What do you think about Christian Zionism?

[Daniel_Marsh]

Yes, like I said, read up on Walid Shoebat. He said one night back in the 1960’s his family went from being Jordanians to Palestineans.

Anyways, Palestieneans who live in Israel can serve on the Knesset.

Even Arab Members of Parliament (Knesset) are systematically excluded from serving in ‘sensitive’ Parliamentarian committees, solely because of their ethny
jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-palestinian-apartheidlaws.html

With regard to political participation, rights, and representation, Israeli laws directly discriminate against the Israeli Palestinians by restricting the terms of citizenship. One example is the “Basic Law: the Knesset, section 7A” passed by the Knesset (Israeli’s parliament) on May 15, 2002. The law empowers the central election committee to prohibit individuals and entire political parties from running for the Knesset if they either a) reject Israel’s identity as a “Jewish and democratic state”, or b)

Support the armed struggle of an enemy state or terrorist organization of Israel. The Law further requires candidates to make a formal declaration consistent with those provisions. They must say, “I pledge allegiance to the state of Israel and refrain from acting contrarily to principles of section 7A of the Basic Law: the Knesset”.
zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7663

Distorted Claim 1: “While Arabs are twenty percent of Israel, only 12 (10%) of Knesset members are Arab including only one Arab woman.”

Facts to Refute Claim 1: Making the case that this represents discrimination shows a gross lack of insight. Many of Israel’s Arabs vote for Jewish Zionist parties because the Arab-dominated parties are too radical. If every Arab voter voted for Arab candidates, their numbers in the Knesset would be higher. And if Arab women were more empowered within their own culture, Arab dominated parties would be putting women into the Knesset. Arab dominated parties do not put forward female candidates.
bluestarpr.com/000079.php

As for “Ten Arabs and 16 women serve in Israel’s parliament”, there can be diversity without making a difference. 10 Arabs + 16 women = 26. How many members are in the Knesset?
bluestarpr.com/000098.php

That appears to be true. Having more than one fifth in Knesset as Arab when they are only ten percent of the population is good.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Bears no fruit huh?

Excerpts from Romans 10

Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. …

…“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

So at the time of the Apostles, some of Israel listened, most did not. For however long the Lord takes to come back, you should see this happening in every generation, that is some of Israel calling on the name of the Lord, Jesus, and most not doing so. But they can’t call on that name if we deem witnessing to them “fruitless”.

exactly how many in modern Isreal believe that Jesus is the Messiah and follow him?

Where exactly is the Messiah’s throne in modern isreal?

Do you believe in two gospels, one for Jewish people and one for gentiles? Or do you agree that both Jewish people and Gentiles are under the new covenant?

BTW, ** why is the animal sacraifices reinstuted when Jesus is our final atonement?**

 

[Lev23]

It is also my impression that Isreal would not be secular, but would be following the Messiah which modern Isreal does NOT, thus modern Isreal fails at being a fulfillment of prophecy on that account.

God dispersed them from the land in unbelief and has brung them back in unbelief. The scriptures foretell this. And God did this not because they deserve it, but for his own name’s sake. Did Israel and the world deserve God sending his only Son Jesus for us? But yet, God said he would and did it. ALL praise goes to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! And the world always had a problem with God and what he says he will do. That is why he will gather all nations and judge them for what they did to his people and how they divided his land.

So lets quit this childish rant how regathered Israel is not 100% saved. What other nation in this world has made the best out of the Gospel of Christ? For Jews and Gentiles, the only choice for life is to be in the Church both made into a new man, no difference between them. Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. And like Paul said, there is a believing remnant of Israel saved right now in the Church. Now outside the Church of God there are Jews and Gentiles. The difference between Israel and the rest of the nations is that prophecy foretells that Israel will be fully restored and will be the head among nations when the Messiah comes back while all other nations will be judged for its treatment of Israel. And hey, these are not my words, but are found all over scripture, so don’t call me a liar.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

**What is Christian Zionism…? And what has it got to do with returning of the Messiah the Christ….?
I thought Zionism was like any other political manifestations likes of Communism, liberalism and all the other isms.
In my very limited knowledge and basic common sense, I thought Zionism was a political movement that supported creation of Jewish state in Palestine as outlined by it’s founder Theodor Herzl in the late nineteenth century…!!! Am I wrong here…?

And do the Jews themselves accept Jesus…? revere him or hold in the highest regard? Is there something I don’t know you know and would like to share…? **

Briefly stated, Christian Zionism is a movement within Protestant fundamentalism that sees the modern state of Israel as the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy and thus deserving of political, financial and religious support. Christian Zionists work closely with the Israeli government, religious and secular Jewish Zionist organizations, and are particularly empowered during periods when the more conservative Likud Party is in control of the Knesset. Both the secular and religious media place Christian Zionism in the Protestant evangelical movement, which claims upward of 100-125 million members in the US. However, one would more accurately categorize it as part of the fundamentalist wing of Protestant Christianity, since the evangelical movement is far larger and more diverse in its theology and historical development.

Christian Zionism grew out of a particular theological system called “premillennial dispensationalism,”
informationclearinghouse.info/article4930.htm

christian Zionism Exposed
A Biblical rebuttal of the ‘doctrine’ of christian Zionism
christianzionismexposed.blogspot.com/

Charles Ryrie insists the sine qua non of Dispensationalism to be:

1. A dispensationalist keeps Israel and the Church distinct…
2. This distinction between Israel and the church is born out of a system of hermeneutics that is usually called literal interpretation…
3. A third aspect… concerns the underlying purpose of God in the world… namely, the glory of God… To the normative dispensationalist, the soteriological, or saving, program of God is not the only program but one of the means God is using in the total program of glorifying Himself.[3]]

informationclearinghouse.info/article4531.htm

zionism-israel.com/christian_zionism/Christian_Zionism_history.html

counterpunch.org/leupp05072005.html

google.com/search?hl=en&q=christian+zionism+fulfillment+prophecy

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

God dispersed them from the land in unbelief and has brung them back in unbelief. The scriptures foretell this. And God did this not because they deserve it, but for his own name’s sake. Did Israel and the world deserve God sending his only Son Jesus for us? But yet, God said he would and did it. ALL praise goes to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! And the world always had a problem with God and what he says he will do. That is why he will gather all nations and judge them for what they did to his people and how they divided his land.

So lets quit this childish rant how regathered Israel is not 100% saved. What other nation in this world has made the best out of the Gospel of Christ? For Jews and Gentiles, the only choice for life is to be in the Church both made into a new man, no difference between them. Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. And like Paul said, there is a believing remnant of Israel saved right now in the Church. Now outside the Church of God there are Jews and Gentiles. The difference between Israel and the rest of the nations is that prophecy foretells that Israel will be fully restored and will be the head among nations when the Messiah comes back while all other nations will be judged for its treatment of Israel. And hey, these are not my words, but are found all over scripture, so don’t call me a liar.

Maybe I am misreading the scriptures, where does it say God will return them in unbelief? As I understand, they are to be returning believing in the Messiah. I honestly, do not see a gradual restoration, I see a quick sudden restroration. So, from what scriptures do you get a gradual restoration of Isreal?

 

[Lev23]

If modern Isreal is a fulfillment of prophecy then why are they still denying that Jesus is the Messiah?

Do not the scriptures teach that they will believe in Jesus as the Messiah when God regathers Isreal?

Why are there Jews in other lands still? Does not the scriptures teach that All Isreal would return to the land? Not just some?

What are all the scriptures related to the Jewish peoples returning to the land of Isreal?

Again, childish questions.

Ezekiels dry bones vision and other prophecies does not call for this triumphant full restoration back into the land like you claim must happen.

Like I said, God dispersed them from their land. Lets see what happened to them the last 1900 years. In short, some of Israel became Godless and put their trust in worldy things, some blinded themselves even more by their own religious traditions, and some read their scriptures, believed them and accepted the testimony of Jesus, thus entering the Church of God.

So we see Israel made choices in the dispersion.

Now lets see what decisions the world made concerning Israel.

The Romans were the ones to disperse them.

The Muslims and Crusaders never welcomed back the nation of Israel in full back into their land. Same with the rest who held the land. Then there were inquistions, the Nazi holocausts, and the countless of other acts of hate upon the Jews over the years Etc, Etc

So how can you say that Israel must be like it was in the Old testament when God brings them back out of the nations 1900 years later after all that happened to them or the choices they made.

As for your wonderment why are there still Jews out in the world. Has Jesus come back yet? Will this not happen when he comes back?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

God dispersed them from the land in unbelief and has brung them back in unbelief. The scriptures foretell this. And God did this not because they deserve it, but for his own name’s sake. Did Israel and the world deserve God sending his only Son Jesus for us? But yet, God said he would and did it. ALL praise goes to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob! And the world always had a problem with God and what he says he will do. That is why he will gather all nations and judge them for what they did to his people and how they divided his land.

So lets quit this childish rant how regathered Israel is not 100% saved. What other nation in this world has made the best out of the Gospel of Christ? For Jews and Gentiles, the only choice for life is to be in the Church both made into a new man, no difference between them. Jesus is the way, the truth, the life. And like Paul said, there is a believing remnant of Israel saved right now in the Church. Now outside the Church of God there are Jews and Gentiles. The difference between Israel and the rest of the nations is that prophecy foretells that Israel will be fully restored and will be the head among nations when the Messiah comes back while all other nations will be judged for its treatment of Israel. And hey, these are not my words, but are found all over scripture, so don’t call me a liar.

“Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: and I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and **one king shall be king to them all…And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: **they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them…and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.” Ezek. 37:21-26

In that part, I see 100 percent belief in the Messiah for Isreal to be a fulfillment of prophecy.

I invite you to open all the scriptures you can find on the restoration of Isreal and pay close attention of their relationship with Jesus the Messiah.

Please list any and all I will miss.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

THE CHURCH IS ISRAEL, NOW

SECTION 1

OLD TESTAMENT TITLES AND ATTRIBUTES OF ISRAEL WHICH ARE,
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT, REFERRED TO THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH

THE BELOVED OF GOD
A. Israel Is Beloved Of God
Exo. 15:13 / Deu.33:3 / Ezr.3:11
B. Disobedient Israel Is Not Beloved Of God
Lev. 26:28. 30 / Jer. 12:8 / Jer. 16:5 / Hos. 9:l5 / Amo. 9:7 / Mat. 3:7 / Philip. 3:2 /
1 Th. 2:14-16 / Tit. 1:10
C. The Christians Are Beloved Of God
Rom. 1:7,9,25 / Eph. 5:1 / Col. 3:12 / Jo. 3:1 / 2 The. 2:13 / Rev. 1:4-6
THE CHILDREN OF GOD
A. lsraelites Are The Children Of God
Exo. 4:22 / Den. 14:1 / Isa. 1:2,4 / Isa. 63:8 / Jer. 31:9 / Hos. 11:1
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of God
Deu. 32:5 / John 8:39, 42, 44
C. The Christians Are The Children Of God
John. 1:12, 11:52 / Rom. 8:14,16 / 2 Cor. 6:18 / Gal. 3:26 / Gal. 4:5, 6, 7 /
Philip. 2:15 / 1 Jo. 3:1

THE FIELD OF GOD
A. Israel Is The Field Of God
Jer. 12:10
B. The Christians Are The Field Of God
I Cor. 3:9

THE FLOCK OF GOD AND OF THE MESSIAH
A. Israel Is The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah
Psa.78:52 / Psa.80:1 / Isa.40:ll / Jer.23:1, 2 ,3 / Jer.31:I0 / Eze. 34:12, 15, 16 /
Mic. 5:4 / Zec. 10:3
B. The Christians Are The Flock Of God And Of The Messiah
John 10:14, 16 / Heb. 13:20 / 1 Pe. 2:25 / 1 Pe. 5:2, 3

THE HOUSE OF GOD
A. Israel Is The House Of God
Num. 12:7
B. The Christians Are The House Of God
I Tim. 3:15 / Heb. 3:2, 5, 6 / Heb. 10:21 / 1 Pe. 4:17

THE CHOSEN PEOPLE
A. The Israelites Are The Chosen People
Deu. 7:7 / Deu. 10:15 / Deu. 14:2 /Isa. 43:20, 21
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Chosen People
Deu. 31:17 / 2 Ki. 17:20 / 2 Chr. 25:7 / Psa. 78:59 / Jer. 6:30 / Jer. 7:29 / Jer. 14:10
C. The Christians Are The Chosen People
Col. 3:12 / 1 Pe. 2:9

THE CIRCUMCISED
A. The Israelites Are The Circumcised
Gen. 17:10, 13 / Jdg. 15:18
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Circumcised
Jer. 9:25. 26 / Rom. 2:25,28 / Philip. 3:2
C. The Christians Are The Circumcised
Rom. 2:29 / Philip. 3:3 / Col. 2:11

ISRAEL
A. Israel Is Israel
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites
Num. 15:30, 31 / Deu. 18:19 / Acts 3:23 / Rom,. 9:6
C. The Christians Are Israel
John 11:50, 51, 52 / 1 Cor. 10:1 / Gal. 5:6; 6:15, 16 / Eph. 2:12,19

JERUSALEM
A. Jerusalem IsThe City And Mother of Israelites
Psa. 149:2 / Isa. 12:6 / Isa. 49:18, 20, 22 / Isa. 51:18 / Lam. 4:2
B. Jerusalem Is The City And Mother Of Christians
Gal. 4:26 / Heb. 12:22

THE JEWS
A. Israelites Are Jews
Ezr. 5:1 / Jer. 34:8, 9 / Zec. 8:22, 23
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews
Rom. 2:28 / Rev. 2:9 / Rev 3:9
C. Christians Are True Jews
Rom. 2:29

THE NEW COVENANT
A. The New Covenant Is With Israel
Jer. 31:31, 33
B. The New Covenant Is With The Christians
Luke 22:20 / 1 Cor. 11:25 / 2 Cor. 3:6 / Heb. 8:6, 8, 10

AN OLIVE TREE
A. Israel Is An Olive Tree
Jer. 11:16 / Hos. 14:6
B. The Christians Are An Olive Tree
Rom. 11:24

THE KINGDOM OF GOD
A. Israel Is The Kingdom Of God
Exo. 19:6 1 Chr. 17:14/ 1 Chr. 28:5
B. Disobedient Israel Is Not The Kingdom O fGod
Mat 8:11, 12 / Mat 21:43
C. The Christians Are The kingdoni Of God
Rom. 14:17 / 1 Cor. 4:20 / Col. 1:13 / Col. 4:11 / Rev. 1:6

THE PEOPLE OF GOD
A. The Israelites Are The People Of God
Exo. 6:7 / Deu. 27:9 / 2 Sam. 7:23 / Jer. 11:4
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The People Of God
Hos. 1:9 / Jer.5:10
C. The Christians Are The People Of God
Rom. 9:25 / 2 Cor. 6:16 / Eph. 4:12 / Eph. 5:3 / 2Th. 1:10 / Tit. 2:14

THE PRIESTS OF GOD
A. The Israelites Are The Priests Of God
Exo. 19:6
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Priests Of God
1 Sam. 2:28,30 / Lam. 4:13, 16 / Eze. 44:10, 13 / Hos 4.6 / Mal.2:2,4, 8 ,9
C. The Christians Are The Priests Of God
1 Pe. 2:5,9 / Rev. 1:6 / Rev. 5:10

THE VINEYARD OF GOD
A. The Israelites Is The Vineyard Of God
Isa. 5:3,4, 5, 7 /Jer. 12:10
B. The Christians Are The Vineyard Of God
Luke 20:16

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

THE WIFE (OR BRIDE) OF GOD
A. Israel Is The Wife (Or Bride) Of God
Isa. 54:5, 6 / Jer. 2:2 / Eze. 16:32 / Hos. 1:2
B. Disobedient Israel Is Not The Wife (Or Bride) Of God
Jer. 3:8 / Hos. 2:2
C. The Christians Are The Wife (Or Bride) Of God
2 Cor. 1l:2 / Eph.5:31, 32

THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM
A. The Israelites Are The Children Of Abraham
2 Chr. 20:7 / Psa. 105:6 / Isa. 41:8
B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of Abraham
John 8:39 / Rom,. 9:6, 7 / Gal. 4:25, 30
C. The Christians Are The Children Of Abraham
Rom. 4:11, 16 / Gal. 3:7, 29 / Gal. 4:23, 28, 31

SECTION 2

OLD TESTAMENT VERSES REFERRING TO ISRAEL WHICH ARE QUOTED
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AS REFERRING TO THE CHRISTIANS

QUOTE # 1: Lev. 26:11 / Eze. 37:27 / 2 Cor. 6:16
QUOTE # 2: Deu. 30:12-14 / Rom. 10:6-8
QUOTE # 3: Deu. 31:6 / Heb. 13:5
QUOTE # 4: Deu. 32:36 / Psa. 135:14 / Heb. 10:30
QUOTE # 5: Psa. 22:22 / Heb. 2:12
QUOTE # 6: Psa. 44:22 / Rom. 8:36
QUOTE # 7: Psa. 95:7-11 / Heb. 3:7-11
QUOTE # 8: Psa. 130:8 / Tit. 2:14
QUOTE # 9: Isa. 28:16 / Rom. 10:11 / Eph. 2:20 / 1 Pe. 2:6
QUOTE # 10: Isa. 49:8 / 2 Cor. 6:2
QUOTE # 11: Isa. 52:7 / Rom. 10:15
QUOTE # 12: Isa. 54:1 / Gal. 4:27
QUOTE # 13: Jer. 31:31-34 / Heb. 8:8-12
QUOTE # 14: Hos. 1:10; 2:23 / Rom. 9:25-26 / 1 Pe. 2:10
QUOTE # 15: Hos. 13:14 / 1 Cor. 15:55
QUOTE # 16: Joel 2:32 / Rom. 10:13
SECTION 3

OLD TESTAMENT ETHICAL COMMANDS TO ISRAEL WHICH ARE QUOTED
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AS APPLYING TO THE CHURCH

QUOTE #1: Exd.16:18 / 2Cor.8:15
QUOTE #2: Lev. 11:45; 19:2 / 1 Pe. 1:16
QUOTE #3: Deu. 5:16 / Eph. 6:2-3
QUOTE #4: Deu. 17:7; 19:19; 22:24; 24:7 / 1 Cor. 5:13
QUOTE #5: Deu. 19:15 / 2 Cor. 13:1 / 1 Tim. 5:19
QUOTE #6: Isa. 35:3 / Heb. 12:12
QUOTE #7: Isa. 48:20; 52:11 / 2 Cor. 6:17

incolor.inebraska.com/stuart/israel.htm

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Lev23, it looks like you have your work cut out for you. In the last two posts, I posted the outline for the claim that the church is Isreal now, how would you refute it? A similiar outline showing the differences would be nice, if you are aware of one. Please consider that a side issue.

The major issue as I see it, is the role of the Messiah in the restoration of Isreal. Please post the scriptures you see that speak of the restoration of Isreal as it relates to the Messiah.

I must confess, I am a babe when it comes to second coming theology. And, as I look at dispensationalism, partial preteristism seems to fit the data better.

CHAPTER 16
Warning that the end is at hand

1 “Watch” over your life: “let your lamps” be not quenched “and your loins” be not ungirded, but be “ready,” for ye know not “the hour in which our Lord cometh.” 2 But be frequently gathered together seeking the things which are profitable for your souls, for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you except ye be found perfect at the last time; 3 for in the last days the false prophets and the corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate; 4 for as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray, and then shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began.

5 Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and “many shall be offended” and be lost, but “they who endure” in their faith “shall be saved” by the curse itself. 6 And “then shall appear the signs” of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead: 7 but not of all the dead, but as it was said, “The Lord shall come and all his saints with him.” 8 Then shall the world “see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven.”

earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html

 

[Lev23]

Maybe I am misreading the scriptures, where does it say God will return them in unbelief? As I understand, they are to be returning believing in the Messiah. I honestly, do not see a gradual restoration, I see a quick sudden restroration. So, from what scriptures do you get a gradual restoration of Isreal?

AAaaaaaGian!

For instance, read Ezekial 36:16-32

God states how bad they were in the land and how bad they were defiling his Holy name outside the land. Then he says he will do all these things for Israel NOT BECAUSE OF THEM, BUT BECAUSE FOR HIS NAME’S SAKE!

Then he says the nations will know he is the Lord when he does all these things stated in the scripture I listed, and so will Israel.

So it makes sense that this restoration will take time, because right now neither Israel nor any of the nations know the God of Israel and his Holy Name and what he has done.

God is doing this, they don’t recognize that fact, but they will when Messiah comes. Oh boy will they!

 

[Lev23]

Thank you for listing those scriptures Daniel Marsh.

Now you look at those and explain to me why there is a remnant of Israel saved by Grace, in the Church of God right now?

Was the Church ever given a land? Did the Church ever profane God’s Holy Name while in that land? Was the Church ever dispersed for defiling God’s Holy name? Was the Church ever promised they will be brought back into some land? No, the Church of God , made up of both Jews and Gentiles made into one new man, has gotten what they didn’t deserve, the Messiah, Jesus Christ. The Jews and Gentiles outside the Church need Jesus to to be saved from their sins.

BUT there are hundreds of prophecies saying Israel will be fully restored, by God, by the coming of their Messiah, who we know is Jesus Christ. The gentile nations do not have this promise. But individually they can and should accept Jesus.

 

[bengal_fan]

BUT there are hundreds of prophecies saying Israel will be fully restored, by God, by the coming of their Messiah, who we know is Jesus Christ. The gentile nations do not have this promise. But individually they can and should accept Jesus.

right, so when Jesus comes back, He will fully restore Israel. The U.S. won’t do it. the U.N. won’t do it. Israel can’t do it on it’s own. Jesus, the Messiah, will restore Israel. this is why zionism is wrong and Christian zionism is even more wrong. we know the name of the Messiah and yet we still don’t trust Him to fulfill His promises. we think we have to do it for Him. and in the process of “doing it for Him” we displace hundreds and thousands of people that He loves (even many who are His actual followers and are being betrayed by the church not supporting them, which is one of the biggest commands Jesus gave us… to love each other). suffering can definitely be good for us, so those palestinian Christians who are suffering are experiencing God in ways that we don’t get to, but when Christians are participating in the suffering of others, especially other Christians, i think God is going to have some harsh words for those people.

 

[AbeOman]

right, so when Jesus comes back, He will fully restore Israel. The U.S. won’t do it. the U.N. won’t do it. Israel can’t do it on it’s own. Jesus, the Messiah, will restore Israel. this is why zionism is wrong and Christian zionism is even more wrong. we know the name of the Messiah and yet we still don’t trust Him to fulfill His promises. we think we have to do it for Him. and in the process of “doing it for Him” we displace hundreds and thousands of people that He loves (even many who are His actual followers and are being betrayed by the church not supporting them, which is one of the biggest commands Jesus gave us… to love each other). suffering can definitely be good for us, so those palestinian Christians who are suffering are experiencing God in ways that we don’t get to, but when Christians are participating in the suffering of others, especially other Christians, i think God is going to have some harsh words for those people.

**Do the Jews believe in the Messiah…? Do they respect him…? do the revere or venerate him…? what do they thing him…? do they reject him outright as the Messiah or they least accept him…?

Now, can someone tell me were we are going with this…?**

 

[bengal_fan]

**Do the Jews believe in the Messiah…? Do they respect him…? do the revere or venerate him…? what do they thing him…? do they reject him outright as the Messiah or they least accept him…?

Now, can someone tell me were we are going with this…?**

no, they don’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but i would argue that if they don’t believe in “a Messiah” then they aren’t true to their own faith and it becomes more about a race of people wanting to separate themselves from the world. the Jewish people who do still believe a Messiah is coming (the Orthodox) are against the establishment of a state of Israel by anyone other than the Messiah. that is where we are going with this. if Israel is just another secular state, Christians shouldn’t support them over another state because “Gawd commands it”. God commands us to follow Him and when He returns and truly re-establishes Israel, then we should support them.

 

[Valke2]

no, they don’t believe in Jesus as the Messiah, but i would argue that if they don’t believe in “a Messiah” then they aren’t true to their own faith and it becomes more about a race of people wanting to separate themselves from the world. the Jewish people who do still believe a Messiah is coming (the Orthodox) are against the establishment of a state of Israel by anyone other than the Messiah. that is where we are going with this. if Israel is just another secular state, Christians shouldn’t support them over another state because “Gawd commands it”. God commands us to follow Him and when He returns and truly re-establishes Israel, then we should support them.

Most orthodox Jews support Israel (and live there). Most Jews believe the Moshiach will come and in fact that is one of our 13 principles of faith which we recite each day (as set forth by Rambam).

 

[hamba2han]

The Qur’an states that the Children of Israel were indeed the ‘chosen people’.

002.047
Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message).

The Bible, on the other hand, states that there are actually conditions attached to the covenant given to the Jews.

Exodus
19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

If Jews do not keep the covenant and make Israel into a “kingdom of priests and an holy nation”, then the punishment for the Jews is also stipulated in the Bible:

Leviticus
26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
…
26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
…
26:28 then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.

And a warning is given to the Jews:

Deuteronomy
28:68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.

Is there then hope for Israel according to the Bible?

Isaiah
19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
19:25 whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

In other words, Jews cannot continue to see themselves as the ‘chosen people’ and Israel as the most favored nation in the eyes of the Creator because this view is simply not supported in the Bible.

 

[Montalban]

Most orthodox Jews support Israel (and live there). Most Jews believe the Moshiach will come and in fact that is one of our 13 principles of faith which we recite each day (as set forth by Rambam).

Rambam?

 

[Valke2]

Maimonides - famous jewish philosopher. 12 th century. Wrote the “Guide for the Perplexed”

 

[Lev23]

boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007/10/28/tutu_urges_jews_to_challenge_oppression_of_palestinians/

In a lengthy and emotional address to a packed Old South Church, where the faint din of pro-Israel protesters could be heard through the stone walls, Tutu cited passages from the Hebrew Bible to argue that the God worshiped by Jews would champion the cause of Palestinians.

“Remembering what happened to you in Egypt and much more recently in Germany - remember, and act appropriately,” he said, alluding to the enslavement of Jews in Egypt described in the book of Exodus, as well as to the Nazi Holocaust. “If you reject your calling, you may survive for a long time, but you will find it is all corrosive inside, and one day you will implode.”

His remarks, to a congregation of about 850, created controversy even before they were delivered. A wide array of Jewish community leaders and organizations **denounced Sabeel, the Palestinian Christian organization **that put together the conference at which Tutu spoke, as anti-Israel, and rued Tutu’s support of the group.

Israel: Time to Divest by Desmond Tutu

Divesting from Israel is divesting from the same scripture Desmond Tutu read. Desmond Tutu is now trying to convince Israel they are not the people brought back out of the nations by God, an in turn is helping the world and Islam in trying to destroy Israel. Wheter he thinks he is or not. Comparing what happened in South Africa to this prophectic event in the Holy Land is madness. And meanwhile, the vultures circle the nation.

By using this “divesture” technique, Bishop Tutu is sending a message to Israel that they should heed the worlds warning and do things their way to avoid punishment from the world, in this case financially. He says this instead of proving to the world and Israel that from scripture that the one true God brought them back out of the nations.

I heard that one Christmas Eve celebration in Bethelem, Bishop Tutu and Bishop Samir Kafity stood in front of some 8000 Palestineans who were chanting a different song from what the Angels sang “Peace on Earth”-
“PLO-ANC!–ISRAEL NO!–ANC-PLO!”
Why was this the Christmas story coming from there under the guidence of these 2 Bishops? Don’t these Bishops know that the PLO charter calls for the elimination of Israel? The PLO Charter says Israel is the instrument of Zionism. So eliminiate Zionism there is to eliminate Israel.

PLO charter Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.

Now read this lie in the making-
PLO charter Article 16: The liberation of Palestine, from a spiritual point of view, will provide the Holy Land with an atmosphere of safety and tranquility, which in turn will safeguard the country’s religious sanctuaries and guarantee freedom of worship and of visit to all, without discrimination of race, color, language, or religion. Accordingly, the people of Palestine look to all spiritual forces in the world for support.

Do you know how many Jewish synagogues were torched and Holy sites desecrated under Jordanian/Palestinean control?