What do you think about guitars during mass?

[JReducation]

Beautifully explained.

I know that this is off topic and I apologize to the thread moderator and others. But I have to comment at the great joy that I feel when I see your signataure, Sarabande. My religious community works almost exclusively with Respect Life Ministry. Every other work that we do is to make enough money to put into our Respect Life Centers. I am alway deeply moved when I see someone is carrying another human being. It is the most loving, the most peaceful and the most divine action that any human being can do.

I know that economic times are rough and that we have no idea of what the future holds; but that’s the beauty of your faith. Like Mary, you have allowed for incarnation to take place in the midst of uncertainty. I’m reminded of Mary’s question to the angel, “How is this to happen, since I do not know man?” She too was uncertain. We are all uncertain about so many things. Therefore, couples who keep their children are making that leep in faith with Mary. “Behold the servant of the Lord. Be it done to me according to your word.”

I’m so happy for you. I have cancer and I don’t know how much longer I’ll be around. But I will offer nine days of my pain for each of your nine months of pregancy that God may bless you for your faith.

Now bring out the organs and guitars and play music for the Lord.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Guitar]

Even after these 38 pages I am still unconvinced of the sacral nature of the guitar for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. What the proponents of guitar music seem to forget is that the organ holds pride of place in the Church’s liturgical life. Guitars, for me, are more along the lines of secular pop/folk music. A lot of the songs pushed by OCP and GIA are more along the lines of bad pop music than genuine sacred music, especially the tripe from Spirit and Song.

We need to recapture the sense of beauty, the sense of the sacred and the sense of majesty in the Mass. The guitar just does not cut it. I have heard enough bad guitar music in my brief time on this planet to know that it is just not fitting.

I realize that this sounds harsh, but, the strumming and the picking are more in line with Woodstock than with the Mass.

I have no doubt you have heard plenty of bad guitar music - or more accurately, bad performances involving a guitar. I have, too.

Giving something pride of place does not mean removing all other things from the picture. You may give organ pride of place till you are blue in the face, it will make no practical difference if one does not have the funds to procure or maintain an organ or anyone capable of driving it. There are many people here arguing against the exclusion of guitar who make it quite clear that they have not at all forgetten about organ and chant having pride of place, and to say otherwise is ignoring what is written and putting thoughts into some people’s heads.

Guitars for you obviously have those associations just as organ and chant have unhelpful associations for Cat. If you believe guitar = Woodstock, then that is of course the way it is for you, but you have a very narrow experience of guitar music and usage. I have different associations and so do others. Coming from an early music background where lute or period guitar is a legitimate and authentic continuo instrument often used in conjunction with a bass string instrument, I see no issue at all in accompanying much traditional music continuo-fashion. (Chorales, for example, were frequently sung from figured bass editions with lute accompaniment.) I do it quite successfully and have been complimented over the years by “trad” choir directors, priests from the cathedral and also by some respected professional musicians and singers that I’ve had the good fortune to work with.

It is not at all logical to say that guitar does not cut it on the basis that you have heard enough bad guitar music to prove this. I promise you I have heard as much bad organ playing and excruciating choral singing as you have heard bad guitar music. This does not prove that organs and choirs don’t cut it. You frequently mention strumming and picking as if this is all the guitar can be used for and it has been pointed out nearly as frequently that this is untrue. And I return to the example I keep repeating - on the basis of “I’ve heard this done badly and inappropriately therefore it is not possible for it to be done well and appropriately” then I will prove to you that violins, trumpets, recorders and oboes are unplayable and that Nessun Dorma cannot be sung by a tenor.

Note: Guitar plays organ as well as guitar. Guitar frequently finds herself in situations where there is no organ or it is so badly maintained or such an apology for an instrument or so inadequent for the required task that the best way of offering the musical best is to leave it rest in peace and to field an instrumental ensemble instead. “Pride of place” has a number of implicit “riders” - it is clearly not intended to mandate the bad music resulting from bad or unusable organs or incompetent “organists” over good music produced by viable and high-quality alternatives.

 

[ac_claire]

What exactly does “pride of place” mean…anybody know?

 

[JReducation]

What exactly does “pride of place” mean…anybody know?

First place or preference.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cat]

I have no doubt you have heard plenty of bad guitar music - or more accurately, bad performances involving a guitar. I have, too.

Giving something pride of place does not mean removing all other things from the picture. You may give organ pride of place till you are blue in the face, it will make no practical difference if one does not have the funds to procure or maintain an organ or anyone capable of driving it. There are many people here arguing against the exclusion of guitar who make it quite clear that they have not at all forgetten about organ and chant having pride of place, and to say otherwise is ignoring what is written and putting thoughts into some people’s heads.

Guitars for you obviously have those associations just as organ and chant have unhelpful associations for Cat. If you believe guitar = Woodstock, then that is of course the way it is for you, but you have a very narrow experience of guitar music and usage. I have different associations and so do others. Coming from an early music background where lute or period guitar is a legitimate and authentic continuo instrument often used in conjunction with a bass string instrument, I see no issue at all in accompanying much traditional music continuo-fashion. (Chorales, for example, were frequently sung from figured bass editions with lute accompaniment.) I do it quite successfully and have been complimented over the years by “trad” choir directors, priests from the cathedral and also by some respected professional musicians and singers that I’ve had the good fortune to work with.

It is not at all logical to say that guitar does not cut it on the basis that you have heard enough bad guitar music to prove this. I promise you I have heard as much bad organ playing and excruciating choral singing as you have heard bad guitar music. This does not prove that organs and choirs don’t cut it. You frequently mention strumming and picking as if this is all the guitar can be used for and it has been pointed out nearly as frequently that this is untrue. And I return to the example I keep repeating - on the basis of “I’ve heard this done badly and inappropriately therefore it is not possible for it to be done well and appropriately” then I will prove to you that violins, trumpets, recorders and oboes are unplayable and that Nessun Dorma cannot be sung by a tenor.

Note: Guitar plays organ as well as guitar. Guitar frequently finds herself in situations where there is no organ or it is so badly maintained or such an apology for an instrument or so inadequent for the required task that the best way of offering the musical best is to leave it rest in peace and to field an instrumental ensemble instead. “Pride of place” has a number of implicit “riders” - it is clearly not intended to mandate the bad music resulting from bad or unusable organs or incompetent “organists” over good music produced by viable and high-quality alternatives.

Excellent. Ditto much of the above for piano.

 

[pnewton]

First place or preference.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

What exactly does “pride of place” mean…anybody know?

I don’t know. If first place was what was intended, there are far more accurate words for that, like “first place” or “first preference.” Likewise, words like “primary” and “primacy” convey an ordinal sense. THe term chosen in all the past two documents avoid such regulatory words and opt for a more emotional term. I would say that the literal meaning is best, that the organ should always be a part of our liturgy that we take pride in. Organ music is part of our heritage that should be held up with pride. Beyond that, speculation will only go beyond that.

 

[Bluegoat]

I don’t know. If first place was what was intended, there are far more accurate words for that, like “first place” or “first preference.” Likewise, words like “primary” and “primacy” convey an ordinal sense. THe term chosen in all the past two documents avoid such regulatory words and opt for a more emotional term. I would say that the literal meaning is best, that the organ should always be a part of our liturgy that we take pride in. Organ music is part of our heritage that should be held up with pride. Beyond that, speculation will only go beyond that.

It’s a pretty clear term, it means the most important spot. Like where you would sit the Queen at a dinner gathering.

 

[pnewton]

It’s a pretty clear term, it means the most important spot. Like where you would sit the Queen at a dinner gathering.

All of my children have a place of pride in my heart. Not one is the most important. See, you say the term is clear, yet I do not agree with the way you have defined it. What is clear about that?

 

[agapewolf]

It’s a pretty clear term, it means the most important spot. Like where you would sit the Queen at a dinner gathering.

If this is true, then we shouldn’t be using it often. It should be only on special occasions and rarely done “normally”.

 

[benedictgal]

If this is true, then we shouldn’t be using it often. It should be only on special occasions and rarely done “normally”.

Pride of place means that it is the one that should be the default, and, not the option. It is pre-eminent.

 

[agapewolf]

Pride of place means that it is the one that should be the default, and, not the option. It is pre-eminent.

I was responding to someone else, taking their definition, hence my saying “if this is true”

 

[pnewton]

Pride of place means that it is the one that should be the default, and, not the option. It is pre-eminent.

“Pre-eminent.” That was the other word I was thinking of that could have been used (but was not).

 

[Binary]

I have to say that during mass, I don’t think about guitars at all.

 

[ecce_ego]

I am a big fan of the organ. I feel this is a very good way to celebrate the mass. I wish the organist at my Church would play it more instead of the piano.

What do you think about pianos, guitars, and etc. in place of the organ?

Could anyone see these instruments as dangerous?

Some opinions that I have heard is that the guitar symbolizes a sinful musical genre (rock-and-roll) and the instrument is simply not reverent enough. I personally cannot see any problem with using these for worship as long as the tabernacle is not in the same room!!!

God Bless

I love guitar music and worship music that uses the guitar, but I have found that it should NOT be used at mass, because

1. In my parish and most I’ve been to, the ‘guitarist’ is someone who really can’t play well, and ends up being a distraction.
2. They turn the guitar volume up way too much, and it glares above the singing.
3. Organs and chant just sound nice and promote a worshipful atmosphere, whereas guitar music usually tries to sound like a rock concert. Good classical guitar would be great, but good luck finding someone who can play that.

 

[cosfini05]

While I do not totally agree with Benedictgal on the use of guitar at mass, I believe she is correct about the organ being the “default” instrument. I think what is meant by this is that if the parish has the means (money, space, etc.) to provide the parish with an organ, it should be provided.

I think it is very important (not the most important, but very important…obviously, Jesus is the reason), when designing a Catholic church, that space is provided to accomodate the use of the organ. I also realize that parish priests need to be practical with the use of the resources. They know who their parishioners are, what they need best, and what they can accomplish together on their road to salvation.

I want to be clear: I am not against the organ, nor am I against the usage of guitar. But I do agree with Benedictgal that the organ is the default instrument.

 

[cosfini05]

Ecce_ego,

I think that bad guitarists give the guitar a bad name. I don’t blame any instruments, just the musicians behind the instrument.

I do respect your opinion about how you feel about chant and organ. I want to share an experience I had in Mexico.

I was at a mass where the choir consisted of 2 female guitarists, and about 6 female vocalists. The guitarists used mostly arpeggios and some light strumming for the mass, very simple stuff. The people at the mass would sing along to the music, which was a bit comical to me at first, b/c the women sounded so beautiful, and the people were so off-key. As a second communion hymn, they played Nada te turbe (the prayer of St. Teresa of Avila). The guitars complimented the vocals with the arpeggios and light strumming, and the vocalists sung in a quiet volume. When they got to the section of SOLO DIOS BASTA…, I was in tears, by the beauty of the whole experience, praying ALONE GOD SUFFICETH. The people, who sang along with the choir, were completely off key (and trust me it was really bad), but it was the experience of the power of all singing together as a community in praise of God that really moved me to my very core. After the hymn, the people remained in silence on their knees, for roughly five minutes, which may not seem very long for most, but for me, it can be.

The mass was beautiful, done without organ or chant. It was prayerful, and the people could sing along with the music, even if they were off-key. The hymns used were mostly prayers of Saints, as well some very traditional hymns in Spanish (i.e., Altísimo Señor).

For this reason, I am not against the use of guitar at mass, because at this particular mass, it fostered a setting of reverence and holiness. The people sang as one for the glory of God.

You are right, that there are bad musicians out there, who may not be competent enough to play not just at mass, BUT ANYWHERE! If they would not be hired outside of the mass for their incapacity to play, why would they be allowed to play in the Church. I’m not trying to discourage people to play at mass, but they should be somewhat competent.

And yes, sometimes, the guitar is set too loud, and it is distracting. But any instrument who’s volume is too loud is distracting. Any instrument that does not complement the voices does a disservice to the community. That is why I mentioned earlier that even the organ can drown out the vocalists, because the organist wants to “perform.” That’s not right either and does a disservice to the people as well.

 

[Sarabande]

But any instrument who’s volume is too loud is distracting. Any instrument that does not complement the voices does a disservice to the community. That is why I mentioned earlier that even the organ can drown out the vocalists, because the organist wants to “perform.” That’s not right either and does a disservice to the people as well.

I just want to make a comment which not only applies to organists, but to any musician who works in the Church. Having worked with many, many organists at various churches, I have found that sometimes when the organist drowns out the congregation, the cantor or the choir, that may mean the organist doesn’t know the organ he/she is playing or even does not know how to play an organ well - not necessarily because they want to “perform”. Sometimes the priest wants it that way, too, believe it or not. OR it could even mean that the organ might have gone “temperamental” and started doing something totally strange and you really couldn’t do anything to fix it at the time. That does happen once in a while. I did a mass once where the organ decided to do its own thing and no matter what the organist did, it just got stuck on the same stops (hot/humid day and no air conditioning), so the sound was much louder than what that organist would played. That’s usually why substitute or outside organists and other instrumentalists and vocalists like to come to a church early to test out the organ and their instrument/voice in a room to see how it travels through the acoustics of the church. For instance, if the church has excellent acoustics and I’m in the loft or in a section of the church where the sound carriers really well, I won’t use a microphone. My voice would overpower the congregation too much as well as whatever instrument is playing along with me. My duty is to lead - not for my voice to overpower anyone or any instrument.

Once in a while it may be an ego trip, but you’ll find that many liturgical musicians are not being “loud” and “overpowering” because of the ego of wanting to perform. If you ask, you’ll more than likely discover, it might be one of the reasons above or even something else.

 

[Sarabande]

Good classical guitar would be great, but good luck finding someone who can play that.

I will be working with a classical guitarrist for an OF mass in which will be very traditional - Latin chant mass parts unaccompanied, Offertory and Communion music will also be in Latin, etc. The reason this is being done is because there is no working organ there and these very traditional priests still want good, traditional music, but done by trained musicians. I’m looking very forward to working with this guitarrist because I know he is classically trained, won’t be strumming, won’t be overpowering, will not be playing the music in a way to sound more like a secular piece of music which some guitarrists will do with traditional pieces of music, and will keep the reverence and beauty of the mass with the music he will be playing on his own and in leading me and the congregation.

But you are right, unfortunately, most of the guitarrists and guitar players I’ve experienced at mass have given the instrument a very bad name. I still believe the organ or the unaccompanied voice is ideal, but I don’t mind other instruments as long as it is done well and not evoking too much of the secular world. As JReducation said, it has to “connect with the Divine” and rising out of the “usual”.

 

[cosfini05]

Good point Sarabande. I did not think about that. Thanks for the post about the “performance” issues. I don’t know how to include quotes from previous posts.

 

[Guitar]

They turn the guitar volume up way too much, and it glares above the singing.

Some guitarists do this, yes. But - newsflash - so do some organists. Sometimes this is for the reasons Sarabande gives (and I as an organist have been in that position playing in unfamiliar churches for funerals starting shortly after the previous Mass with no time to settle in) however I’ve heard it from professional organists in high-profile churches who know their instrument and building very well. I remember one horrendous experience in London where a female cantor with an absolutely angelic voice was leading the congregation quite nicely thank you, and every time a people’s part or response came around the organist came crashing in with full diapason chorus plus mixtures. Even the cantor visibly flinched every time it happened.

Organists are subject to all the criticisms made here of guitarists. I’m always interested to note how some tolerate any slapdash or even excruciating performance from “organists” and “choirs” and suddenly notice (or even invent) plenty of faults in pianists and guitarists. Organists who play too loudly, make frequent mistakes, play pieces in styles that are not in good taste or do not work for a particular piece, who reduce music to basic chords plus a melody, who play everything on the same registration, who are on an ego trip and think they’re the start of the show and the liturgy is just a backdrop for their music … it all happens.

When the documents say the organ has pride of place, they are not saying that any old organ in any physical condition played any old how has pride of place. The ideal of church organ music - a quality, appropriate instrument played competently - is what has pride of place and what should be striven for. Arguments against guitar on the basis of bad playing are 1) actually arguing a completely different point and b) prove nothing in arguing this point, as there is as much bad music played on organ out there (whether due to poor instruments or poor players) as there is bad music on guitar. The organ that has pride of place is a concept that implies a lot of “givens” and people can be very quick to forget all about the “givens”.

(And I say “bad music played on guitar” because much of what people derisively call “guitar music” here is idiomatically piano music and not what a musician would call “guitar music”.)