you will find it is all corrosive inside, and one day you will implode.”

His remarks, to a congregation of about 850, created controversy even before they were delivered. A wide array of Jewish community leaders and organizations **denounced Sabeel, the Palestinian Christian organization **that put together the conference at which Tutu spoke, as anti-Israel, and rued Tutu’s support of the group.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Lev,
most Christian zionists are that way because they believe that if they don’t support Israel, they are against God. it’s just not true. Israel is supposed to be set up by the Messiah. the temple is to be rebuilt by the Messiah. not the UN and not by the might of other nations. the problem with this secular (not involving a Messiah) zionist movement is that it has provided no home for the palestinians who had been living there for hundreds of years. God has expanded His family to include all peoples (thank you Jesus) and that includes the palestinians. when Jesus comes back, He will set up the new Jerusalem. this is not done by executive order or by UN might, but by God.

It is also my impression that Isreal would not be secular, but would be following the Messiah which modern Isreal does NOT, thus modern Isreal fails at being a fulfillment of prophecy on that account.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Is God a liar?

The Church has not replaced Israel we have only been grafted in.

It is God who converts people, not Evangelical Christians.

The Jews are inside the will of God whether they realize it or not.

Oh, those who reject Jesus as Messiah are following God’s will by doing so? Please.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Rome renamed Israel to Palestine after the Jewish rebellion in 70 AD.

Your proof of this statement is what?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

So you think Christians supporting Israel and the prophecy that the Jews will come back out of all nations to resettle the land is a load of you know what?

Well despite what you believe, those people living there are called facts. They are not scattered around the world sitting pretty in theological circles saying they belong to the land and doing nothing about it. God spoke that he will open the way up for them to come back to the land, not because they deserve it, but for his name’s sake, this has happened, like scripture foretold. The land has responded to Jews hand, like scripture says it would. I could go on and on.

Christian Zionism is supporting God’s prophecy without working against it. Prophecy is scripture, in Revelation 19:10-“Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy.”
Christians are there helping in Jesus’s name.

Yes, if God did it, it would be “for his name’s sake” and yet God does not get the credit in modern Isreal, and they do not believe in the Messiah, Jesus.

Romans 11:24-33 (King James Version)

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, **until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: **

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father’s sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

If modern Isreal is a fulfillment of prophecy then why are they still denying that Jesus is the Messiah?

Do not the scriptures teach that they will believe in Jesus as the Messiah when God regathers Isreal?

Why are there Jews in other lands still? Does not the scriptures teach that All Isreal would return to the land? Not just some?

What are all the scriptures related to the Jewish peoples returning to the land of Isreal?