What do you think about guitars during mass?

[Layman]

Layman, you didn’t answer my question. Have you tried it? Have you heard it?

Yes. It depends on the synth. You can get cheap-to-mid-range keyboards which have a short sound-sample gnat-f*rt reverbed and enchanced to fake an organ sound. They sound bad.

You have to get a decent module with a good sample range which sounds like an organ even when ‘dry’. Or these days, a sound bank run off a laptop. You also need to look at independent reviews before whipping out your wallet. Of all the modules, keyboards and pc-software available, there’s the best and there’s the rest. And maybe the best organ sound isn’t in the top-rated keyboard/software/module.

And then, when you’re all set up, keep it in the background at Mass. It’s an accompaniment to the choir, not an organ recital.

 

[Layman]

everyone is singing along, at the top of their lungs, from the bottom of their heart, hands outstretched, hands at your side, face to the sky, head bowed in awe, smile on your lips, tears on your cheeks, everyone worshiping the same God, no one embaaressed by anothers display because no one is paying attention to the others’ display, just you and Jesus and the song…

Err… that doesn’t sound like any Mass I’ve ever been to. It sounds indecently Protestant

 

[Guitar]

Yes. It depends on the synth. You can get cheap-to-mid-range keyboards which have a short sound-sample gnat-f*rt reverbed and enchanced to fake an organ sound. They sound bad.

You have to get a decent module with a good sample range which sounds like an organ even when ‘dry’. Or these days, a sound bank run off a laptop. You also need to look at independent reviews before whipping out your wallet. Of all the modules, keyboards and pc-software available, there’s the best and there’s the rest. And maybe the best organ sound isn’t in the top-rated keyboard/software/module.

And then, when you’re all set up, keep it in the background at Mass. It’s an accompaniment to the choir, not an organ recital.

Yes, exactly. I know this because I have been round that loop. To put the word “synthesiser” out there without adding all the qualifications that you’ve just added is to invite disaster. And frequently people with no musical background at all suggest organ sounds on keyboards, partly because of the organ-has-pride-of-place-no-matter-what-the-quality mentality I mentioned earlier i.e. forgetting all the riders implicit in the statement.

 

[MarysGirls]

Err… that doesn’t sound like any Mass I’ve ever been to. It sounds indecently Protestant

Hmm… Yes, I suppose it does, doesn’t it?

I’ve always felt that we could learn a thing or two from our Protestant brothers and sisters. But as long as you are worshiping the one true God with all of your heart, what does it matter?

 

[JReducation]

Excellent post, Guitar.

I think it’s ridiculous that we who do not play the pipe organ have to defend ourselves to Catholics when our bishops have given our priests full authority to allow piano, guitar, and other instruments in the Holy Mass–and that includes “strumming” guitar. .

Don’t sweat it too much. You only have to defend it on CAF, not in the real Church. The Church is much more gentle in her manner of leading people. She is not out to prove her point. She is not out to make people feel that their worship of God is inadequate. Nor is the Church out to suppress every instrument that is not an organ.

The goal and reason that these documents have been written is to protect the liturgy and the faithful from forms of music that are clearly for entertainment value. If we look at the message, what is being written is that we must present ourselves before God using music and instruments that raise man’s heart and mind to the Divine. The organ and chant have succeeded in doing this. Thus they have the place of honor in liturgical music.

On the other hand, the fact that organ and chant have the place of honor does not mean that there is no place for other forms of music and other instruments. This has never been said. In a previous post I spoke about our Poor Clares in South Africa and how they use indigenous instruments at their mass and liturgy of the hours. People find their life of prayer and liturgy to be such an inspiration that they come from miles around to pray with the nuns and celebrate mass with them. In fact, this one monastery has a very interesting custom. For certain holy days they wear a wrap, for lack of a better word, around their waste. It’s like a wrap around skirt. They put it on over the Franciscan habit. It’s very colorful. It’s part of the local custom to wear this for sacred occasions. Since the nuns are all indigenous, they bring these local customs into the religious life with them and they integrate them very well. It all serves to raise the mind, heart and voice to God.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[benedictgal]

I am all for guitars in the Mass! I don’t think, however that pop hyms should be all there is. I, for one, find it easier to worship in a more concert-like setting, but traditional chants are also beautiful. Why can’t we have both? It would certainly get the teens more into the Mass (which I find to be sad since they should be there no matter what the music is like).

But seriously, everyone worships differently. Why can’t we have a compromise? Why can’t people forget their differences in worship and realize their unity in the One they are worshiping?

However, the problem is that a lot of the modern compositions used for Mass really are not fitting. If you read through 48 or so pages in this thread, you will note that even the bishops have noted some problems with the music and these were listed by the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist. Pope Benedict, in response to these concerns, noted that certainly as far as the Mass is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Unfortunately, a lot of the questionable stuff was composed with only the guitar in mind.

The sad part in all of this is that the publishing houses continue to push bad music for the Mass. They also seem to compose music meant for only the guitar, so the publishers themselves, perpetuate all of this.

 

[JReducation]

However, the problem is that a lot of the modern compositions used for Mass really are not fitting. If you read through 48 or so pages in this thread, you will note that even the bishops have noted some problems with the music and these were listed by the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist. Pope Benedict, in response to these concerns, noted that certainly as far as the Mass is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Unfortunately, a lot of the questionable stuff was composed with only the guitar in mind.

The sad part in all of this is that the publishing houses continue to push bad music for the Mass. They also seem to compose music meant for only the guitar, so the publishers themselves, perpetuate all of this.

I don’t write music, play an instrument or even sing. I know nothing about music. I just enjoy it. But I have a question, which you may be able to answer. I bolded the part about which I’m asking. Do houses that publish religious music actually produce their own or is it like the secular music industry where someone walks in with a piece of music and they sell it to the house?

The reason I ask is because I’m wondering if there are any good composers out there who are composing music for the organ and the guitar and other instruments. I’m talking about good music that is obviously liturgical. I too have heard my fair share of horrible songs that are played on the guitar. But I don’t blame the musician playing it. I blame the writer and ask myself, “What was that person thinking?” LOL

Thanks for your response.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[PhanxicoXavier]

I don’t write music, play an instrument or even sing. I know nothing about music. I just enjoy it. But I have a question, which you may be able to answer. I bolded the part about which I’m asking. Do houses that publish religious music actually produce their own or is it like the secular music industry where someone walks in with a piece of music and they sell it to the house?
**
The reason I ask is because I’m wondering if there are any good composers out there who are composing music for the organ and the guitar and other instruments. I’m talking about good music that is obviously liturgical. I too have heard my fair share of horrible songs that are played on the guitar. But I don’t blame the musician playing it. I blame the writer and ask myself, “What was that person thinking?” LOL
**
Thanks for your response.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Brother,

There are a few composers at grass-roots level composing sacred music for the Catholic Church. The reason that there are so few is that in the past, the church commissioned for music to be written (i.e. Masses, Magnificats, Psalm settings, etc), but now, the sacred music has given in to the novelty of modern music publishers whose music is heard in the Novus Ordo, much of which isn’t even explicitly Catholic.

I’m currently an organist in training, and support use of the organ for Holy Mass, but prefer A Capella.

 

[benedictgal]

I don’t write music, play an instrument or even sing. I know nothing about music. I just enjoy it. But I have a question, which you may be able to answer. I bolded the part about which I’m asking. Do houses that publish religious music actually produce their own or is it like the secular music industry where someone walks in with a piece of music and they sell it to the house?

The reason I ask is because I’m wondering if there are any good composers out there who are composing music for the organ and the guitar and other instruments. I’m talking about good music that is obviously liturgical. I too have heard my fair share of horrible songs that are played on the guitar. But I don’t blame the musician playing it. I blame the writer and ask myself, “What was that person thinking?” LOL

Thanks for your response.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

GIA is far from perfect, but, at least Richard Proulx has some really good settings for the Mass. Bear in mind, though, that he writes mostly for the organ. From what I understand, he is the director of music for Holy Name Cathedral in Chicago. He has also composed arrangments for some other hymns as well. I am not sure if he has written anything outright.

The one bright light in the OCP mire is Fr. John Schiavone. His songs are also primarily for the organ and they are nice. As far as psalms in Spanish are concerned, Manuel Garcia is actually very good and his pieces are quite faithful to the text (most of the time). In fact, I am using one of his psalms for my cousin’s wedding Mass. As far as Spanish is concerned, Madruga (sp?) has a beautiful hymn called Donde Hay Caridad, which I am using for my cousin’s wedding, since I found out that her future husband’s kinfolk don’t speak English. We are probably going to go with Latin for the parts of the Mass (Liturgy of the Eucharist).

I did have a long talk with the USCCB about OCP and the descepancies between the parts of the Mass (specifically the Gloria) that the publisher puts out and what is written in the Roman Missal in Spanish. Since the Bishops Committee on Worship is essentially a two-man operation (with some help from other departments, but, not as big as the CDWDS), the Secretary told me that he would now have to examine things a lot more carefully. I also wrote to the chairman of the BCW to explain the situation to him.

The sad thing is that, regardless of whatever instrument is being used for these versions of the Gloria, thousands of unsuspecting parishes are using these settings and they don’t even match what is in the Roman Missal. For me, this issue is beyond the usage of a particular musical instrument. You could be using the organ and still have a bad paraphrase of the Gloria (which, according to Liturgiam Authenticam and RS, you are not supposed to be doing anyway).

 

[Layman]

Hmm… Yes, I suppose it does, doesn’t it?

I’ve always felt that we could learn a thing or two from our Protestant brothers and sisters. But as long as you are worshiping the one true God with all of your heart, what does it matter?

Well, that sounds nice, in theory. In practice:

1940: Pipe organ with male choir singing chant.
2009: Guitar with solo female singer singing pop hymns.

The latter might be tolerable if the former was widely available. But it ain’t.

As my father said to me, when I dared to wear a jazzy tie to a wedding: “Son, a wedding is a solemn occasion”. Mass is a propitiatory and supplicatory rite of a possibly-vengeful God. It’s serious business. I read online recently that the modern Church has been intent on skipping Easter and heading straight for Pentecost. I think that’s about right.

One of the things I like about the TLM is that it’s quiet, solemn and ‘bigger’ than the personalities of all involved. No bawling out (or droning) the hymns, no clapping or look-at-your-neighbour-in-the-sanctuary. Everyone face forward, doing their best not to be distracting, willing the thing on. Terrific.

 

[benedictgal]

Hmm… Yes, I suppose it does, doesn’t it?

I’ve always felt that we could learn a thing or two from our Protestant brothers and sisters. But as long as you are worshiping the one true God with all of your heart, what does it matter?

The problem is that what the Protestant ecclesial communities are doing and what the Church does are two entirely different things altogether. The Mass is not some “me and Jesus” in the corner experience.

The Church is a corporate being. By corporate, I do not mean corporation in the business sense of the word. Our worship, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, involves the Body of Christ, the entire Church in union with the Saints in heaven and the souls in purgatory and the angels, uniting our prayer with that of the celebrant, who acts in persona Christi.

The Church has her standards of worship, specifically for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. When we try to insert our personal idiosyncracies into the Holy Sacrifice, we have missed the point completely. We have misunderstood why we are there.

The Protestants only have the reading of the Word, a sermon and songs thrown in for good measure. That is what their service consists of for the most part. The Church as both the Word and the Sacrifice of Jesus. Week in and week out (or, in many cases for a lot of us, day in and day out), the veil between time and space and heaven and earth is lifted and we are there at Calvary. We are just as much there as were the Blessed Mother and Sts. John and Mary Magdalene. We are there in the upper room as were the 11. We are there at the empty tomb with the angels.

If we want to go for sheer emotionalism, then we have really missed the point as to why we are at Mass in the first place.

 

[JReducation]

The Protestant paradigm does not work in the Catholic Church, because our faith is one of Word and Sacrament. Their faith is based solely on the revealed Word.

Our liturgical expressoins have to be unitive in two directions. They have to bridge the two liturgies: Word and Eucharist. They have to bridge the two realities: temporal and eternal.

We use the four senses when we celebrate liturgy, where as the Protestant paradigm uses only one sense, the literal sense.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Guitar]

Unfortunately, a lot of the questionable stuff was composed with only the guitar in mind.

I personally haven’t seen anything composed with only the guitar in mind since the last time I heard a Medical Mission Sisters number.

All the music you (rightly) complain about that I am familiar with is idiomatically piano music, not guitar music, although of course some of it can be accompanied on guitar. But it is not musically correct to say it is composed only with guitar in mind.

It may be different for some of the Spanish material, of course, and you are way more familiar with that than I - I don’t live in Texas!

 

[Gertabelle]

Again, I personally worship more easily in a concert-like setting. This does not mean that everyone is standing there pretending that Mrs. Goodlady has an awsome voice, but rather, everyone is singing along, at the top of their lungs, from the bottom of their heart, hands outstretched, hands at your side, face to the sky, head bowed in awe, smile on your lips, tears on your cheeks, everyone worshiping the same God, no one embaaressed by anothers display because no one is paying attention to the others’ display, just you and Jesus and the song…

The problem is that what the Protestant ecclesial communities are doing and what the Church does are two entirely different things altogether. The Mass is not some “me and Jesus” in the corner experience.

The Church is a corporate being. By corporate, I do not mean corporation in the business sense of the word. Our worship, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, involves the Body of Christ, the entire Church in union with the Saints in heaven and the souls in purgatory and the angels, uniting our prayer with that of the celebrant, who acts in persona Christi.

The Church has her standards of worship, specifically for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. When we try to insert our personal idiosyncracies into the Holy Sacrifice, we have missed the point completely. We have misunderstood why we are there.

The Protestants only have the reading of the Word, a sermon and songs thrown in for good measure. That is what their service consists of for the most part. The Church as both the Word and the Sacrifice of Jesus. Week in and week out (or, in many cases for a lot of us, day in and day out), the veil between time and space and heaven and earth is lifted and we are there at Calvary. We are just as much there as were the Blessed Mother and Sts. John and Mary Magdalene. We are there in the upper room as were the 11. We are there at the empty tomb with the angels.

If we want to go for sheer emotionalism, then we have really missed the point as to why we are at Mass in the first place.

The Mass is not a worship service, per se. It is called the Holy Sacrifce of the Mass for a reason – because the bread and wine because the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus. As benedictgal points out, we who participate at mass are truly participating in the mystery of the last supper, the crucifixion, and the resurrection.

I also love to raise my hands, sing my heart out, be in a room full of people doing the same – but not at Mass. Singing like that focuses my mind on my emotions, my experience, how much I’m enjoying the whole thing (I love a good concert).

There is a time and place for jumping up and down, holding hands and swaying, raising our voices loud and full out. But the Mass is about joining Christ in the moment of His passion, death, and resurrection. This is not just singing about being there. The Mass is about being there.

Gertie

 

[JReducation]

The Mass is not a worship service, per se. It is called the Holy Sacrifce of the Mass for a reason – because the bread and wine because the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus. As benedictgal points out, we who participate at mass are truly participating in the mystery of the last supper, the crucifixion, and the resurrection.

I also love to raise my hands, sing my heart out, be in a room full of people doing the same – but not at Mass. Singing like that focuses my mind on my emotions, my experience, how much I’m enjoying the whole thing (I love a good concert).

There is a time and place for jumping up and down, holding hands and swaying, raising our voices loud and full out. But the Mass is about joining Christ in the moment of His passion, death, and resurrection. This is not just singing about being there. The Mass is about being there.

Gertie

But wait a minute. The fact that people raise their voice in song, raise their arms, etc, does not mean that they are not adoring God, which is what we do at mass.

Also, don’t limit the mass to the Eucharist. The mass is both Word and Sacrament. Both are equally important. It is praise and thanksgiving for the the act of redemption. We have to be very careful not to make others feel as if they are not worshiping properly because they raise their voices and hands at mass. That would be very uncharitable.

It is true that proper worship is not about emotions alone. But the senses and the emotions are certainly part of the contemplative experience. Just ask any monk or contemplative nun. As the saints. Many saints did some very strange things at mass. I’m trying to remember who it was that would levitate off the floor during the consecration. Saints have written with a great deal of emotion about their experience at mass.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[albertziggy]

please do forgive me if I am wrong but from reading what you write I get the impression you don’t have much exposure to the guitar/lute’s long history as an ensemble continuo instrument.

If you think strumming chords to a popular piece is all that constitutes guitar music outside the narrow confines of “classical guitar music” then there is an awful lot you are unaware of. (Of course, I recognise that you might just be commenting that this is all you have personally heard of guitars at Mass.)

the argument that there is a lot of bad guitar playing out there is a different argument altogether to whether guitar should be banned from Mass - there is an equal amount of bad organ playing out there and any number of atrocious “organs” for which the best possible liturgical use I can think of is kindling for the Pascal fire at the Easter Vigil.

Sergovia certainly has a high profile but he did not, contrary to much popular belief, “invent” guitar as a classical instrument.

Well, first of all, I hate to break it to you, too, but I DO know a great deal about the history of the guitar. I guess I did not want to elaborate much on it.

I was commenting on how the guitar is played in the parishes where I attended Mass. If there are parishes out there that play the guitar as tastefully as you claim, then well and good. Can’t argue about that!

I did not write that Segovia invented the guitar as a classical instrument, I meant that he was one of those who made it popular in the concert scene.

If I hurt you in any way, then I apologize, but I found your reply quite offensive. Please be more courteous next time.

albertziggy

 

[albertziggy]

I don’t know if you are aware of this, but there is a lot of early music written specifically for chamber music performances where the lute and other varieties of stringed instruments, as well as guitars, were the main solo instrument. I attend many Baroque chamber music concerts, as well as performed in little chamber concerts, and they will often times use these instruments.

Again, of course, there are many instances at mass where you get the really bad guitar players who give a horrible name to the instrument (just with any instrument - there have been a couple brides who will hire a string quartet or a harp over the organ because they have told me that the organist at their church plays atrociously and now cannot stand the sound of the organ). But when you have someone who knows what they are doing with the instrument and knows how to make it sound so that one does not equate it with secular music (which I think is the main problem why people are against guitars at mass and I can completely understand that - I don’t like how most guitars sound at mass, too, as many play them more like a secular instrument rather than sacred and of the Divine) then they are achieving something good. As many have already said, there are situations where a parish doesn’t have an organ, a working organ, an organist, etc. and if that parish is fortunate enough to have a classically trained guitarist at their fingertips, it would be loads better than to have a hack at the organ or the piano.

You are right, Ma’am. I like the sound of the guitar especially when it is played with other instruments as well. You made such good points.

Thank you very much.

In Christ,
albertziggy

 

[Guitar]

If I hurt you in any way, then I apologize, but I found your reply quite offensive. Please be more courteous next time.

albertziggy

And I found the tone of your first post offensive, though you did not hurt me, I am certain it was not your intent as you were not addressing me personally, and I meant you no personal offense. I did say “forgive me if I am wrong” in the post and I did mean it - it wasn’t a smart-alec remark. From Sarabande’s response, I wasn’t the only person with the impression I took from it.

“Back at you” on all points.

(I do assure you though, I sound nothing like Donovan. )

 

[albertziggy]

And I found the tone of your first post offensive, though you did not hurt me, I am certain it was not your intent as you were not addressing me personally, and I meant you no personal offense. I did say “forgive me if I am wrong” in the post and I did mean it - it wasn’t a smart-alec remark. From Sarabande’s response, I wasn’t the only person with the impression I took from it.

“Back at you” on all points.

(I do assure you though, I sound nothing like Donovan. )

Thank you very much for your response. I am glad to learn that you don’t sound like Donovan.

Hmm… I am curious about the guitar music you play. Is it on You tube? I guess we live in different places and that is the reason we differ in views. Well it’s nice ‘meeting’ you.

In Christ,

albertziggy

 

[pnewton]

, no one embaaressed by anothers display because no one is paying attention to the others’ display, just you and Jesus and the song…

I’ve always felt that we could learn a thing or two from our Protestant brothers and sisters.

I will agree with you that we truly can learn from those who are not Catholic. One thing we need to learn is that idea that music in Mass is supposed to corporate, not performance, whether the performance is from the “band” or a Gregorian choir. But we must also discern that which is appropriate and that which is not. Because of the same corporate nature of worship, our posture is specifically directed to be uniform. Nothing during Mass is just “me and Jesus.” Mass is Jesus and His Church.